British speedway: it's not all bad, you know!

[BWitcher]

3 hours ago, tmc said:

Figures often don't tell the full story, especially in this case. Thousands of Hammers fans have taken to social media all season to vent their disgust at how shabbily they are being treated by the owners, with many threatening not to renew their season tickets, claiming they have been "lied to". The owners are vilified and subjected to daily online abuse and, as of this week, a petition is running to have MD Karren Brady stripped of her newspaper column.

The atmosphere at the Athletics Stadium has been toxic for much of this depressing season.

The fact that there are new 'plastic' (and probably more gullible) fans/tourists ready to replace traditionalists like myself, and many thousands of others who are cheesed off about how money has morally corrupted the game, does NOT mean our club, or the game itself, is being run very well (which was my original point).

It just means that there are many thousands more football fans with a sheep mentality, who are prepared to tolerate being mugged off, compared to speedway followers.

In other words, you've had a bad season.

Happens with every football club. When things go bad the owners are the devil etc.

Then fans trot out the lines of 'plastic' as if nobody else is allowed to attend if they weren't at Roker Park on a cold Tuesday night in January in 1974 . 

Your argument was value for money. Yet now you are telling me that folk who aren't even West Ham fans are quite happy to turn up and fork out for this product that is not 'Value for Money'. 

[TonyMac]

4 hours ago, MattK said:

In a stadium which holds 57,000. I make that 99.8% full.

This suggests that in fact their ticket are too cheap and they could easily charge more and still sell out.

Of course, football clubs count season ticket sales even when the ST holders become so p***** off that they stop going, leaving empty seats.

[TonyMac]

2 hours ago, keepturningleft said:

It has been mentioned a few times on this forum about atmosphere making a huge contribution to the experience of live sport.
Recently I paid my first visit in living memory to a premier league football match, Huddersfield v Swansea to be precise.
The atmosphere and noise was incredible, but as Tony Mac alludes to, most of the time nothing really exciting is actually happening.
A huge cheer followed by fervent clapping as a player clears a ball away from danger – you would think the guy had just found a cure for some terrible disease.
If you saw that same action with the crowd removed, there would be literally nothing exciting about it at all!
In my opinion this partly explains the, ‘speedway was much better in my day’ viewpoint.
The atmosphere back in the 60’s and 70’s clearly was superb and added hugely to the experience even if the racing was poor.
A good example is the 1981 world final at Wembley.
A fantastic occasion, for sure, but count the overtakes. 
Not many, and yet this is one of speedways best remembered meetings because the occasion and crowd elevated it to something way beyond just the racing.

I knew some sense would break out amid the madness.

[TonyMac]

2 hours ago, BWitcher said:

In other words, you've had a bad season.

Happens with every football club. When things go bad the owners are the devil etc.

Then fans trot out the lines of 'plastic' as if nobody else is allowed to attend if they weren't at Roker Park on a cold Tuesday night in January in 1974 . 

Your argument was value for money. Yet now you are telling me that folk who aren't even West Ham fans are quite happy to turn up and fork out for this product that is not 'Value for Money'. 

Yes, they're officially mad, mate. Nutters the lot of 'em.

Although, you are probably right. Sullivan, Gold and Brady, those luvvable Eastenders ("cor blimey, don't we luv 'em") really are genuine nice guys and us mugs who have supported the team for 50 years have got them all wrong. They are charging the club silly amount of interest in personal loans, without investing any of their own money in the playing squad, and trading off the fans' blind loyalty for the sake of the TV money gravy train.

In fact, as Brady eluded to in her Scum column, it's the fans' fault that West Ham have had such a poor season.
 

[TonyMac]

On ‎15‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 12:41 AM, RobMcCaffery said:

It's sad (that was edited!) that a serious attempt to make a point about the relative state of speedway in response gets petty point-scoring drivel from the usual suspects. 

Tony mentioned that he couldn't comment on ice hockey. I don't have involvement with that sport these days but their league structure until recently has been similar to ours, with a small top division supported by a middle section of around a dozen clubs but then, unlike us, regionalised hockey in the third and fourth tiers. I noticed when taking a look at the structure during the winter that their second tier appeared to have self-destructed with the former members now picking up the pieces in the regionalised minor leagues. 

Yes, we're not the only sport with problems but we are the only one where it ios pressures from overseas that are damaging the sport domestically. I've said before the BSPA has its great limitations but I rather feel sorry for them trying to face up to the onslaught of Poland, BSI and One Sport and having to surrender weekends for the top tier in response. They weren't really equipped for the battle. 

Football is a sport apart, if only for the money. You only have to look at the success of Manchester City and Chelsea, backed up by virtually unlimited subsidy from private individuals and their businesses to see that the sport side is rapidly disappearing. Sadly football has been relentlessly hyped so far in the 25 years since it sold its soul to Murdoch that normal economic factors are long gone. Despite protests the clubs can practically charge what they like and run up debts with impunity that they can walk away from, just creating new phoenix clubs where necessary when it gets too bad. 

People though let them get away with it because football is simply too important to them, and they will put up with anything and pay anything for their 'fix'. I use that last word carefully. 

Yes, UK speedway's in a state, but it's far from being all the BSPA's fault. With skills which they sadly don't possess they might have been able to deflect some of the harm done by foreign pay-days but. in reality they were on a hiding to nothing. 

It might help if the 'supporters' who mouth off here might actually see the bigger picture than whingeing about 'watered down' leagues and accepted that structural change is sadly vital and on the whole we simply can't afford to pay the top talent, although some are somehow finding the cash. More fool them. 

It's time for the genuine speedway fans to stand by their sport, make allowances and for those who are simply in it for championships and the 'glamour' of names to let the rest of us try to enjoy what we still have and work to rebuild the sport rather than play pathetic 'whooshing' and 'fishing' games in this forum. The BSF should be a sounding board for ideas to rescue and rebuild UK speedway. Sadly it seems that's beyond the playground mentalities of too many 'heroes' hiding behind their hilarious false names.  

 

 

 

I think sensible people are too often wasting their breath on here, Rob. I'm with you.

Too many clueless idiots who offer no cohesive arguments using the forum as their personal attention-seeking platform.

If the cap fits, wear it.

Edited May 15, 2018 by tmc

[The Doctor...]

8 hours ago, BWitcher said:

It really does destroy any semblance of an argument when you try and take a pop at football when discussing speedway's ills.

If you think West Ham are worth watching, think again! you say..

With a POOR side they averaged 56,885 this season!!!

 

 

That's tickets sold.  

Not attendance, nor anything that can be genuinely put down as attendance. 

Anyway

 

 

[orion]

5 hours ago, tmc said:

I think sensible people are too often wasting their breath on here, Rob. I'm with you.

Too many clueless idiots who offer no cohesive arguments using the forum as their personal attention-seeking platform.

If the cap fits, wear it.

People have giving plenty of cohesive arguments on this subject you keep trying to pan football is not one of them ..You and Rob have one thing in common the moment someone  have another  opinion to you the toys come out of the pram and you  start running the forum down .

As for attention seeking platform I would say Rob ranks at the top of this Forum for that 

[iris123]

You could say,speedway isn’t all bad,but the things that are,are pretty bad.Whereas although football has its problems,a lot of which lie with FIFA and are out of our control,speedway would love to be in that situation.

Does it help in anyway to look and say oh it ain’t so bad look at the problems other sports face?Would it help fans of a football club that went to the wall to say,lots of speedway clubs have been down that road?

Football had big problems in the past and has improved and moved others the times,something speedway has failed to do

[IainB]

19 hours ago, waytogo28 said:

The FRN switch was designed to bring in more star riders and that has been a failure. Also it planned to cut down dramatically on guests and r/r - not yet done much of that I feel, But worst of all supporters were not canvassed as they should have been in the last couple of months of last season. And Hey Ho a lot of fans don't like the night they have been forced onto  - no surprise there then. It's our money and our life choices. And look at a Monday night ( and on TV) at Belle Vue - less than 1,000 there ( at full price ) King's Lynn have suffered more than others ( it seems ) with the highest number of Danish riders and running on a Weds. If all of these promoters are successful businesspeople in the outside world why do come across as so inept when running speedway? 

I'm not sure but I thought the FRN was brought in not to attract GP riders back but to combat the effects of DU, or why then limit clubs to 1 rider over 8 points? But who knows with the BSPA!! Agree with everything else though. Most things I find, don't look too great when you put them under scrutiny and start trying to apply fixes. Look at Football and the VAR thing, a lot of your die hards are up in arms about it, a lot of your floaters (me included) couldn't really give a toss about it as long as we see a good game... but start piling fix upon fix upon fix and the product starts to look less and less attractive.

In the last week I have been to Sheffield, Peterborough (Twice), Leicester and watched the GP on TV... and there was not a lot wrong with any of them, nice weather, good racing (Leicester the exception, obviously!) on well prepared tracks, with full line-ups but in front of woeful crowds (not GP).

Having watched the sport deteriorate over the last 40 years I once wanted to see the top GP riders back in the BL, I've now come to terms that that's not going to happen in the foreseeable future, what I've realised was bothering me more recently was the DU of riders, the authorities have put actions in place to remedy this and from what I can see so far this season it seems to be working, yes you can question the FRN that they picked but I believe the concept is right while DU is in place, all they need to do now is choose the correct FRN's. I see Rory Schlein is running a pole on Twitter suggesting Friday and Saturday, which does seem to make more sense than Monday and Wednesday.

15 heats, 4 riders, 4 laps, settled 7 man teams, riding Friday & Saturday on a well prepared track, all done in 90 minutes, with 3 points for a win and an aggregate bonus point and a TS whenever 6 down... it really should be that simple!

Edited May 16, 2018 by iainb

[BWitcher]

9 hours ago, tmc said:

I think sensible people are too often wasting their breath on here, Rob. I'm with you.

Too many clueless idiots who offer no cohesive arguments using the forum as their personal attention-seeking platform.

If the cap fits, wear it.

You really shouldn't talk about yourself that way.

You're airing your opinion, others are airing theirs. It's discussion.

 

[BWitcher]

7 hours ago, The Doctor... said:

That's tickets sold.  

Not attendance, nor anything that can be genuinely put down as attendance. 

Anyway

 

 

Agree, the argument was simply over whether football provides value for money. Clearly it does.

West Ham has it's own individual problems with their owners but that is a separate issue, but even TMC has stated that tickets would be bought by others if available anyway. 

[waytogo28]

5 hours ago, iainb said:

15 heats, 4 riders, 4 laps, settled 7 man teams, riding Friday & Saturday on a well prepared track, all done in 90 minutes, with 3 points for a win and an aggregate bonus point and a TS whenever 6 down... it really should be that simple!

Yes that would likely re-invigorate my appetite for speedway. Sadly, it is likely to remain a dream. Unless of course the BSPA collectively or a clear thinking independent speedway co-ordinator was put in place to move towards that next season. If it remains FRN for Mon / Weds for the Premier League there will no longer be Danish riders in teams. And another loss of regular attending supporters falling away from the sport in the UK. It just seems so poor that it takes something to go really wrong in practice to illustrate that rules were never thought through clearly before implementation.

Edited May 16, 2018 by waytogo28
oops spelling

[Halifaxtiger]

On ‎16‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 8:30 AM, iris123 said:

You could say,speedway isn’t all bad,but the things that are,are pretty bad.Whereas although football has its problems,a lot of which lie with FIFA and are out of our control,speedway would love to be in that situation.

Does it help in anyway to look and say oh it ain’t so bad look at the problems other sports face?Would it help fans of a football club that went to the wall to say,lots of speedway clubs have been down that road?

Football had big problems in the past and has improved and moved others the times,something speedway has failed to do

I'm not sure that's totally true, Iris. As I pointed out earlier, in 2015/16 (which I believe to be the most up to date figures) the Premier League collectively lost over £100m and the Championship over £200m. Even if their average gates are 100 times speedway's (and they are not) that means to be on equivalent financial footing speedway would be losing £1m or £2m a season respectively. I don't think the later, certainly, is anywhere near the case.

There's no doubt that football - especially at top flight - has enjoyed a renaissance and gates are booming and I'd say speedway has reason to be jealous of that. But the simple truth is that football is far more hamstrung to the generosity of individuals than speedway is even when that is in taken in proportion and I could make fair argument that football clubs are far more financially irresponsible than speedway teams. Awash with money, they are still losing huge amounts.

I think you are right  - it certainly doesn't help the plight of speedway to point to the fact that others are no better (my understanding is that Rugby League has money issues, too). But if it were the case that others had huge - or even small - surpluses it would give far more credence to the fact that speedway is badly run.  

Edited May 17, 2018 by Halifaxtiger

[Halifaxtiger]

On ‎16‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 9:49 AM, iainb said:

I'm not sure but I thought the FRN was brought in not to attract GP riders back but to combat the effects of DU, or why then limit clubs to 1 rider over 8 points? But who knows with the BSPA!! Agree with everything else though. Most things I find, don't look too great when you put them under scrutiny and start trying to apply fixes. Look at Football and the VAR thing, a lot of your die hards are up in arms about it, a lot of your floaters (me included) couldn't really give a toss about it as long as we see a good game... but start piling fix upon fix upon fix and the product starts to look less and less attractive.

In the last week I have been to Sheffield, Peterborough (Twice), Leicester and watched the GP on TV... and there was not a lot wrong with any of them, nice weather, good racing (Leicester the exception, obviously!) on well prepared tracks, with full line-ups but in front of woeful crowds (not GP).

Having watched the sport deteriorate over the last 40 years I once wanted to see the top GP riders back in the BL, I've now come to terms that that's not going to happen in the foreseeable future, what I've realised was bothering me more recently was the DU of riders, the authorities have put actions in place to remedy this and from what I can see so far this season it seems to be working, yes you can question the FRN that they picked but I believe the concept is right while DU is in place, all they need to do now is choose the correct FRN's. I see Rory Schlein is running a pole on Twitter suggesting Friday and Saturday, which does seem to make more sense than Monday and Wednesday.

15 heats, 4 riders, 4 laps, settled 7 man teams, riding Friday & Saturday on a well prepared track, all done in 90 minutes, with 3 points for a win and an aggregate bonus point and a TS whenever 6 down... it really should be that simple!

Where attendances are concerned, I don't think the night on which speedway meetings take place can be underestimated. I am advised that Belle Vue's gates have dropped significantly since they moved to Mondays and its not difficult to work out why. The difference between the huge gate on Bank Holiday Monday and a week later was stark.

That final paragraph looks pretty  attractive to me - although I'd be happy to include Thursdays as well. Getting 5 hours sleep at the start of the week is one thing, getting it at the end is another.

[BWitcher]

10 minutes ago, Halifaxtiger said:

I'm not sure that's totally true, Iris. As I pointed out earlier, in 2015/16 (which I believe to be the most up to date figures) the Premier League collectively lost over £100m and the Championship over £200m. Even if their average gates are 100 times speedway's (and they are not) that means to be on equivalent financial footing each speedway club would be losing £1m or £2m a season respectively. I don't believe there's a speedway club that loses one tenth of the latter at least. 

There's no doubt that football - especially at top flight - has enjoyed a renaissance and gates are booming and I'd say speedway has reason to be jealous of that. But the simple truth is that football is far more hamstrung to the generosity of individuals than speedway is, even when that is in taken in proportion.

I think you are right  - it certainly doesn't help the plight of speedway to point to the fact that others are no better (my understanding is that Rugby League has money issues, too). But if it were the case that others had huge - or even small - surpluses it would give far more credence to the fact that speedway is badly run.  

Not the most up to date figures HT

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-43820603

2016/17 saw Premier League clubs record a profit of £500 million. All 20 clubs made an operating profit, 18 made pre-tax profit.

Premier League clubs have made a profit in three of the last four years. 

[Halifaxtiger]

2 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

Not the most up to date figures HT

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-43820603

2016/17 saw Premier League clubs record a profit of £500 million. All 20 clubs made an operating profit, 18 made pre-tax profit.

Premier League clubs have made a profit in three of the last four years. 

It would be interesting to see how Championship clubs are doing.

[BWitcher]

4 minutes ago, Halifaxtiger said:

It would be interesting to see how Championship clubs are doing.

Championship clubs are generally chasing the dream, to get into the Premier League and reap the rewards of the TV money. There is no such dream or opportunity in speedway.

Speedway's issue is fans walking away and not being replaced, a continual process that gets worse each and every year.

Every year new excuses are looked for.. and some of them such as constant weakening of the league, race nights etc can play a part but the issue that simply can't be escaped is the age of speedway fans continues to rise and through sheer natural wastage the sport has no future.. unless it can generate a healthy supply of younger supporters to take their place.

[keepturningleft]

 

On 5/14/2018 at 5:55 PM, tmc said:

The following lines from a David Bowie song may prove to be prophetic.

"We've got five years, my brain hurts a lot.

We've got five years, that's all we've got.

 

[iris123]

Just to add to my earlier post,it was in the paper today that Hamburg(thought it might be,as I mentioned)will not allow 750 fans to renew their season tickets as they didn’t in the clubs opinion,use them often enough.It seems they have over 2000 people on the waiting list

[Halifaxtiger]

17 hours ago, BWitcher said:

Championship clubs are generally chasing the dream, to get into the Premier League and reap the rewards of the TV money. There is no such dream or opportunity in speedway.

Speedway's issue is fans walking away and not being replaced, a continual process that gets worse each and every year.

Every year new excuses are looked for.. and some of them such as constant weakening of the league, race nights etc can play a part but the issue that simply can't be escaped is the age of speedway fans continues to rise and through sheer natural wastage the sport has no future.. unless it can generate a healthy supply of younger supporters to take their place.

Bearing in mind that they have run up debts of over £1bn in attempting to chase the dream, perhaps its not such a bad thing that speedway doesn't have it.   

I also am sceptical about the increasing age of speedway fans - at least to the extent that many people on here believe that to be the case. The promoter I contacted regarding this issue told me that less than 10% of his attendances are pensioners.

Returning to the actual title thread, I doubt if there is anyone who went to Redcar last night who would disagree.