Riders demands over the years

[Robinh88]

Hi there,

Further to my last post regarding the year 2000. I looked into pl speedway 2003 with an embarrassent of riches in regards to top rider quality. Some clubs were managing three top riders per team. 

The points limit has of course dropped overtime which will lower the standard as it did probably pre the 45 limit. Promoters continue to lose big money and fans generally speaking go but I don't think that same passion and desire is there for a fair percentage of supporters these days but I may be completely wrong.

So looking back at march 2003 the list of quality riders was endless granted the league has gone from 17ish to 11 teams.

No longer are the calibre of rider such as zagar, Zetterstrom, Schott, Stonewer, Wilson anywhere in sight with the exception of cook who has been great for his clubs and pl speedway at large.

Maybe we were being spoiled back then Isle of Wight Newport and Reading bit the dust in the latter two's case potentially terminally.

Admission continues to increase Edinburgh charging £18.50 what is the reason for this? Are todays "stars" asking for even more than when I feel the pl was at its strongest in relation to 2003_today

Also appreciate rider shortage is an issue. Do riders use this to their advantage because they know there is no one else? Nicolai Klindt continues to get fixed up in the pl, for what?

Also do riders ask for more expenses compared to back in the day? Riders nowadays are more professional they take protein shakes and participate in rigourous training at local fitness establishments, a far cry possibly from 15 years ago.

Do you get the same buzz watching Danny king, Steve & Richie worrall, Scott Nicholls as fans did with Zetterstrom, Kylmikorphi, Bjerre?

All comments and opinions welcome

 

Edited March 30, 2018 by Robinh88

[topsoil]

57 minutes ago, Robinh88 said:

Hi there,

Further to my last post regarding the year 2000. I looked into pl speedway 2003 with an embarrassent of riches in regards to top rider quality. Some clubs were managing three top riders per team. 

The points limit has of course dropped overtime which will lower the standard as it did probably pre the 45 limit. Promoters continue to lose big money and fans generally speaking go but I don't think that same passion and desire is there for a fair percentage of supporters these days but I may be completely wrong.

So looking back at march 2003 the list of quality riders was endless granted the league has gone from 17ish to 11 teams.

No longer are the calibre of rider such as zagar, Zetterstrom, Schott, Stonewer, Wilson anywhere in sight with the exception of cook who has been great for his clubs and pl speedway at large.

Maybe we were being spoiled back then Isle of Wight Newport and Reading bit the dust in the latter two's case potentially terminally.

Admission continues to increase Edinburgh charging £18.50 what is the reason for this? Are todays "stars" asking for even more than when I feel the pl was at its strongest in relation to 2003_today

Also appreciate rider shortage is an issue. Do riders use this to their advantage because they know there is no one else? Nicolai Klindt continues to get fixed up in the pl, for what?

Also do riders ask for more expenses compared to back in the day? Riders nowadays are more professional they take protein shakes and participate in rigourous training at local fitness establishments, a far cry possibly from 15 years ago.

Do you get the same buzz watching Danny king, Steve & Richie worrall, Scott Nicholls as fans did with Zetterstrom, Kylmikorphi, Bjerre?

All comments and opinions welcome

 

Most riders these days have "teams" with them in the pits, simply because they see GP riders and think they must have the same. Far too many riders now trying to make a full time career from speedway and the sport just cannot justify this on crowds of 500 to 1,000 a week. Costs have spiralled out of control and most riders have become involved in an arms race, spending ridiculous amounts of money to try and get that tenth of a second quicker.

Undoubtedly speedway has become a much more professional sport, but the costs can only be justified if they are met by money coming into the sport, from TV, sponsors or more fans. None of which is happening. Unfortunately riders are killing it for themselves.

[BWitcher]

1 hour ago, Robinh88 said:

Hi there,

Further to my last post regarding the year 2000. I looked into pl speedway 2003 with an embarrassent of riches in regards to top rider quality. Some clubs were managing three top riders per team. 

The points limit has of course dropped overtime which will lower the standard as it did probably pre the 45 limit. Promoters continue to lose big money and fans generally speaking go but I don't think that same passion and desire is there for a fair percentage of supporters these days but I may be completely wrong.

So looking back at march 2003 the list of quality riders was endless granted the league has gone from 17ish to 11 teams.

No longer are the calibre of rider such as zagar, Zetterstrom, Schott, Stonewer, Wilson anywhere in sight with the exception of cook who has been great for his clubs and pl speedway at large.

Maybe we were being spoiled back then Isle of Wight Newport and Reading bit the dust in the latter two's case potentially terminally.

Admission continues to increase Edinburgh charging £18.50 what is the reason for this? Are todays "stars" asking for even more than when I feel the pl was at its strongest in relation to 2003_today

Also appreciate rider shortage is an issue. Do riders use this to their advantage because they know there is no one else? Nicolai Klindt continues to get fixed up in the pl, for what?

Also do riders ask for more expenses compared to back in the day? Riders nowadays are more professional they take protein shakes and participate in rigourous training at local fitness establishments, a far cry possibly from 15 years ago.

Do you get the same buzz watching Danny king, Steve & Richie worrall, Scott Nicholls as fans did with Zetterstrom, Kylmikorphi, Bjerre?

All comments and opinions welcome

 

You have a higher standard of rider in the PL. Cook, Morris, Harris, Nicholls, King, S.Worrall are at least equal, I would say higher standard than Zagar (2003, not now), Zetterstrom, Schott, Stonehewer and Wilson.

The 'list' looks far more impressive because there were 17 teams which increases the average of the top riders and creates more heat leaders.

Nicolai Klindt gets a job because he's a 7.5pt rider.. would you prefer teams employed a 3pter? A 7.5pt rider now would have been 8.5-9 in 2003.

Agree the income isn't there to pay the riders the amounts they want. 

Edited March 30, 2018 by BWitcher

[scaramanga]

allthough i do agree with everything topsoil says

the riders are risking a lot for the sport and they deserve more than what they get

and unless they intruduce a controlled bike/engine whatever you will always get them spending money to gain a advantage if its in there interests to do so you will get the od rider who dosnt need to spend as much because they can set the bike up better and ride better than some spending a lot mor to keep up with them

 

[Argos]

No one forces a Speedway rider to ride, they do it because they enjoy riding a bike and getting payed for it, and believe me it’s much better than a 9 to 5 job, if they don’t think they don’t get paid enough, simple get a normal job  

[bloom89]

9 hours ago, Robinh88 said:

Hi there,

Further to my last post regarding the year 2000. I looked into pl speedway 2003 with an embarrassent of riches in regards to top rider quality. Some clubs were managing three top riders per team. 

The points limit has of course dropped overtime which will lower the standard as it did probably pre the 45 limit. Promoters continue to lose big money and fans generally speaking go but I don't think that same passion and desire is there for a fair percentage of supporters these days but I may be completely wrong.

So looking back at march 2003 the list of quality riders was endless granted the league has gone from 17ish to 11 teams.

No longer are the calibre of rider such as zagar, Zetterstrom, Schott, Stonewer, Wilson anywhere in sight with the exception of cook who has been great for his clubs and pl speedway at large.

Maybe we were being spoiled back then Isle of Wight Newport and Reading bit the dust in the latter two's case potentially terminally.

Admission continues to increase Edinburgh charging £18.50 what is the reason for this? Are todays "stars" asking for even more than when I feel the pl was at its strongest in relation to 2003_today

Also appreciate rider shortage is an issue. Do riders use this to their advantage because they know there is no one else? Nicolai Klindt continues to get fixed up in the pl, for what?

Also do riders ask for more expenses compared to back in the day? Riders nowadays are more professional they take protein shakes and participate in rigourous training at local fitness establishments, a far cry possibly from 15 years ago.

Do you get the same buzz watching Danny king, Steve & Richie worrall, Scott Nicholls as fans did with Zetterstrom, Kylmikorphi, Bjerre?

All comments and opinions welcome

 

To be fair to the riders they probably are asking for more money than back in 2003 because as people well know the price of everything has risen so is now much more expensive than it would’ve been in 2003.

[topsoil]

10 hours ago, scaramanga said:

allthough i do agree with everything topsoil says

the riders are risking a lot for the sport and they deserve more than what they get

and unless they intruduce a controlled bike/engine whatever you will always get them spending money to gain a advantage if its in there interests to do so you will get the od rider who dosnt need to spend as much because they can set the bike up better and ride better than some spending a lot mor to keep up with them

 

Good on them if they can make a living from it, they've got more balls than I ever will have, the risks they take. It needs authorities to step in and monitor costs, especially the machinery. I could see it happening in this country (standardised bikes), but not in Poland, where they can afford to throw money at it. 

[Midget]

15 hours ago, BWitcher said:

You have a higher standard of rider in the PL. Cook, Morris, Harris, Nicholls, King, S.Worrall are at least equal, I would say higher standard than Zagar (2003, not now), Zetterstrom, Schott, Stonehewer and Wilson.

 

I have to disagree unfortunately, if been going to workington speedway since the re launch, Craig Cook is good rider but he's not in the class of stonehewer that is for sure. 

 

Also the above mentioned, Harris an Nichols are on the spiral, they are not at the level of Wilson, Zorro, frank smart, Danny bird an various others during the past PL area. 

The fact is the elite league is probably more nearer that standard of the old PL these days. 

[waytogo28]

What you get to see on the track nowadays is - for whatever reason - not exciting or thrilling enough to not only bring everyone back to watch regularly nor replace those who retire to the couch or now have a season ticket to the great circuit in the sky.  So something is wrong somewhere, but no one can put their finger on it can they? Is it the lack of quality racing and passing ? Was there better racing 15 - 20 years ago? Whilst, of course, theories abound they are polarised and inconclusive. For whatever reason speedway no longer tickles the fancy of the wider public. Riders demand whatever, but the general public don't like what the riders offer or what they give on track after they get what they have demanded.

Edited March 31, 2018 by waytogo28
Added part of comment

[Fromafar]

2 hours ago, waytogo28 said:

What you get to see on the track nowadays is - for whatever reason - not exciting or thrilling enough to not only bring everyone back to watch regularly nor replace those who retire to the couch or now have a season ticket to the great circuit in the sky.  So something is wrong somewhere, but no one can put their finger on it can they? Is it the lack of quality racing and passing ? Was there better racing 15 - 20 years ago? Whilst, of course, theories abound they are polarised and inconclusive. For whatever reason speedway no longer tickles the fancy of the wider public. Riders demand whatever, but the general public don't like what the riders offer or what they give on track after they get what they have demanded.

For whatever reasons the a Sport has failed to attract younger fans and keep them interested in the Sport ,and it is now starting to seriously impact the sport.Personaly I feel a lot of  Promotions have taken fans for granted for too long.Whilst this is not a critisisum on how they have to run their club to stay viable £18.50 to watch at Armadale is not good value. I agree the riders have a lot to answer for regarding demands.As the top riders drop down leagues and take a lot of money out the sport it will kill it off IMO .

[bruno]

With us only having a few meetings I will travel round a bit this year, I would go back to watching the Wolves every week like I did before we came back but £18 is not value for money. Strangely though for say £15 I would probably turn up every week. It's only £3 but seems a more realistic price to me

[Ben91]

19 hours ago, topsoil said:

Most riders these days have "teams" with them in the pits, simply because they see GP riders and think they must have the same. Far too many riders now trying to make a full time career from speedway and the sport just cannot justify this on crowds of 500 to 1,000 a week. Costs have spiralled out of control and most riders have become involved in an arms race, spending ridiculous amounts of money to try and get that tenth of a second quicker.

Undoubtedly speedway has become a much more professional sport, but the costs can only be justified if they are met by money coming into the sport, from TV, sponsors or more fans. None of which is happening. Unfortunately riders are killing it for themselves.

Unfortunately, they aren't just trying, many are succeeding. To the detriment of the fans. We have to pay more to get in and half the time we see disjointed teams because of fixture clashes. Because the riders 'need' to race for two clubs to make the sport pay. Again, the riders wants are detrimental to the people who pay their wages. 

Speedway in Britain shouldn't be a professional sport any longer. Riders aren't owed anything by the sport or the fans. Sometimes you have to go backwards to go forwards. The horse has bolted for this season of course but next season riders should have one team and one team only. Because of that we may lose a few riders to the sport. Those who do it for the love of the sport will find a way to carry on, be it by running more cost effective equipment or taking a job outside the sport to help them fund their racing. 

There are plenty of riders in the levels below the National League who would give an arm and a leg to ride for a team spot I'm sure. So we may lose a few prima donnas and the standard of the leagues may be worse than it is now but it would be better for the fans and the sport in the long run.  

 

[BWitcher]

2 hours ago, Midget said:

I have to disagree unfortunately, if been going to workington speedway since the re launch, Craig Cook is good rider but he's not in the class of stonehewer that is for sure. 

 

Also the above mentioned, Harris an Nichols are on the spiral, they are not at the level of Wilson, Zorro, frank smart, Danny bird an various others during the past PL area. 

The fact is the elite league is probably more nearer that standard of the old PL these days. 

You're right, Cook isn't in the class of Stonehewer. He's above him. Achieving higher averages in the PL, in a much smaller league.

Achieving MUCH higher averages in the top flight of racing.

Stonehewer was an excellent 2nd division rider and did superbly to get into the GP's and last as long as he did there, but at the level of Cook, no he wasn't.

You're falling into the old trap of thinking riders were better than they were simply because they were in a bigger league. More teams = talent spread more thinly and heat leaders have much higher averages.

Chris Harris not at the level of Frank Smart? Even now he's above. Smart again was a decent, entertaining heat leader. He only ever averaged above 9 once (just 9.03 in 1998). Again his average was exaggerated by the size of the league. He's the equivalent of a 7-7.5pt rider now.

 

[Ben91]

7 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

You're right, Cook isn't in the class of Stonehewer. He's above him. Achieving higher averages in the PL, in a much smaller league.

Achieving MUCH higher averages in the top flight of racing.

Stonehewer was an excellent 2nd division rider and did superbly to get into the GP's and last as long as he did there, but at the level of Cook, no he wasn't.

You're falling into the old trap of thinking riders were better than they were simply because they were in a bigger league. More teams = talent spread more thinly and heat leaders have much higher averages.

Chris Harris not at the level of Frank Smart? Even now he's above. Smart again was a decent, entertaining heat leader. He only ever averaged above 9 once (just 9.03 in 1998). Again his average was exaggerated by the size of the league. He's the equivalent of a 7-7.5pt rider now.

 

Not forgetting that bonus points used to be included in a rider's average too and aren't now. 

[Robinh88]

6 hours ago, Midget said:

I have to disagree unfortunately, if been going to workington speedway since the re launch, Craig Cook is good rider but he's not in the class of stonehewer that is for sure. 

 

Also the above mentioned, Harris an Nichols are on the spiral, they are not at the level of Wilson, Zorro, frank smart, Danny bird an various others during the past PL area. 

The fact is the elite league is probably more nearer that standard of the old PL these days. 

I'd be incined to agree with that

[BWitcher]

3 hours ago, Robinh88 said:

I'd be incined to agree with that

Of course you would, even though it's utter nonsense.

Harris and Nicholls aren't on the same level as Frank Smart and Danny Bird? lol 

[PolarBjerre]

The standard of PL riders back in 2003 was a much better standard than it is now for sure. 

There were quality performers in the old Premier League days, such as Stoney, Wilson, Stead, Watson, Cunningham, Schott... the list is endless. 

I cannot agree that the likes of Frank Smart and Danny Bird would be 7.5ish men now. Smart and Bird would wipe the floor with most riders in the second tier. 

Your example of Nicolai Klindt being a 7.5 man now would equate to 9ish in circa 2003 is nonsense... no way in hell would Klindt average 9 amongst the company of the top 15 or so in the league in 2003. 

You had the likes of Zagar and Iversen , probably not even top 10 in 2003, riding well throughout Europe on 9 point figures and they both were streets ahead of Klindts current standard back in 2003.

The league in 2003 was much stronger, as was the top tier. Year after year we have seen the standard drop, crowds drop and prices go up.

[scaramanga]

11 hours ago, BWitcher said:

Of course you would, even though it's utter nonsense.

Harris and Nicholls aren't on the same level as Frank Smart and Danny Bird? lol 

frank smart  and danny dird got quiet HIGH during there speedway time didnt they

 

[BWitcher]

4 hours ago, PolarBjerre said:

The standard of PL riders back in 2003 was a much better standard than it is now for sure. 

There were quality performers in the old Premier League days, such as Stoney, Wilson, Stead, Watson, Cunningham, Schott... the list is endless. 

I cannot agree that the likes of Frank Smart and Danny Bird would be 7.5ish men now. Smart and Bird would wipe the floor with most riders in the second tier. 

Your example of Nicolai Klindt being a 7.5 man now would equate to 9ish in circa 2003 is nonsense... no way in hell would Klindt average 9 amongst the company of the top 15 or so in the league in 2003. 

You had the likes of Zagar and Iversen , probably not even top 10 in 2003, riding well throughout Europe on 9 point figures and they both were streets ahead of Klindts current standard back in 2003.

The league in 2003 was much stronger, as was the top tier. Year after year we have seen the standard drop, crowds drop and prices go up.

Keep telling yourself that, you are still wrong.

A 7.5pt rider now would have been 8.5 to 9 in 2003 in most cases. It's a mathematical fact.

There were EIGHTEEN teams in the 2nd tier in 2018 compared to TEN last season. That immediately gives you 54 heat leaders, compared to 30. Your list of 'endless' riders is solely due to the size of the league. 

Iversen wasn't a top rider in 2003, indeed neither was Zagar. it was his debut year.

Tony Atkin averaged 7.00 in 2003!!! Please don't try and tell me has ever reached the level Klindt can ride at.

Craig Cook, Chris Harris, Scott Nicholls, Nick Morris blow 2003 Stonehewer, Wilson, Watson and Cunningham out of the water. Cook isn't in the league this year but you can throw in Danny King, Richard Lawson, Ricky Wells, Kyle Howarth, Rory Schlein as riders who would have been pushing 10pt averages in 2003.

Edited April 1, 2018 by BWitcher

[PolarBjerre]

7 hours ago, BWitcher said:

Keep telling yourself that, you are still wrong.

A 7.5pt rider now would have been 8.5 to 9 in 2003 in most cases. It's a mathematical fact.

There were EIGHTEEN teams in the 2nd tier in 2018 compared to TEN last season. That immediately gives you 54 heat leaders, compared to 30. Your list of 'endless' riders is solely due to the size of the league. 

Iversen wasn't a top rider in 2003, indeed neither was Zagar. it was his debut year.

Tony Atkin averaged 7.00 in 2003!!! Please don't try and tell me has ever reached the level Klindt can ride at.

Craig Cook, Chris Harris, Scott Nicholls, Nick Morris blow 2003 Stonehewer, Wilson, Watson and Cunningham out of the water. Cook isn't in the league this year but you can throw in Danny King, Richard Lawson, Ricky Wells, Kyle Howarth, Rory Schlein as riders who would have been pushing 10pt averages in 2003.

You cannot seriously believe what you have written here.

Iversen and Zagar were both extremely good riders in 2003... Iversen starred in Denmarks world cup squad that season and went on to produce a sensational performance as a wildcard the following season in the Danish GP... coupled with the fact he was banging in huge scores in the other leagues. 

The likes of Lawson and Howarth pushing 10.00 in 2003.... are you seriously trying to tell us that they are better riders than the likes of Wilson, Stonehewer, Watson, Carr etc? 

The league maybe stronger as in its tighter with less teams, the top end heatleaders were of a far higher standard in 03 though and that is for sure. If you put Klindt in that league he would of struggled to average 6.00...