Thursday night speedway at swindon

[Call me wolfie]

2 hours ago, Fred Flange said:

According to one of the Belle Vue fans Facebook pages crowds are well down so far this season. Well it is what you would expect isn't it?

http://www.speedway-forum.co.uk/forums/index.php?/topic/85588-agm/&do=findComment&comment=3058761

http://www.speedway-forum.co.uk/forums/index.php?/topic/84872-bt-sport-coverage/&do=findComment&comment=3054688

There was a dramatic drop in crowds at the dog track when they switched from Friday to Monday, even Tony Mole couldn't make Mondays work at Belle Vue!

Extensive research was done to establish the best nights for speedway in the early planning for the new stadium, Monday was the worst option by a huge margin.

You only have to look at the only Monday night track before this season to confirm the futility of running on a Monday, that club only uses a little terrace on the home straight (the same model Belle Vue use for The Colts!) and they can't even fill that!

We already know that wolves have a desperate financial position, I expect at least one of the teams forced to run on the graveyard night will not be running on a Monday next season.

It was never going to be easy to pick fixed nights to suit everyone but having worked with the Danes (if they did?) to enable Wednesday's they should have worked with the poles and the Fri CL teams to allow Fridays leaving Thursday as an 'off night' option. 

I predicted Mondays wouldn't work and it seems I may be right again.

Oh dear, here we go again, I really don't know where you get this idea that Wolves have a desparate financial position. Okay, so we didn't go for Freddie this year. This was partly due to his high average and partly to do with the uncertainty over the BT coverage. If anything crowds have been noticeably up over the first couple of meetings, I suggest you worry about your own team and stop spreading malicious rumours without foundation. Desparate financial position no, astute financial management yes

[hyderd]

On 4/25/2018 at 5:19 PM, Call me wolfie said:

Oh dear, here we go again, I really don't know where you get this idea that Wolves have a desparate financial position. Okay, so we didn't go for Freddie this year. This was partly due to his high average and partly to do with the uncertainty over the BT coverage. If anything crowds have been noticeably up over the first couple of meetings, I suggest you worry about your own team and stop spreading malicious rumours without foundation. Desparate financial position no, astute financial management yes

If Friday night's were an option and all clubs could race on said night, then I wonder if all clubs would see an increase in attendance.

[Aces51]

11 minutes ago, hyderd said:

If Friday night's were an option and all clubs could race on said night, then I wonder if all clubs would see an increase in attendance.

There may be particular circumstances why that may not be true for some teams and of course it is not an option for some because of their landlords but generally I have no doubt that Friday would be more successful. The entertainment industry has always operated on the basis that Fiday and Saturday are their busiest days and many feel the need to offer incentives to try to attract people during the week and particularly on Mondays.

However, to accommodate Friday we would have to use only riders prepared to commit to giving priority to the UK.

Edited April 29, 2018 by Aces51

[Midland Red]

3 hours ago, Aces51 said:

There may be particular circumstances why that may not be true for some teams and of course it is not an option for some because of their landlords but generally I have no doubt that Friday would be more successful. The entertainment industry has always operated on the basis that Fiday and Saturday are their busiest days and many feel the need to offer incentives to try to attract people during the week and particularly on Mondays.

However, to accommodate Friday we would have to use only riders prepared to commit to giving priority to the UK.

That's exactly what UK speedway needs - riders prepared to commit to giving priority to the UK

Bring on the 'British League',  teams to ride on the nights of their own choice and every week

[Aces51]

I don't think you can judge by last Monday alone. It was not the most attractive opposition and rain falling for over an hour in the couple of hours before start time didn't help. I also think 800 would be at the bottom end of the crowd estimates but it was definitely a poor crowd.

However, Friday is a much better night both for families and because fans have not already spent whatever money they have spare for leisure activities. Monday meetings will also have to compete against televised meetings when they start in a few weeks time. I think having to race on Monday is going to make it very difficult to match, let alone increase the crowds we had last year.

[Catalan]

1 hour ago, Fred Flange said:

More talk about this season's crowds at Belle Vue on one of the fans Facebook pages. A former rider who starred in this meeting 

https://youtube.com/watch?v=RTSgYofMZ6U

is asking. Apparently there were only 800 there on Monday!!

Advanced sales were regularly over 1000 for Friday meetings last season and the season before.

Good old buster has cocked it up AGAIN!

I'm not a fan of his but how the hell is Buster to blame for this?

[mikebv]

On Sunday, April 29, 2018 at 10:57 AM, hyderd said:

If Friday night's were an option and all clubs could race on said night, then I wonder if all clubs would see an increase in attendance.

Don't think there is any doubt...

Friday, Saturday, Sunday are the best days to attract a crowd if you run a Sport, or are in the Entertainment and Leisure industry, (Speedway you would say ticks both boxes)..

No surprise therefore that Poland run on these nights and at the meeting to agree each Countries race nights they didn't suggest Britain takes their days' over and that they would run Monday/Thursday (or even Wednesday as it transpired)...

If Mondays were such a great night to attract a Speedway crowd you would have to think the Poles would have ensured they took it...

British Speedway simply cannot compete with Poland so shouldnt even give it a consideration and plough it's own furrow..

Run at the weekend with lads who are happy earning a 'normal' job's weekly wage for four or five races a night..

Run with lads who reside over here to keep hotel and air fare costs out of the equation and, if needs be, run with five or six man teams to shave even more off the expenditure..

And run consistently, either once a week, or once a fortnight if all the League runs on the same night...

Do that and maybe admission fees could gradually come down to attract even more numbers through the gate to add to what 'Weekend Speedway' would bring. 

It would be a lot easier to sell the sport media wise, and market it nationally collectively, (rather than individually) too, having a full fixture list over say three days, rather than the fragmented way it is currently ran..

Edited April 30, 2018 by mikebv

[RobMcCaffery]

2 hours ago, mikebv said:

Don't think there is any doubt...

Friday, Saturday, Sunday are the best days to attract a crowd if you run a Sport, or are in the Entertainment and Leisure industry, (Speedway you would say ticks both boxes)..

No surprise therefore that Poland run on these nights and at the meeting to agree each Countries race nights they didn't suggest Britain takes them over and that they would run Monday/Thursday (or even Wednesday as it transpired)...

If Mondays were such a great night to attract a Speedway crowd you would have to think the Poles would have ensured they took it...

British Speedway simply cannot compete with Poland so shouldnt even give it a consideration and plough it's own furrow..

Run at the weekend with lads who are happy earning a 'normal' job's weekly wage for four or five races a night..

Run with lads who reside over here to keep hotel and air fare costs out of the equation and, if needs be, run with five or six man teams to shave even more off the expenditure..

And run consistently, either once a week, or once a fortnight if all the League runs on the same night...

Do that and maybe admission fees could gradually come down to attract even more numbers through the gate to add to what 'Weekend Speedway' would bring. 

It would be a lot easier to sell the sport media wise, and market it nationally collectively rather than individually too, having a full fixture list over say three days rather than the fragmented way it is currently ran..

I think you're exactly right but the key problem will be persuading those who worship 'names' that this right. We need, sadly, to isolate ourselves from Poland before their needs and demands destroy what remains of British Speedway. 

Unfortunately losing the remaining 'names' is probably too much for the short-sighted that post here. 

People believed the fairy tale that switching to fixed nights would bring back the 'names'. It didn't, only money and the occasional bout of loyalty (c.f. Jason Doyle) will. We need to rebuild and get our weekends back. All we are doing now is retreating to accommodate the needs of the Poles and their chequebooks. 

[g13webb]

MikeBV,   As a seasoned  diehard speedway nut I too have very often spent hours delving into the reasons, this sport of our, has descended into the state it is. It was refreshing to read your post  out-lining the numerous problems thus showing that I am not the only one who thinks along them same lines.    For many years I have thought it was ludicrous that we should try and compete with them Poles .  We have neither the power or popularity needed to do that,  yet we continue to try.... Rider and machines have become too expensive  for Promoters to arrange race meetings witnessed by a mere 1000 die-hard fans.   This is a recipe for disaster, a sure-fire financial suicidal exercise that has all but killed the sport.

The main reasons our sport cant attract new fans are Cost;  VFM and  Organisation.   Expecting fans to pay £18 for 15 mins racing of riders, most of whom aren't top level, is way over the top.  ( that's twice as much as the Polish charge to see top quality riders),    Joe Public wouldn't tell the difference between Jason Doyle or Joe Bloggs so it ridiculous charging those expensive rates.     VFM is just as important but again  little importance is put toward the evening entertainment.  It seems we are expected to pay to come in and then they forget about you..   Organisation is a joke,    Sometimes we race on a Monday, next it might be Wednesday,  before this year, it could have been any day.   Sometime we race every week sometimes it only once a month. IT has been known to have 3 meetings in a week, sometimes 2 meeting on the same day.,.   You cant imagine what a distraction that is.  That wouldn't attract customers in a million years,  but that is not important to them. 

Sometimes I think the BSPA haven't got a clue..       The only section to benefit from the way our sport is run is the riders....     and all they do is hold their hand out...

Like you both say,     the only salvation I can see is to  separate ourselves from the other countries and run our own sport at a cost that the fans can afford on the days it best suited to gain maximum exposure.....

We cannot afford to compete with the likes of Poland and Sweden anymore....

 

 

[Hawk127]

36 minutes ago, RobMcCaffery said:

I think you're exactly right but the key problem will be persuading those who worship 'names' that this right. We need, sadly, to isolate ourselves from Poland before their needs and demands destroy what remains of British Speedway. 

Unfortunately losing the remaining 'names' is probably too much for the short-sighted that post here. 

People believed the fairy tale that switching to fixed nights would bring back the 'names'. It didn't, only money and the occasional bout of loyalty (c.f. Jason Doyle) will. We need to rebuild and get our weekends back. All we are doing now is retreating to accommodate the needs of the Poles and their chequebooks. 

The custodians of our sport are taking it to the brink of extinction. No other nation gives a fig about British Speedway, most promoters don’t give a fig about the supporters and if you read through the various threads a lot of the diehards (those in their 50’s and 60’s)  are giving up. The armchair follower is now voting by not turning up to live meetings. TV cannot be blamed, if it is why do the Poles still have large contingents of very vocal support when a meeting is televised. It is primarily down to lack of weekly racing, early call offs and fans short changed with a mediocre product. The powers that be have in one swoop brought speedway to its knees with the last BSPA conference and it is baffling how these so called business people can be so blind as to not see what they are doing. Have they got more money than sense. Get back to basics and start again putting British racing first and if they want to compete again on the international front have test matches in this country but give the sport back to its fans.

[RobMcCaffery]

Pre 1990 it was only the communist isolation of Poland and the consequent lack of hard currency there that held them back in terms of world speedway, and I'm not necessarily talking about the riders and their equipment.

Under the planned economy sport was tightly regulated and highly subsidised. In a society where consumer goods were partly-restricted or extremely expensive sport was a cheap way to enjoy life. Speedway in Poland, raced in stadia usually built with public money, attracted huge crowds even back then and once the old system fell and Poland could trade in hard currency the floodgates opened to hiring foreign talent to entertain their huge crowds. 

The explosion of conversion to a western consumer society saw a wave of controversially-regulated opportunism in business and sport now saw the benefits of sponsorship and large TV audiences to back up the crowds in the stadia. With that momentum it's no surprise that Polish Speedway now dominates and that with all of their money on offer they wanted to expand from just one day a week racing to a full weekend. Sadly, weakened by the BSI calendar robbing us of Saturdays and many Fridays it's Britain that's had to give way. We used to be the honey pot for riders, now it's Poland and we're left with the wreckage. 

There are many reasons for the success of Polish Speedway and the failure of the British version and it is far wider than us having bad promoters and them having great ones. Despite the wealth over there there has been a disgusting trail of unpaid debts caused by insanely false promises. You could understand British promoters struggling to pay their commitments but not a Polish equivalent with 10,000+ crowds!

We cannot compete with Poland and it's not all about BSPA incompetence. Wouldn't it be great if we had local government, sponsors and thousands of customers paying for great stadia? Apart from the case of Belle Vue we don't and have to get by with what we have. 

If we can't compete we must isolate and rebuild under our own terms. We must not have our best tracks racing on the worst nights. 

Edited April 29, 2018 by RobMcCaffery

[mikebv]

5 hours ago, RobMcCaffery said:

 

If we can't compete we must isolate and rebuild under our own terms. We must not have our best tracks racing on the worst nights. 

Spot on...

Very, very basic business practice for those entities that rely on the patronage and footfall of individuals to be succesful, is that they need to be open when their customers can get there in their highest numbers....

British Speedway however has a 'better idea' than that...

To be honest I am surprised Messrs Sugar and Branson haven't tried to use the BSPA's business model in their businesses...

Edited April 30, 2018 by mikebv

[waytogo28]

10 hours ago, g13webb said:

the only salvation I can see is to  separate ourselves from the other countries and run our own sport at a cost that the fans can afford on the days it best suited to gain maximum exposure.....

Interestingly, in a very recent match report the best of the 250s were recording times the equal of the 500s ( even when ridden by classy, senior riders ). Are they standardised bikes?  Are they significantly cheaper to buy and run? Race times are not anyway the best way to illustrate the quality of a race as we know. We need to bring costs down and this could be one way. But yes, we need to isolate ourselves and run the sport in a way that attracts new UK fans ( including handicap racing if necessary ) Whatever you charge for a match it needs to be 15 heats of decent races and with at leat half of them exciting races. At the moment much of what you see is, sadly, a boring procession. 

[Aces High]

With more British riders trying to ride in Poland isolation would be problematic as we would risk becoming a feeder league to Poland. Losing your promising riders every year is no way to build loyalty from new supporters. I would argue that this is solely lacking already because of lack of continuity from year to year.

It would be nice to go back in time to when the popularity of the sport overseas wasnt such a huge problem but unfortunately that isn't going to happen.

There are other issues that would help first...addressing non existing marketing would be a better one. I was a lapsed speedway fan living in Manchester for sixteen years and i didnt know the NSS had been build until June last year when randomly catching the British final on Bt sport whilst channel hopping.

[mikebv]

24 minutes ago, Aces High said:

With more British riders trying to ride in Poland isolation would be problematic as we would risk becoming a feeder league to Poland. Losing your promising riders every year is no way to build loyalty from new supporters. I would argue that this is solely lacking already because of lack of continuity from year to year.

It would be nice to go back in time to when the popularity of the sport overseas wasnt such a huge problem but unfortunately that isn't going to happen.

There are other issues that would help first...addressing non existing marketing would be a better one. I was a lapsed speedway fan living in Manchester for sixteen years and i didnt know the NSS had been build until June last year when randomly catching the British final on Bt sport whilst channel hopping.

Agree 100% about the marketing, however British Speedway just by the plethora of guests, double uppers and the way teams are dismantled every year, can never hope to bring loyalty to its fan base..

Riders come and go now so it would hardly be much different if they left the country to ride in Poland...

And let's be honest most of our lads don't ride over there due to the level of ability required so it wouldn't be a huge problem...

In fact, for the marketing of the Sport, it would be a nice problem to have as it would mean we had lots of British lads doing well, which could only be good for the National team and therefore wider media coverage...

Media coverage which would then bring even more riders to the Sport wanting to emulate others and seek their own fame and fortune....

And all businesses or entities need aspirational levels to develop and move forwards....

Otherwise they stagnate, then regress, then die....

And British Speedway has been in regression far too long...

Edited April 30, 2018 by mikebv

[Aces High]

1 hour ago, mikebv said:

Otherwise they stagnate, then regress, then die....

And British Speedway has been in regression far too long...

It appears that way but I would have thought that having a league of second tier riders dedicated to riding in the UK would only accelerate that regression. If this was the solution wouldn't the Championship clubs would be doing a lot better than they are? 

[cityrebel]

The sport is knackered from top to bottom. Crowds are falling everywhere, and the bad weather has accelerated the decline. When the price went up to over a pound a race, the writing was on the wall.

[mikebv]

1 hour ago, Aces High said:

It appears that way but I would have thought that having a league of second tier riders dedicated to riding in the UK would only accelerate that regression. If this was the solution wouldn't the Championship clubs would be doing a lot better than they are? 

Simply no one can be a success when they all share the same 'employees'...

The credibility (or lack of it) effectively puts every track at a huge disadvantage as no one can in all honesty take the Leagues seriously... ..

Running at weekend, with settled sides of 'your riders' can only be a major step forward...

The Entertainment and Leisure industry invariably does 'Specials' on Monday to Wednesday to attract punters after the money spinning weekend...

British Speedway must have expected to buck that trend and have thousands climbing over each other to get out to their local Speedway track....

I admire their optimism..

[mike1944]

Poland appears to get decent crowds on a Sunday afternoon and they are really enthusiastic too. I like how they put the 2 minute timer on when the bikes leave the pits and the gates go up 2 minutes later, getting to the starting gate and any gardening, clutch adjusting or goggle adjusting all takes place within this 2 minutes. How is it that Polish supporters can show so much enthusiasm for their sport when the Btitish looks like they are the congregation at a funeral. This showing of Polish speedway on TV just highlights how pathetic the sport is in this country. Very sad I find it.

I remember many happy days at Norwich Speedway at the Firs, before they sadly closed, when the riders did a lap of honour when the crowds could wave and cheer their riders and the chanting of the supporters before a race cheering the riders on all added to the atmosphere. We would meet the riders at the pit gates as they arrived at the track as they parked their vans and trailers , unloading their bikes to push them to the pits. They were ready to stop for a chat and sign autographs. A great family atmosphere. In those days our regular night was Saturday with the occasional Wednesday night but the Saturday crowds were always the best attended of the two.

[RobMcCaffery]

3 hours ago, Aces High said:

It appears that way but I would have thought that having a league of second tier riders dedicated to riding in the UK would only accelerate that regression. If this was the solution wouldn't the Championship clubs would be doing a lot better than they are? 

Because they have imported many of the factors crippling the top tier: chaotic fixture lists, excessive guests and costs. It's also been busy supplying tracks to prop up the higher tier and as a result has become predominantly a shrunken east coast league with large tracts of the country remote from its members.

The guest problem is hopefully being addressed this year but the clash between Swindon's fixtures and those of the Thursday CL tracks has already arisen.

The road ahead is not to create a league based on today's CL but one based on, for argument's sake the original British League where the few surviving National League (D1)  teams finally realised they had to work on the Provincial League's (D2) terms to build one strong, healthy league with a robust, varied fixture list and teams that the sport could afford, the latter achieved through rider control, later points limits. 

An amalgamation would not be an instant remedy but it would be a significant step forward in providing realistic fixture lists and hopefully teams where guests are a rarity. 

As ever, it's a little more complex than saying "Well, if the second tier's so good then why aren't they getting better crowds?". Evils that cripple the top tier affect all levels of our sport. Continuity and team stability are key to getting the faith back of the disappearing supporters, but most crucially we must re-create a sport with credible governance, where riders don't treat it as easily avoidable paid practice for more important pay days elsewhere, and give a sense of value for money and leave people wanting more. Sadly today we seem to be dependent on those who don't really care for the sport, just the glory of their team winning. That may work in football but not ion a minority sport like ours. 

Edited April 30, 2018 by RobMcCaffery