Danger Ahead

[wealdstone]

At a recent event  the promoters of one club inferred that the AGM did not go as well as has been claimed and not all in agreement by any means. Peterborough were not in attendance as Ged suspended and Swales retired. I understand that those in charge did not have the courtesy to inform Peterborough of the outcome.

[enotian]

5 hours ago, Argos said:

Points limit is not unlawful, rider assets are, simple as 

What if a rider claimed the points limit was set so low as to exclude their participation? 

Plenty have been in that boat over the years.

[New era Panthers]

1 hour ago, wealdstone said:

At a recent event  the promoters of one club inferred that the AGM did not go as well as has been claimed and not all in agreement by any means. Peterborough were not in attendance as Ged suspended and Swales retired. I understand that those in charge did not have the courtesy to inform Peterborough of the outcome.

That's what I have been given to understand they never informed him of the outcome of the AGM and every thing he learned second hand from social media .   Very shoddy treatment from the BSPA , they are an absolute disgrace.

[Heedthebaw]

18 minutes ago, New era Panthers said:

That's what I have been given to understand they never informed him of the outcome of the AGM and every thing he learned second hand from social media .   Very shoddy treatment from the BSPA , they are an absolute disgrace.

Do you hosestly believe that is the case ?

[New era Panthers]

1 hour ago, Heedthebaw said:

Do you hosestly believe that is the case ?

Yes I do , he may have received  the info but it was at least a week later than those informed at the AGM , which gave all those that attended a head start on rules and team building which is a very unfair way of doing things IMO.

[jenga]

worky were in the same boat as peterborough . they did not attend either . travel may have had something to do with it .

[New era Panthers]

1 hour ago, jenga said:

worky were in the same boat as peterborough . they did not attend either . travel may have had something to do with it .

With age of modern technology there is no excuse for this situation .   I still say it is a disgrace  it could have been faxed or one of several other means of communication. Shoddy is a polite way of describing it.

[Hawk127]

Maybe this could serve as a wake up call. Simplify what seems to be a overly complicated product. Basic rules. After all you have four riders in a race, four laps fixed helmet colours, simple points system. Add no gardening at the tapes, restarts, straight back to tapes, no mechanics on tracks, tactical substitute as and when, thirteen heats and riders contracted for the season only. No assets and no loan fees. One possible change, grade riders. That is it. Any issue over which riders are in what league is scrapped. North and South leagues only with the second tier being the NL. What more do you need.? One down side though. Thirty odd club owners who cannot agree what day of the week it is let alone deliver a simple product that they have managed to take to a level of complication that baffles rocket scientists and professors. That is why it is such disarray.

[Stainlesssteelride]

Make it 15 or even more heats and you have cracked it.

[Argos]

13 hours ago, Tsunami said:

Not assets, but clubs hold the registration to ride in the UK.

How does the law stand then when a rider has a visa, but wants to change clubs midseason. Surely your statement can't be true in those circumstances.

 

Tuff he can’t change mid season he as agreed a contract to ride for a club from March to October, he must honor it. 

[jenga]

8 hours ago, New era Panthers said:

With age of modern technology there is no excuse for this situation .   I still say it is a disgrace  it could have been faxed or one of several other means of communication. Shoddy is a polite way of describing it.

are they still using the fax thing in this day and age .

anyone could send a fax from this end . but you have to know that the .person who sent it was the correct person and not someone trying it on as being  the promoter .

 

but whats done is done .

[sparks123]

17 hours ago, The Third Man said:

Points limit is the same for all teams, all teams agreed to the points limit

Nichols and Kennett were not treated the same as other eiders of equal or even better ability

I don't see what there is to misunderstand about this

I have always been in favour of any British rider riding in both leagues in Britain if they want (more beneficial to team GB if Cookie is doubling up compared to Sam Masters for example).

I think that it's wrong that they are allowed to drop down when the majority of clubs have excluded them from their team plans (affected at least 3 team plans).

The riders should have been made available from the beginning of May when it was then a level playing field where any club could have signed the riders not just the clubs who haven't completed their teams.

[SPEEDY69]

22 hours ago, Argos said:

It’s so basic, All Speedway riders are Self Employed they agree to ride for a club until the end of a season, Due to the fact they are Self Employed they can ride for any other club in the world excluding the UK, His UK club do not deduct Income Tax or NI Contributions,but yet they are assets of a Company, Any Accountancy would tell you the system is completely illegal never mind a Legal Expert.

This is a misconception - they are not self employed according to law.  They are unable to turn down work e.g. "I don't fancy riding at Edinburgh tonight" and neither can they arrange for another rider to take on their work e.g. "Ted Spittles will take my place tonight Mr Team Manager".

They are contracted and considered workers, (who have more rights in employment law) even though they account for their own personal taxation.

[SimonB]

Employment status is subject to some very vague laws in my opinion.

Technically they are engaged as self employed contractors by each track they ride at, they have to provide their own equipment and employ their own assistants if they so wish. They can ride throughout the EU for as many people as will contract them. Some riders are set up as limited companies and/or VAT registered. I think there is a strong argument for them being self employed.

Where it gets more tricky is the asset system but since (AFAIK) no rider has been stopped from earning a living as a result of the asset system I am not sure what legal basis there could be for challenging it. It has been used to create value within the sport.

[SPEEDY69]

I think some of the confusion is because you can be self employed for tax purposes but actually a worker for employment law purposes.  The latter is what could have been used to challenge the BSPA 'proposed' rule.  This is the definition of a worker according to Gov.UK and the test for self employed for employment purposes:

2. Worker  A person is generally classed as a ‘worker’ if:

• they have a contract or other arrangement to do work or services personally for a reward (your contract doesn’t have to be written)
• their reward is for money or a benefit in kind, for example the promise of a contract or future work
• they only have a limited right to send someone else to do the work (subcontract)
• they have to turn up for work even if they don’t want to
• their employer has to have work for them to do as long as the contract or arrangement lasts
• they aren’t doing the work as part of their own limited company in an arrangement where the ‘employer’ is actually a customer or client

• Checking their employment rights

  Someone is probably self-employed and doesn’t have the rights of an employee if they’re exempt from PAYE ... 

• Checking if they’re exempt from PAYE Someone is probably self-employed if most of the following are true:

• they’re in business for themselves, are responsible for the success or failure of their business and can make a loss or a profit
• they can decide what work they do and when, where or how to do it
• they can hire someone else to do the work
• they’re responsible for fixing any unsatisfactory work in their own time
• their employer agrees a fixed price for their work - it doesn’t depend on how long the job takes to finish
• they use their own money to buy business assets, cover running costs, and provide tools and equipment for their work
• they can work for more than one client

[SimonB]

Even with those definitions, the riders meet most of the criteria.

[SPEEDY69]

For a worker yes.  The two I've highlighted for self employed they do not meet and these have been used as the key criteria in several tribunal cases over the last year, where the 'worker' was able to refute SE status.  I'm not a legal buff so don't know why I'm going on about it really, it's just that I don't think speedway riders are actually self employed for employment purposes (tax is different).  I will now shut up. 

[The Third Man]

3 hours ago, sparks123 said:

I have always been in favour of any British rider riding in both leagues in Britain if they want (more beneficial to team GB if Cookie is doubling up compared to Sam Masters for example).

I think that it's wrong that they are allowed to drop down when the majority of clubs have excluded them from their team plans (affected at least 3 team plans).

The riders should have been made available from the beginning of May when it was then a level playing field where any club could have signed the riders not just the clubs who haven't completed their teams.

But again that would be discriminating against them

the rule was wrong, (blame the BSPA for that) so had to be corrected immediately 

 

Edited February 26, 2018 by The Third Man

[Alan_Jones]

1 minute ago, The Third Man said:

But again that would be discriminating against them

the rule was wrong, so had to be corrected immediately 

 

I look forward to the days of total equality when everyone in a race gets 3 points and Jon Armstrong can see out his career in the junior championships.

[Argos]

Can someone confirm or deny that if a new Promotor opens up a new Track and applies to join the PL or CL, the BSPA insists they must have a Retained list to the value of X amount, If this is correct does it mean that the riders are assets of the new Club?, and is it different for each league?