Riders demands over the years

[speedwaysliders]

I have to say that Speedway nowadays is much more professional than in the past.And because of that Speedway is too dull .

Lets look back 10 years

1- more character in speedways riders from years ago.I was lucky enough to begin my speedway days watching the likes of ANDY Galvin,rob Tilbury ,Kelvin Mullarkey!! Dean Barker,Brett Saunders,sean Wilson,The Kennetts and so on.Most were british and had other jobs,but i would look at the line ups in advance and think to myself "that heat looks tasty" im going to that meeting on what drama could happen on the night.Nowadays its very run of the mill stuff with riders wanting to get on to their next meeting,instead of getting up to do their normal jobs .

2 No Pit phone access. For whatever reason sky stopped listening in on rider/ref talk.you cant beat rider emotions and what they think,and makes for great viewing and then interviewing the rider later.Why they have had to clamp down on this,i just dont know,if i was head of sports and had speedway on my list,the pit phone IS A MUST and has to be one of the first things on the agenda,not cutting it all together.Fans love to see controversy .

3 emotions - Speedway is so correct and polite these days,but when rider bust ups do happen,the clips are shown all over the world!!!! Whats wrong with a bit of hand bags ,it just gets the crowd going .Again i wouldnt fine any rider,just let them sort things out.

[BWitcher]

3 hours ago, PolarBjerre said:

You cannot seriously believe what you have written here.

Iversen and Zagar were both extremely good riders in 2003... Iversen starred in Denmarks world cup squad that season and went on to produce a sensational performance as a wildcard the following season in the Danish GP... coupled with the fact he was banging in huge scores in the other leagues. 

The likes of Lawson and Howarth pushing 10.00 in 2003.... are you seriously trying to tell us that they are better riders than the likes of Wilson, Stonehewer, Watson, Carr etc? 

The league maybe stronger as in its tighter with less teams, the top end heatleaders were of a far higher standard in 03 though and that is for sure. If you put Klindt in that league he would of struggled to average 6.00...

The top end heatleaders weren't of a 'far higher standard'. The figures show us that. If they were they'd be sporting 10.5-11pt averages. They weren't because they weren't that good, even in a large league where the talent is spread thinly. 

The riders you and another poster mentioned.. Sean Wilson 9.48 inc bonus pts, hardly dominant. Wilson in 99, 00 and 01 WAS with averages of 10.56, 10.27 and 10.39.

Carl Stonehewer - 9.68
Craig Watson - 9.17
Peter Carr - 9.00

This in a 17 team league where they wouldn't be racing the other 'top guys' in the league that often. Not only that of course, there wasn't as much 'doubling up' back then so riders progressed to the top league more frequently once they reached a good enough standard.

Cut to last season.

Richard Lawson 8.86
Kyle Howarth 9.06

So already, even in a stronger league, facing the other top riders more often, they're matching Watson and Carr. So yes, quite clearly, they'd be pushing 10 at the very least in a 17 team league.

The other riders that have been discussed..

Chris Harris 9.25
Nick Morris 9.07
Ricky Wells 9.07
Steve Worrall 9.41
 

Then we have Craig Cook, 10.37... the claim earlier is he wasn't of the level of Stonehewer.. Nonsense. In his last five seasons in the division in reverse order his average has been 10.37, 10.47, 10.41, 10.83, 9.99. Stonehewer comes close, but his figures are not quite as good.. in a bigger, easier league.

You've been on the Easter sherry if you think Nicolai Klindt wouldn't have averaged 6.00 in a league where TONY ATKIN averaged 7.00.

As for Iversen, no he wasn't an 'extremely good rider'. He is an 'extremely good rider' now. In 2003 he was a decent promising rider who averaged less than Kyle Howarth did in a tougher league last season. His 'acclaimed' performance you are jumping up and down about in the World Cup came against the mighty nations of Germany, Finland and Czech Republic where realistically you're guaranteed 2nd place minimum in most heats.. a win if you beat the Czech rider. 

 

[PolarBjerre]

4 hours ago, BWitcher said:

The top end heatleaders weren't of a 'far higher standard'. The figures show us that. If they were they'd be sporting 10.5-11pt averages. They weren't because they weren't that good, even in a large league where the talent is spread thinly. 

The riders you and another poster mentioned.. Sean Wilson 9.48 inc bonus pts, hardly dominant. Wilson in 99, 00 and 01 WAS with averages of 10.56, 10.27 and 10.39.

Carl Stonehewer - 9.68
Craig Watson - 9.17
Peter Carr - 9.00

This in a 17 team league where they wouldn't be racing the other 'top guys' in the league that often. Not only that of course, there wasn't as much 'doubling up' back then so riders progressed to the top league more frequently once they reached a good enough standard.

Cut to last season.

Richard Lawson 8.86
Kyle Howarth 9.06

So already, even in a stronger league, facing the other top riders more often, they're matching Watson and Carr. So yes, quite clearly, they'd be pushing 10 at the very least in a 17 team league.

The other riders that have been discussed..

Chris Harris 9.25
Nick Morris 9.07
Ricky Wells 9.07
Steve Worrall 9.41
 

Then we have Craig Cook, 10.37... the claim earlier is he wasn't of the level of Stonehewer.. Nonsense. In his last five seasons in the division in reverse order his average has been 10.37, 10.47, 10.41, 10.83, 9.99. Stonehewer comes close, but his figures are not quite as good.. in a bigger, easier league.

You've been on the Easter sherry if you think Nicolai Klindt wouldn't have averaged 6.00 in a league where TONY ATKIN averaged 7.00.

As for Iversen, no he wasn't an 'extremely good rider'. He is an 'extremely good rider' now. In 2003 he was a decent promising rider who averaged less than Kyle Howarth did in a tougher league last season. His 'acclaimed' performance you are jumping up and down about in the World Cup came against the mighty nations of Germany, Finland and Czech Republic where realistically you're guaranteed 2nd place minimum in most heats.. a win if you beat the Czech rider. 

 

You were the one who stated Klindt would average around 9.00 in that 2003 league. After doing some quick searchs, here are a few riders from the 2003 PL close to a 9.00 figure:

Craig Watson (Newport) 9.17

Niels-Kristian Iversen (Newport) 9.13

Matej Zagar (Trelawny) 9.12

Peter Carr (Edinburgh) 9.00

Danny Bird (Isle of Wight) 8.95

Janusz kolodziel (Reading) 8.95

Jan Staechman (Stoke) 8.92

Oliver Allen (Swindon) 8.92

Ray Morton (Isle of Wight) 8.87

I wouldn’t put Nicolai Klindt, in present form, anywhere near the standard of any rider in that list.

Another way of looking at it is the doubling up riders from the PL to EL. 

There were a hell of a lot of riders who done it and the EL was also much much much stronger in 2003 than it is now.

I cannot find a list of 2003 EL averages but off the top of my head, the following riders doubled up in 03:

B.Pedersen, Ruud, Kylmakorpi, Harris, Watson, Robson, Lanham, Bird, Gjedde, Shields, Bjerre, Parker, Madsen, Staechmann plus probably, but not definately, a few more. 

They were all either very good reserves or decent second strings, even heatleader in Gjeddes case as he was averaging over 8 for Oxford in a much stronger league.

Now you look at, Howarth for example, who is 8.5-9 and considered one of the best PL riders, yet in the EL his average is about 6. In a league that is extremely weak.

All of the above quoted riders done more than hold their own in a very strong Elite League in 2003 that, off memory, included all the top GP stars except Gollob.

Stonehewer made regular appearences for team GB, in a time you had the likes of Loram, Screen, Louis, Richardson etc... and never disgraced. He made the Grand Prix series three or four times in a row, and never disgraced himself amongst the top dogs. Will Craig Cook do this, I don’t think so. But time will tell. 

Niels Kristian Iversen and Zagar came in on, I think it was assessed 9.00 figures in 2003 and both increased those figures. That was unheard of at the time. 

Iversen was also reigning Danish under 21 champion, again at the time a strong event. Zagar had impressed in the World Under 21 finals in 2001 and 2002. 

It would be extremely interesting to see a list of double up riders from 2003 with the Pl/El average difference. 

BOTH leagues, in my opinion and judging by the crowds too, are severely weaker now than they were 15 years ago.

[BWitcher]

"Howarth averaged about 6" you claim...

7.56 was his figure as you are including bonus pts in your comparisons. Significant difference.

Here are the averages in the top flight in 2003 of some of the riders you mention.

Bjarne Pedersen 7.06 - he was a standout 2nd tier performer with a 10+ average. Moved up that year.
David Ruud 6.48
Joonas Kylmakorpi 7.36 - 9.69 in PL, moved up that year
Craig Watson 5.23
Leigh Lanham 4.83
Danny Bird 5.93
Tom P Madsen 4.70
Adam Shields 7.44 - 9.99 in 2nd tier- moved up that year
Chris Harris 7.28
Shane Parker 6.23 -9.59 in 2nd tier
Jan Staechman 6.52

Throw in some of the other riders I said would be pushing 9.5 to 10 and their top flight averages last season

Rory Schlein 8.44
Nick Morris 9.38
Scott Nicholls 7.97
 

So once again, the figures back up what I was saying. Only the very top riders in the PL that year get close to Howarth's average and nowhere near those of Schlein or Morris. Yes, a tougher EL in 2003 but some of them also had spells at reserve, which Howarth, Morris and Nicholls did not.

You're obsessed with Klindt, an extreme variance rider who can as easily score 0 as 15 against any opposition. I pointed out a 7.5 rider in a team team league would average around 8-5 to 9 in an eighteen team league. That's reality. 

You've made the ridiculous claim he wouldn't average 6.00. Again, I remind you, Tony Atkin averaged 7.00.






 

 

Edited April 2, 2018 by BWitcher

[Robinh88]

So looking at the pl of 2003 from memory

Stancl, schott, Carr, schlien, Stonewer, stead, Bjerre, Wilson, A Compton, Parker, topinka, watt, staechman, pickering, Watson, smart, Iverson, gjedde, Allen, shields, morton bird, kolodzeij/ljung, zagar, Harris, jirout post car crash if I remember, Mark lemon, Stu Robson, Tatum, Lanhm, Kymikorphi

Looks pretty good to me

Edited April 2, 2018 by Robinh88

[BWitcher]

16 minutes ago, Robinh88 said:

So looking at the pl of 2003 from memory

Stancl, schott, Carr, schlien, Stonewer, stead, Bjerre, Wilson, A Compton, Parker, topinka, watt, staechman, pickering, Watson, smart, Iverson, gjedde, Allen, shields, morton bird, kolodzeij/ljung, zagar, Harris, jirout post car crash if I remember, Mark lemon, Stu Robson, Tatum, Lanhm, Kymikorphi

Looks pretty good to me

Leagues always look good 15 years later when you remember all of their riders at their best.

They look even better when its a big league so more of them get bigger averages over a longer period of time.

Put the same group into a ten team league, half of them you wouldn't remember half as fondly.

[PolarBjerre]

Can you honestly say if you put that group into the current second tier the likes of Howarth and Ricky Wells would still come out averaging more than most of them? 

Which is exactly the whole point of the argument. 

Their not fit to lace most of them riders boots.

[BWitcher]

33 minutes ago, PolarBjerre said:

Can you honestly say if you put that group into the current second tier the likes of Howarth and Ricky Wells would still come out averaging more than most of them? 

Which is exactly the whole point of the argument. 

Their not fit to lace most of them riders boots.

Without a doubt.

You are completely incapable of separating yourself from judging a rider based upon the season in question, 2003, and his career as a whole.

I have already demonstrated to you the fallacy of your argument with hard facts. You've 'attempted' to come up with facts to back up your argument but have had to make them up and be corrected.. that I'm afraid is a sign that the argument is lost before you even start.

You've attempted to dismiss Howarth as a 6pt top flight rider. Reality.. 7.56. Wells 7.31 so not far behind.

Another fallacy you have created is that Stonehewer 'never disgraced' himself in the GP and is something that Cook won't be able to do.. Let's see what Cook has to try and beat..

2000 18th - 30pts (Last of the regular riders. Scores of 10, 7, 3, 4, 3, 3
2001 12th - 46 pts scores of 7,5,4,12,6,12
2002 19th - 30pts scores of 13, 5,2,1,2,4,3

I'm not knocking Stoney, he did brilliant to get into the GP's and had a decent crack in 2001.. In 2000 and 2002 he was out of his depth for the most part (to be expected). Cook may well be also, but it would be very difficult to be much worse.

What I will say and it is something I have stated many times before is that bigger leagues are far better. They naturally create more heat leaders, more 'stars'. You see riders less so they retain that mystique. The true 'big guns' of the league don't meet so often, hence they don't get beat so often adding to that impression of brilliance.

Edited April 2, 2018 by BWitcher

[OdsalBoy]

Stonehewer, Wilson, Smart, Coles, Thorp . . Those were the days.