World Championship Pairs

[moomin man 76]

The competition has a future, but there clearly need to be tweaks made to the format.

The qualifiers allow more nations to compete, but they need to be held in venues that do not resemble gate and go tracks in a field (Teterow), or on a midweek evening with inevitable travel complications (Belle Vue). Under 21 riders have to be mandatory, or not at all, rather than optional. If they are to be mandatory, the format has to be altered so that Under 21 riders have to compete. There is no point in having an optional Under 21 rider, when most nominated Under 21 riders will only ride in the event of injury to a senior rider. As it is the format leaves almost all Under 21 riders seriously out of pocket, as no travel expenses are paid and the prize money on offer is poor.

If there is a necessity to stage a two event final to meet television obligations, at least stage the event on the same day. Run one event in the morning/early afternoon, re-grade the track and run the second event in the evening. Sell separate or dual admission tickets.

The biggest tweak needs to be made to the end of the competition. To run forty two heats to eliminate four teams is excessive. Points won in the qualification phase should also be rewarded in the elimination race, as well as the final. A pair who achieved less points in the qualification phase should not be allowed to win the elimination race, or the final simply by finishing in second and third place. To an outsider (and most speedway fans), it is ridiculous that a lower scoring team over the course of the first forty two heats can win the competition by finishing in second and third place in the final. At least make the lower scoring team who qualify for the final win a heat advantage to emerge victorious.

Unfortunately, most of these flaws were pointed out by speedway fans a long time before race off 1 was held. The attendances for each event was poor, as the public voted with their feet. Either the creators of the competition, Armando Castagna and Torben Olsen are not interested in the opinions of fans, or they are simply deluded in what they think speedway fans will put up with. If either of them had any dignity they should resign for creating such an ill-conceived competition.

Edited June 11, 2018 by moomin man 76

[Grand Central]

1 hour ago, PHILIPRISING said:

CORRECT but, of course, the more people talk it down the more indoctrinated the public become. 

While that could have some validity I don't think that the good people of Manchester or Germany would have given much credence to the ramblings of random folk like me on platforms like this to influence them.

And this was well balanced by people with most readers ... Phil Chard, Paul Burbidge et al who never gave anything other than a positive spin to the SON wherever possible.

No I think they were very capable of deciding for themselves that what was being offered in the qualifiers was a bit of a Turkey. And at first glance the finals had so many things against them that many would have seen the wisdom in not gambling their money until they had seen just how it worked out.

They may have a different view now we have seen a great final..

But if anyone was feeling Poland were being picked on before  ... Then only getting third place will seem like their paranoia was vindicated. So who knows how they will respond now.

Edited June 11, 2018 by Grand Central

[PHILIPRISING]

6 minutes ago, New Science said:

It seems you as Managing Editor of the Speedway Star has an agenda. Virtually everyone is singing off the same hymn sheet accept you. I won't insult your intelligence Phil but if you can't see and can't admit as good as Tai Woffinden was in that tournament that he made a mistake in the Final then words escape me. Can see from your posts that you want Rosco removed but  continuing with this  "Woffinden couldn't help Lambert in the final" narrative isn't doing your reputation as a speedway journalist much cop 

FIRSTLY, as I have said many, many times, I do not contribute here as Managing Editor of Speedway Star but as a speedway fan. Have no agenda. Don't think I have mentioned Rosco. And my opinion (which is all jt is) remains the same regarding the final. In fact, has been endorsed this morning  by some who were there, including a rider whose option I value highly. I have no problem with you seeing it differently. You should simply do the same.

[PHILIPRISING]

1 minute ago, Grand Central said:

While that could have some validity I don't think that the good people of Manchester or Germany would have given much credence to the ramblings of random folk like me on platforms like this to influence them.

And this was well balanced by people with most readers ... Phil Chard, Paul Burbidge et al who never gave anything other than a positive spin to the SON wherever possible.

No I think they were very capable of deciding for themselves that what was being offered in the qualifiers was a bit of a Turkey. And at first glance the finals had so many things against them that many would have seen the wisdom in not gambling their money until they had seen just now it worked out.

They may have a different view now we have seen a great final..

But if anyone was feeling Poland were being picked on before  ... Then only getting third place will seem like their paranoia was vindicated. So who knows how they will respond now.

WAS talking specifically about Poland. The Polish speedway authorities want things they own way and are prone to throw their toys out of the pram. They have the best group of riders, the best stadiums, the biggest crowds, biggest sponsors, pay the big bucks, etc, etc. They believe that puts them in a position where everyone else falls into line. If they don't get their own way they can prove difficult and they were opposed to the SON from the word go. Perhaps with good reason from their perspective but they are becoming the Donald Trump of speedway. Poland first, second and third.

[Grand Central]

Just now, PHILIPRISING said:

WAS talking specifically about Poland. The Polish speedway authorities want things they own way and are prone to throw their toys out of the pram. They have the best group of riders, the best stadiums, the biggest crowds, biggest sponsors, pay the big bucks, etc, etc. They believe that puts them in a position where everyone else falls into line. If they don't get their own way they can prove difficult and they were opposed to the SON from the word go. Perhaps with good reason from their perspective but they are becoming the Donald Trump of speedway. Poland first, second and third.

Well quite.

Hence my final para. 

i can't think they will come out of the weekend being anyless  dogmatic or more conciliatory.

Third place AND losing to Russia over what they could see as a dodgy refereeing decision on the start of the semi. Won't go down well.

[PHILIPRISING]

5 minutes ago, Grand Central said:

Well quite.

Hence my final para. 

i can't think they will come out of the weekend being anyless  dogmatic or more conciliatory.

Third place AND losing to Russia over what they could see as a dodgy refereeing decision on the start of the semi. Won't go down well.

TRUE but in all honesty the Poles have only themselves to blame. Dudek is a SGP rider and knows that referees at FIM events now hold the tapes a little longer. Personally, I would have rescinded any tape infringements, especially from the first day, prior to the semis. Janowski knows the Wroclaw track as well as Woffinden. They had an Under 21 reserve probably on a par, at least, to Lambert on that track. Had they not brainwashed the fans they could have had plenty of support too.,

[Grand Central]

31 minutes ago, PHILIPRISING said:

TRUE but in all honesty the Poles have only themselves to blame. Dudek is a SGP rider and knows that referees at FIM events now hold the tapes a little longer. Personally, I would have rescinded any tape infringements, especially from the first day, prior to the semis. Janowski knows the Wroclaw track as well as Woffinden. They had an Under 21 reserve probably on a par, at least, to Lambert on that track. Had they not brainwashed the fans they could have had plenty of support too.,

Oh yes.

Being objective, of course, they lost it. Actually they threw it away.
Right from their first race on Friday.
But they won't see it like that.

Not sure on the warnings though. It certainly weighed heavier and heavier over the two days. Rightly I might say.
They all knew that and that was ONE of the rules that had to be worked WITH not against.
And both Poles were well used to that regime.

Edited June 11, 2018 by Grand Central

[BWitcher]

1 hour ago, iainb said:

Apparently not though... I've had an opportunity to look at the final race again and can see that Woffy didn't look back for his partner once until the 4th bend of the 4th lap. We'll probably never know the reason why he did this as anybody that legitimately asks the question is tagged as a "keyboard warrior". Someone did ask Tai the question on Twitter, admittedly not in the best way and got shot down by everybody that worships the water Tai walks on

I'd class myself as one of Tai's dedicated fans and I certainly asked the question. You'd have to be a few brain cells short to not do so.

Seen various excuses trotted out as to why they didn't try and not one of them has any semblance of reason. It was the wrong tactic. Simply no argument.

However, I won't use it a stick to beat him with nor will I let it detract from the superb performance he put in over the week or the great strides GB have already taken.

[IainB]

20 minutes ago, Grand Central said:

Being objective, of course, they lost it. Actually they threw it away.
Right from their first race on Friday.
But they won't see it like that.

I think they threw it away before that with their team selection, personally I would have gone with Piotr Pawlicki and Zmarzlik, Dudek is not riding as well as last year and Janowski always blows hot and cold

[iris123]

Basically this is the typical British speedway attitude of when there is a gap in class,the best idea seems to bring the top down a level rather than trying to get the rest up to the best.We have had decades of it in British league speedway of trying to weaken the better teams and we know how that all ended up.Now of course anyone can see,and Phil even said why this competition came about.Poland were deemed too good,so the answer is obviously try and level it out a bit by cutting back on their strength in depth.If this was still the SWC,i am not sure any other country would have challenged them.They can afford to have one poor rider in the knowledge other countries will have 2 or 3

I don't think you need a media campaign etc to see what was going on.The stupid thing to do was bring the idea in when Poland were staging the finals.It could  have been even worse if Dudek had performed better and they had made the final as top scorers(which most must have thought likely)then lost.It might have been held in Denmark or Germany and then we could have got not only an empty stadium but two poor meetings!! Maybe next time,eh?

What will happen next year if teams are forced to track 3 riders with those poor pay rates?Was bad enough for some of the smaller countries to split the money 2 ways,but 3!!!We might,as I predicted some time ago,end up with Russia B,Poland B or Rest of the World 1 +2....... 

[IainB]

2 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

I'd class myself as one of Tai's dedicated fans and I certainly asked the question. You'd have to be a few brain cells short to not do so.

Seen various excuses trotted out as to why they didn't try and not one of them has any semblance of reason. It was the wrong tactic. Simply no argument.

However, I won't use it a stick to beat him with nor will I let it detract from the superb performance he put in over the week or the great strides GB have already taken.

me neither... he was awesome

I suppose I wanted to hear Tai say "I made the wrong call"... which of course he's never going to do with his immense self belief, that makes him so successful. Or at least give some explanation, as he'd team rode supremely throughout the rest of the competition.

It's not every day you have such a chance to win a world championshp

Edited June 11, 2018 by iainb

[Grand Central]

1 minute ago, BWitcher said:

I'd class myself as one of Tai's dedicated fans and I certainly asked the question. You'd have to be a few brain cells short to not do so.

Seen various excuses trotted out as to why they didn't try and not one of them has any semblance of reason. It was the wrong tactic. Simply no argument.

However, I won't use it a stick to beat him with nor will I let it detract from the superb performance he put in over the week or the great strides GB have already taken.

IMHO Absolutely correct.
 

[stevebrum]

4 hours ago, Daniel Smith said:

Doesn't the best rider just come down to opinion.

Belle Vue fans will say Collins, King's Lynn fans are likely to say Lee, Wolves fans say Woffinden etc etc.

For me I can't compare riders from many year gone by as I've never seen or remember them riding.

Certainly since I've started watching Speedway (1989) Tai Woffinden by far is the greatest ever British rider of all time. That's my opinion, it can't be right or wrong, it's just an opinion 

Which was my point all along. Judging who is best is completely subjective dependant on your age/ favourite rider and or team/ dislike of other teams and riders.

One reliable piece of evidence is the history that is known and evidenced by triumphs and achievements. 

Wolves fans would probably say Sam Ermolenko is a better rider than Tai also which is the kind of thing you will get when asking people who is the best rider.

Completely subjective. 

1 hour ago, TheReturn said:

There is why you're considered 'nasty' (your word not mine), because you frequently put yourself on a pedestal above everyone else on the forum.

For the record I don't consider you nasty.

 

No gold medal for one very simple reason, he didn't team ride in the grand final, the most important race of the night.  You're right that best team riding over all four meetings was Team GB, something Holder pointed out on Twitter. But the problem is when it really, really mattered Tai chased the win, didn't look to see how Robert was doing until that final bend. 

I still don't know though if Tai thought the team with the most points won, if that was the case then I fully understand his chasing the win.  But, otherwise, his tactics in that final race are exactly why he didn't get gold.  

The ONLY reason we were in the position we were was solely due to the amazing efforts of Tai.  To then lay blame at his door for the final is ludicrous.  We don't know the reasons why he chased for the win but I trust he did the right thing,  based on the fact that if was him alone that ensured we were in that position in the first place. 

To call him out in one race is frankly ludicrous. 

[BWitcher]

59 minutes ago, PHILIPRISING said:

FIRSTLY, as I have said many, many times, I do not contribute here as Managing Editor of Speedway Star but as a speedway fan. Have no agenda. Don't think I have mentioned Rosco. And my opinion (which is all jt is) remains the same regarding the final. In fact, has been endorsed this morning  by some who were there, including a rider whose option I value highly. I have no problem with you seeing it differently. You should simply do the same.

Quite frankly it doesn't matter how many opinions you canvass. If they suggest anything other than helping your partner in the final, they are wrong or simply short of a few brain cells.

Let me put it this way.. Why bother with team riding in the heats then? Any argument that has been put forward for Tai not helping in the final is wiped out by him doing it in the heats. Yet in the one race where it was ABSOLUTELY essential (the heats weren't)... it wasn't done?

You seem to be taking a stance that suggesting the tactics were wrong is somehow painting Tai to be a villain and wiping out the amazing efforts he put in during the week. That is utterly false. Yes, there are some anti Tai posters doing that, but they'll find fault regardless.

As said, I class myself as a massive Tai fan and defended his decisions over the British Final and not riding for GB. I can however see GB got it wrong in the Final. If it was the managers decision, he should go.

If you ran the final 100 times with Tai chasing the lead, barring mechanical failure Lambert wasn't going to pass Emil in any of them. 

If you ran the final 100 times with Tai attempting to help Lambert, I'd say at least ten of the times Lambert would get up for 3rd. Others may end up with Emil getting 2nd but it would be irrelevant.

The fact is quite simply, the tactics used gave 0% chance of success barring engine failure.

 

[BWitcher]

7 minutes ago, iainb said:

me neither... he was awesome

I suppose I wanted to hear Tai say "I made the wrong call"... which of course he's never going to do with his immense self belief, that makes him so successful. Or at least give some explanation, as he'd team rode supremely throughout the rest of the competition.

It's not every day you have such a chance to win a world championshp

Rossiters job to say what calls were made, not Tai's.

[IainB]

2 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

Rossiters job to say what calls were made, not Tai's.

The silence has been deafening though, everybody is rejoicing in Silver, Anybody that asks the question is shut down as a keyboard warrior

Edited June 11, 2018 by iainb

[Grand Central]

4 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

Quite frankly it doesn't matter how many opinions you canvass. If they suggest anything other than helping your partner in the final, they are wrong or simply short of a few brain cells.

Let me put it this way.. Why bother with team riding in the heats then? Any argument that has been put forward for Tai not helping in the final is wiped out by him doing it in the heats. Yet in the one race where it was ABSOLUTELY essential (the heats weren't)... it wasn't done?

You seem to be taking a stance that suggesting the tactics were wrong is somehow painting Tai to be a villain and wiping out the amazing efforts he put in during the week. That is utterly false. Yes, there are some anti Tai posters doing that, but they'll find fault regardless.

As said, I class myself as a massive Tai fan and defended his decisions over the British Final and not riding for GB. I can however see GB got it wrong in the Final. If it was the managers decision, he should go.

If you ran the final 100 times with Tai chasing the lead, barring mechanical failure Lambert wasn't going to pass Emil in any of them. 

If you ran the final 100 times with Tai attempting to help Lambert, I'd say at least ten of the times Lambert would get up for 3rd. Others may end up with Emil getting 2nd but it would be irrelevant.

The fact is quite simply, the tactics used gave 0% chance of success barring engine failure.

 

I am so glad that someone with impeccable 'Tai credentials' is able to put the argument so well.
Without incurring any 'Tai bashing' claims.

Edited June 11, 2018 by Grand Central

[TheReturn]

13 minutes ago, stevebrum said:

The ONLY reason we were in the position we were was solely due to the amazing efforts of Tai.  To then lay blame at his door for the final is ludicrous.  We don't know the reasons why he chased for the win but I trust he did the right thing,  based on the fact that if was him alone that ensured we were in that position in the first place. 

To call him out in one race is frankly ludicrous. 

OMG why cant some people get this?  Take the 'Tai tinted glasses' off. How can you say 'I trust he did the right thing', we lost!!!!!!

Most of us who have suggested Tai got it wrong in the final have all said how amazingly well he's done in the other races. Tai deserves so much praise for what he got right in the 3 meetings, but that does not mean he can't be criticised for getting the final wrong, that criticism doesn't detract from his amazing achievements to get us there.

BWitcher perfectly describes it above...

8 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

Why bother with team riding in the heats then? Any argument that has been put forward for Tai not helping in the final is wiped out by him doing it in the heats. Yet in the one race where it was ABSOLUTELY essential (the heats weren't)... it wasn't done?

 

 

Edited June 11, 2018 by TheReturn

[Shockster]

4 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

I'd class myself as one of Tai's dedicated fans and I certainly asked the question. You'd have to be a few brain cells short to not do so.

Seen various excuses trotted out as to why they didn't try and not one of them has any semblance of reason. It was the wrong tactic. Simply no argument.

However, I won't use it a stick to beat him with nor will I let it detract from the superb performance he put in over the week or the great strides GB have already taken.

100% Correct. 

Tai was brilliant over the 2 days and without him we'd probably have been battling Germany for last place.

Who knows why he chased Laguta, but he did!!  Maybe the final got to him and he just wanted to win. Must be a bit alien letting another rider zoom off when it's in your nature to race. 

While I'm on here, regarding the tapes warning rule.  Personally I'd let them all move at the start and unless they touch the tapes let it go, flyers are a great gate IMO.  However, if we are to have warnings in this and the GP I'd say make it a clean slate when we get to the semis. If they move in either the semi or final then they get a new warning.  The semi final on Saturday was very poor and a real downer for the meeting, although correct decision under the current rule.

[Starman2006]

14 minutes ago, stevebrum said:

The ONLY reason we were in the position we were was solely due to the amazing efforts of Tai.  To then lay blame at his door for the final is ludicrous.  We don't know the reasons why he chased for the win but I trust he did the right thing,  based on the fact that if was him alone that ensured we were in that position in the first place. 

To call him out in one race is frankly ludicrous. 

Big like Brum... Tai did exactly the right thing in the final, you cannot bugger about trying to team ride in those circumtances. Other than that his contrabution was exceptional.