Humphrey Appleby Posted June 13, 2018 Report Share Posted June 13, 2018 16 hours ago, Ghostwalker said: 50 heats on the same track in one day sounds a bit much imo and then there is the risk off rain off. Wouldn't need to do 50 heats per day. 2 x 16-heat meetings would work, or potentially you could even run 2 x 12-heats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebrum Posted June 13, 2018 Report Share Posted June 13, 2018 4 hours ago, Grachan said: I think the better way would have been that in the event of a 3-3, the top scoring side are the winners. Not just because GB were top scorers, but to make more value of those 40-odd races beforehand. So the second top scoring side would need a 4-2 to win. Talking of that final, I was disappointed at the end, and commented on here that we might have won if Tai had slowed the race, but when you see Tai's comments, they make sense. Basically, we went into that race with a winning mentality - to go and win the heat and, thus, go in and attack the race. Race positively. I can see the validity in that, even though it never worked (mainly because the Russians had a very strong pair and it was unlikely either of them would finish last). In the end, Robert Lambert was very close to passing Emil at the end of the race, but never, so the tactic never worked. But they went into the race with the mindset to go out and take the race, and the main reason they never was because Russia were on a 5-1 on the first lap so GB became every man for himself. Perfectly put. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheReturn Posted June 13, 2018 Report Share Posted June 13, 2018 4 hours ago, Grachan said: Talking of that final, I was disappointed at the end, and commented on here that we might have won if Tai had slowed the race, but when you see Tai's comments, they make sense. Basically, we went into that race with a winning mentality - to go and win the heat and, thus, go in and attack the race. Race positively. I can see the validity in that, even though it never worked (mainly because the Russians had a very strong pair and it was unlikely either of them would finish last). In the end, Robert Lambert was very close to passing Emil at the end of the race, but never, so the tactic never worked. But they went into the race with the mindset to go out and take the race, and the main reason they never was because Russia were on a 5-1 on the first lap so GB became every man for himself. 1 minute ago, stevebrum said: Perfectly put. Not sure it is perfectly put. I agree with Grachan that we rightly started the race with a winning mentality, but it's ridiculous to stick to that original plan when it was blown away on the first lap. There needed to be another plan, and anyone sticking to the belief that all Tai could was win the race is naïve (at best). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IainB Posted June 13, 2018 Report Share Posted June 13, 2018 1 hour ago, TheReturn said: Ok, but if rider B needed help to stick to Plan A, then rider A needed to originate a Plan B mid-race to help rider B, achieve Plan A.... Or Manager C should have ensured Rider A had a plan B in case Plan A was failing. Rider A Plan A = Finish 2nd or 3rd Rider B Plan A = Finish 2nd or 3rd Manager C = Tell Riders A & B to implement Plan A and that there is no Plan B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dornier Posted June 13, 2018 Report Share Posted June 13, 2018 I think team riding is between two riders who are in first and second position OR in second and third position. Am not a fan of slowing races down , I think its a dangerous practice. Unlike cars speedway bikes don't have brake lights so the rider behind has no idea the rider in front has slowed up until it is too late. Ask Gino Manzares. I think after the first bend when Lambert was well adrift and based on all Lamberts previous rides it was obvious Lambert wasn`t going to pass Sayfutimov so Tai went for personal glory in front of his Polish fans. That's my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheReturn Posted June 13, 2018 Report Share Posted June 13, 2018 (edited) Ha, well if that was the case... All three failed for different reasons. 1 hour ago, iainb said: Rider A Plan A = Finish 2nd or 3rd Went for the win... should Rider A have boon looking for Rider B is a question we could debate. 1 hour ago, iainb said: Rider B Plan A = Finish 2nd or 3rd Gave it a damn good go, but failed to achieve this objective. 1 hour ago, iainb said: Manager C = Tell Riders A & B to implement Plan A and that there is no Plan B If this was the case Rider A ignored instruction by chasing the win, and not settling for second. Manager C should have instructed Rider A to turn to Plan B if Plan A is screwed after Lap 1. If Manager C had no plan B then he should be looking for his P45. Edited June 13, 2018 by TheReturn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Central Posted June 13, 2018 Report Share Posted June 13, 2018 (edited) Perhaps we should moderate our language. The Manager is C. Has Tai written this ? Edited June 13, 2018 by Grand Central Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foamfence Posted June 13, 2018 Report Share Posted June 13, 2018 4 minutes ago, Dornier fixer said: I think team riding is between two riders who are in first and second position OR in second and third position. Am not a fan of slowing races down , I think its a dangerous practice. Unlike cars speedway bikes don't have brake lights so the rider behind has no idea the rider in front has slowed up until it is too late. Ask Gino Manzares. I think after the first bend when Lambert was well adrift and based on all Lamberts previous rides it was obvious Lambert wasn`t going to pass Sayfutimov so Tai went for personal glory in front of his Polish fans. That's my opinion. He had no option but to go for the win and hope Lambert got a point or one of the Russians failed to finish, holding back could easily have resulted in a 2-4. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbold Posted June 13, 2018 Report Share Posted June 13, 2018 9 minutes ago, foamfence said: He had no option but to go for the win and hope Lambert got a point or one of the Russians failed to finish, holding back could easily have resulted in a 2-4. And, in the context of the final, what's the difference between a 2-4 and a 3-3, where your three points come from a win? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foamfence Posted June 13, 2018 Report Share Posted June 13, 2018 6 minutes ago, norbold said: And, in the context of the final, what's the difference between a 2-4 and a 3-3, where your three points come from a win? That's hindsight, he had a split second to asses the best option, I believe he took it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbold Posted June 13, 2018 Report Share Posted June 13, 2018 1 minute ago, foamfence said: That's hindsight, he had a split second to asses the best option, I believe he took it. It's not hindsight, everyone knew the rules beforehand. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Central Posted June 13, 2018 Report Share Posted June 13, 2018 (edited) 10 minutes ago, norbold said: It's not hindsight, everyone knew the rules beforehand. I am tempted to join with you on this but I fear that opinions are so entrenched (on both sides) that I would get nowhere. It would appear that now 'Tai has spoken' many will be just be happy to let this lie. No matter that it makes no sense. And this despite the 'quotes' appearing to be less from 'Scunthorpe's finest' and more from a media manipulator's hand. Perhaps - with a bit of luck - this format of final will never appear on the 'World' stage again. And hopefully NONE of us will ever have to give it's tactics another moments thought. But I fear that GB will never be as close to a World Pairs/Team Championship again as they were on Saturday. Edited June 13, 2018 by Grand Central 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foamfence Posted June 13, 2018 Report Share Posted June 13, 2018 27 minutes ago, norbold said: It's not hindsight, everyone knew the rules beforehand. The hindsight being from you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbold Posted June 13, 2018 Report Share Posted June 13, 2018 42 minutes ago, foamfence said: The hindsight being from you. ?????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebrum Posted June 13, 2018 Report Share Posted June 13, 2018 4 hours ago, TheReturn said: Not sure it is perfectly put. I agree with Grachan that we rightly started the race with a winning mentality, but it's ridiculous to stick to that original plan when it was blown away on the first lap. There needed to be another plan, and anyone sticking to the belief that all Tai could was win the race is naïve (at best). To me it is perfectly put. We know that the plan was to go for a heat advantage. That plan changed when the Russians hit a 5-1 at the end of lap one. Of course it’s naive to suggest there wasn’t a back up plan to hold a 3 all if they were 2nd and 3rd. But we were never close to that position, until the last lap. with it being the final what better way to finish with a hard race instead of a slow up race. Those who think Emil could have been fooled into being suckered by Tai over a couple of laps is also naive in the extreme. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foamfence Posted June 13, 2018 Report Share Posted June 13, 2018 8 minutes ago, norbold said: ?????? The only facts are that Tai got us to the final and Robert lost us it. All this talk about what they should have done is just talk. I don't blame either of them, I hope they both have a great future, you may have the last word as I really can't be bothered any further with the topic. 3 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPEEDY69 Posted June 13, 2018 Report Share Posted June 13, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, foamfence said: The only facts are that Tai got us to the final and Robert lost us it. All this talk about what they should have done is just talk. I don't blame either of them, I hope they both have a great future, you may have the last word as I really can't be bothered any further with the topic. Disagree entirely. In the final it was last place that mattered - it was completely irrelevant who won the race. Tai and Artem must have known that yet both did nothing to ensure their team mate didn't finish last. Edited June 13, 2018 by SPEEDY69 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foamfence Posted June 13, 2018 Report Share Posted June 13, 2018 18 minutes ago, SPEEDY69 said: Disagree entirely. In the final it was last place that mattered - it was completely irrelevant who won the race. Tai and Artem must have known that yet both did nothing to ensure their team mate didn't finish last. Well they couldn't ride the bikes for them, if you hang back and try to shepherd your partner home there's no guarantee that you wouldn't both end up at the back. Anyway, thank you for your post and have a very good evening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CUFC_Brummie Posted June 13, 2018 Report Share Posted June 13, 2018 (edited) I don't have a problem with the plan being "win the race" as before the tapes go up then if you have one rider finishing first your chances if getting an advantage increase dramatically. However, surely they should have agreed tactics based on various different scenarios? This should have been done in these meetings they looked to be having before Belle Vue, but even if not we had enough time between our final qualifying heat and the final to get that nailed down. "What do we do if we gate on a 5-1?", "What do we do if we gate on a 3-3 with Robert in front?", " What if we gate on a 1-5?". I find it incredibly hard to believe that if they did have that conversation that the answer to the last one would be, "Get to the front Tai and do what you can Rob", and if it was, it was wrong. Edited June 13, 2018 by CUFC_Brummie 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Posted June 13, 2018 Report Share Posted June 13, 2018 I can't believe you guys are still going on about getting a silver medal(gold is good) as my team Aussie are still coming Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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