Regulation 18.14.3 and the Rule Book

[steve roberts]

Interesting to read Swindon's Alun Rossiter's comment in the latest 'Star' over the wording of the above rule (number of rides)..."How do they come up with theses rules."

"The trouble is it's the way it's worded in the rulebook. It's wrong, but is was very frustrating (recent encounter against Leicester), the ref was going by the letter of the book and again the SCB are bringing out so many amendments it's unreal.They write a rule and there is an amendment, all I get coming thru' is amendments, nearly every week, it's crazy. How can it be? We've got to get it right and then wonder why people get infuriated."

The rule book has always been open to interpretation and created issues down the years and it appears to continue to do so.

Edited May 2, 2018 by steve roberts

[Grachan]

So we have 18.14.3, which says: "A Team Member (#1 – 5) is subject to a maximum of 4 programmed rides, with the possibility of one nomination as an RR (or IRR or TS) and for Heat 15. "

And we have 18.12.2, which states: "A Tactical Substitute... Allows a programmed rider (including a rider taking an RR or an IRR) to be nominated as a TS."

So, a rider can be used as a Tactical Substitute in an R/R ride, which, surely (it always did before anyway) would allow them to take a TS ride plus a R/R ride.

But 18.4.3 seems to indicate that a rider cannot take a TS AND a R/R ride. Surely this is not what they mean. It pretty much stops you using a Tac Sub in a match if you are using R/R for someone.

At Leicester, Swindon were prevented from using Troy Bachelor as a TS in an R/R ride.

 

Edited May 2, 2018 by Grachan

[steve roberts]

2 hours ago, Grachan said:

So we have 18.14.3, which says: "A Team Member (#1 – 5) is subject to a maximum of 4 programmed rides, with the possibility of one nomination as an RR (or IRR or TS) and for Heat 15. "

And we have 18.12.2, which states: "A Tactical Substitute... Allows a programmed rider (including a rider taking an RR or an IRR) to be nominated as a TS."

So, a rider can be used as a Tactical Substitute in an R/R ride, which, surely (it always did before anyway) would allow them to take a TS ride plus a R/R ride.

But 18.4.3 seems to indicate that a rider cannot take a TS AND a R/R ride. Surely this is not what they mean. It pretty much stops you using a Tac Sub in a match if you are using R/R for someone.

At Leicester, Swindon were prevented from using Troy Bachelor as a TS in an R/R ride.

 

...who'd be a Team Manager! I recall John Louis being quoted in an interview who was unimpressed with constant rule changing as was the late Bernard Crapper.

[Grachan]

It's been going on for years. I once bought a copy of the 1967 rules on ebay and it contained loads of typed out amendments, on sheets of paper which were just folded up and put inside the actual book.

[steve roberts]

1 hour ago, Grachan said:

It's been going on for years. I once bought a copy of the 1967 rules on ebay and it contained loads of typed out amendments, on sheets of paper which were just folded up and put inside the actual book.

When I bought a rule book many years ago now it was ambiguous in some places and left to all sorts of interpretation...and certain Team Managers were able to use that to their advantage and Ian Thomas comes straight to mind!

[racers and royals]

6 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

When I bought a rule book many years ago now it was ambiguous in some places and left to all sorts of interpretation...and certain Team Managers were able to use that to their advantage and Ian Thomas comes straight to mind!

Rider replacement for Tara O`Callaghan for most of the season also springs to mind.

[steve roberts]

9 minutes ago, racers and royals said:

Rider replacement for Tara O`Callaghan for most of the season also springs to mind.

Recall Ian Thomas using R/R for the retired Robbie Gardner (even though he was fourth in the averages) until Teesside's Tony Coupland decided enough was enough!

[woofers]

On 02/05/2018 at 9:00 AM, steve roberts said:

Interesting to read Swindon's Alun Rossiter's comment in the latest 'Star' over the wording of the above rule (number of rides)..."How do they come up with theses rules."

 

Probably because they are unpaid, unprofessional and just reacting to a situation. They haven't the time (or ability ?) to think things through or consider various scenario's on how that rule my be interpreted or acted upon. And they are not an independent body, so they are unable / unwilling to consider the ramifications of their actions outside their own interests.

And that's why speedway is considered a mickey mouse, joke 'sport' and why people are walking away from it, let alone joining.

I know it's a touchy subject on here, but just look at the difference in the running and professionalism of the GP series compared with league speedway.

[Gordon Pairman]

The article in the Star contained an error when it said that SR 18.14.3 states “A team member (#1-5) is subject to a maximum of four rides.....” The rule actually said “A team member (#1-5) is subject to a maximum of four PROGRAMMED (my capitals) rides....”

I can’t comment on the Leicester vs Swindon match as I don’t know the details but there has been a clarification issued by SCB that, in addition to the four programmed rides, a rider can also be nominated for any of RR, IRR, TS and heat 15 subject to having a maximum of 7 rides. 

[dontforgetthefueltapsbruv]

Cam Heeps took rr irr and heat 15 tonight

It was only cup rules preventing him from getting the full set with a ts 

[Gordon Pairman]

2 hours ago, dontforgetthefueltapsbruv said:

Cam Heeps took rr irr and heat 15 tonight

It was only cup rules preventing him from getting the full set with a ts 

Except he’d already had seven rides (update site is wrong) so, if it had been a league match, he couldn’t have done a TS as well. He rode in heats 3,5,6,8,9,12 & 15 scoring 1,3,2,3,1+1,3,1 for 14+1

[mikebv]

'Each rider can have a maximum of seven rides per meeting'...

'Each rider must have a minimum three rides per meeting, unless signed off by the track medical team with illness or injury before he has completed those three rides'...

'A rider excluded from any race for a starting offence will not have this race counted towards his minimum three races'..

Would that not cover it? The details of complying with the who, what, why, when, would be down then to the Team Manager's tactics for the various different scenarios that Speedway present.. (RR/IRR/TS/Reserve rides)...

It would also prevent any 'professional fouls' by deliberately getting exclusions to bring better replacements in..

Seven rides max, three rides minimum.... 

Next.....

Edited May 4, 2018 by mikebv

[dontforgetthefueltapsbruv]

5 hours ago, Gordon Pairman said:

Except he’d already had seven rides (update site is wrong) so, if it had been a league match, he couldn’t have done a TS as well. He rode in heats 3,5,6,8,9,12 & 15 scoring 1,3,2,3,1+1,3,1 for 14+1

Very true Mr P

It was a long and unusual night so please forgive me!

My post was very much backing yours that 1 of any of the option does not prevent the use of the other (subject to the 7 rides max of course )

[MattK]

The supplementary rule is even more confusing:

Quote

 

18.14 Rider Eligibility

18.14.3 A Team Member (1 to 5) is subject to a maximum of 4 programmed rides, with the possibility of One nomination as a R/R, IRR, TS and or for Heat 15, but can only have a maximum of 7 rides.

 

How is it possible for a rider to have 7 rides, when the most they can have is 4 programmed rides, plus one as an R/R, IRR or TS and one for Heat 15?

[racers and royals]

16 minutes ago, MattK said:

The supplementary rule is even more confusing:

How is it possible for a rider to have 7 rides, when the most they can have is 4 programmed rides, plus one as an R/R, IRR or TS and one for Heat 15?

That’s what all the fuss is about if they meet the criterion they can have 4 programmed plus tac sub plus R/R plus IRR plus heat 15 as long as it is 7 rides max.

[MattK]

1 minute ago, racers and royals said:

That’s what all the fuss is about if they meet the criterion they can have 4 programmed plus tac sub plus R/R plus IRR plus heat 15 as long as it is 7 rides max.

My interpretation of:

Quote

with the possibility of One nomination as a R/R, IRR, TS

is that you can have one nomination as an R/R or IRR or TS, not one of each. I assumed the supplementary rule was clarifying the original rule, not changing it.

[racers and royals]

20 minutes ago, MattK said:

My interpretation of:

is that you can have one nomination as an R/R or IRR or TS, not one of each. I assumed the supplementary rule was clarifying the original rule, not changing it.

SR1807 amendment(clarifaction) has been issued and there is NO word OR in the sentance (R/R  TS IRR) then it says and or heat 15

Edited May 4, 2018 by racers and royals

[dontforgetthefueltapsbruv]

1 hour ago, MattK said:

My interpretation of:

is that you can have one nomination as an R/R or IRR or TS, not one of each. I assumed the supplementary rule was clarifying the original rule, not changing it.

As I mentioned above Cam Heeps took an IRR and a RR and a heat 15 last night so its certainly 1 of each allowed. Taking 1 option does not exclude another

[Daniel Smith]

5 hours ago, dontforgetthefueltapsbruv said:

As I mentioned above Cam Heeps took an IRR and a RR and a heat 15 last night so its certainly 1 of each allowed. Taking 1 option does not exclude another

I believe IRR isn't allowed if RR is already in operation. 

If a team is using R/R and a rider gets injured, the injured rider's rides can only be taken by reserves or 3 rider only heats.

[racers and royals]

Just now, Daniel Smith said:

I believe IRR isn't allowed if RR is already in operation. 

If a team is using R/R and a rider gets injured, the injured rider's rides can only be taken by reserves or 3 rider only heats.

Wrong