World Championship Pairs

[stevebrum]

4 minutes ago, nw42 said:

Plenty you say, I said a couple,  The mood wasn't all about Tai bashing, far from it, we just wondered why he hadn't helped Lambert, nothing more nothing less.

Like you said you caught up late, maybe your attention was drawn to the odd posters who had a go at Tai,  far in the minority.

 

 Like I said reading it later on there was a definate switch of Tai is brilliant to Tai cost us the win. Plenty questioning his motives with the usual suspects hating. I read plenty of posts praising his efforts last night and today which is refreshing to see.

[The Little Un]

6 minutes ago, PHILIPRISING said:

EFFECTIVELY it was 4-3-2-0 in the final ... 2nd and 3rd trumped 1st

They should have had that scoring system for the whole of the tournament.

[The Little Un]

4 minutes ago, stevebrum said:

 Like I said reading it later on there was a definate switch of Tai is brilliant to Tai cost us the win. Plenty questioning his motives with the usual suspects hating. I read plenty of posts praising his efforts last night and today which is refreshing to see.

Tai was not the problem, the scoring system was all wrong. It should have been either 4-3-2-0 or 3-2-1-0 for the whole tournament. Arguably GB should have been credited one point in final race as that is what they lead Russia before the race-offs.  

[stewmac]

1 hour ago, The Little Un said:

Is that a joke, I have watched many Polish league matches where the stadiums were less than half full.

Did you read my post correctly? I was not talking about "Polish stadiums" - I was talking about Wroclaw and more specifically Wroclaw THIS SEASON. Please do go back and read carefully what I said....

[PHILIPRISING]

5 minutes ago, The Little Un said:

They should have had that scoring system for the whole of the tournament.

WHY? Aren't riders supposed to win a race rather than avoiding last. Nothing wrong with the scoring over the weekend bar the last two races.

[Aces51]

19 minutes ago, stevebrum said:

Ah, the old I was there so no better than you do argument.

A very valid argument. Would you prefer the evidence of an eye witness or someone judging from what they have read or been told. Records and achievements don't tell you everything, far from it. Havelock won one world title as did Lee but the latter was a far better rider.

Tai will rightly be judged when his career is over and what he has achieved. As it stands he is still in consideration to be the best British rider of any era. Achievements will help us make that judgement. 

That is in effect what I said.

 

 

[stevebrum]

14 minutes ago, The Little Un said:

Tai was not the problem, the scoring system was all wrong. It should have been either 4-3-2-0 or 3-2-1-0 for the whole tournament. Arguably GB should have been credited one point in final race as that is what they lead Russia before the race-offs.  

A good point.

5 minutes ago, Aces51 said:

 

Eye witnesses are great, but we are all eye witnesses and we all see different things depending on your club or country bias. 

Ive not read many reports that haven’t said Craven wasn’t superb and wasn’t the best of his era. That’s not in question. My dad has told me stories that go back to the 50’s so I’m fully aware of the history of riders and abilities.

That said the history books tell us the facts, the rest is subjective.

 

 

[James Carter]

Just caught up with all the action. 142 pages of comments so far... that's my day at work sorted !

Woffinden was just incredible over two days. People should just relax with how good he is in the grander scheme of things and just enjoy watching a sensational rider.  It reminds me a lot of Loram back in 2000 when he was in a rich vein of form and you just knew that even if he was last out of the gate he would still come through for the win. Incredible stuff

I just dont get 4320 scoring. Surely riders going for the win creates much better racing and just feels like it should be the correct way to run race off.  Bitter.. maybe a little  but the Russians rode great as well (apart from when they had some sort of brain fade and through Gleb in?!)

Wroclaw should be giving a big F.O tablet from hosting as the crowd was pathetic.  

 

[tyler42]

50 minutes ago, The Little Un said:

Peter Craven won two world championship titles.

my apologies

[PHILIPRISING]

15 minutes ago, adonis said:

Emil was sticking on the white line and lambert was trying outside . it would have been relatively easy  for woffinden to pinhim on the kerb in the last turn  ,slow him down and let lambert go round both of them . assuming of course that  he realised it was Sajfutdinov  in third and not Lambert  .

 

 

RELATIVELY easy? Sitting in front of your telly maybe. 

[PolskiZuzel]

5 hours ago, TheReturn said:

Quite right, you are entitled to an opinion... your opinion is the wrong opinion on this occasion.

You say that Philip's opinion is the wrong opinion...and I am not arguing with that...because it is YOUR opinion...and you're entitled to it in the same way as Philip is entitled to his.

[BWitcher]

4 hours ago, adonis said:

stop quoting me  or trying to interact with me in any way . I don't suffer fools gladly and that is exactly what you are , 

 

Fools? your only posts on this thread have been attacking Tai Woffinden. That sure qualifies you for one given his efforts this week.

[Bagpuss]

8 hours ago, KIRKYLANE said:

Most impressed with Michael Jepsen Jensen   ... some quality manoeuvres in his races

Tai was absolutely magnificent on the track with some quality team riding with Robert

Robert has shown his capabilities on the world stage and it augurs well for his and GB's future.

My mother who is 93 and watched speedway up until the late seventies simply said " it's not fair we scored more points and came second !!!"

Agree about MJJ, he was excellent over the two nights. Quality performer when on song.

While I agree that GB probably got their tactics wrong in the final, to pin it all on Woffinden is ridiculous. I'm pretty sure the whole team would have discussed it beforehand and decided on a plan which they thought would work best, ie both riders fending for themselves if separated.

[Sotonian]

2 hours ago, The Little Un said:

Neither were or are so far better than Peter Craven. So far by far the best rider Britain has ever had.

By far? I would suggest it's a close-run thing now. Putting aside the different eras and just looking at equivalent competitions:

In the World Champs

Craven: 2x1st & 2x3rd       Woffy: 2x1st & 1x2nd 

British Champs

Craven: 2x1st          Woffy: 3x1st

That's without considering Woffy's stellar efforts in the SoN and previous SWC rounds. 

 

[tyler42]

You could never compare British Finals. That is one meeting where the standard has dropped quit significantly.

If a 2nd division rider qualified back in the day it was a rare. Now it's the other way round!! and that is not because of DU riders

[Aces51]

7 minutes ago, Sotonian said:

By far? I would suggest it's a close-run thing now. Putting aside the different eras and just looking at equivalent competitions:

In the World Champs

Craven: 2x1st & 2x3rd       Woffy: 2x1st & 1x2nd 

British Champs

Craven: 2x1st          Woffy: 3x1st

That's without considering Woffy's stellar efforts in the SoN and previous SWC rounds. 

 

You are in danger of falling into the same trap as SteveBrum.

Records don't tell you anything like the whole story. Just to give a few examples, Peter Collins has far more World Championship medals than either Craven or Woffinden but you have to take into account that England were the best in the world during much of his era. As a result he was advantaged by being a member of World Cup and Pairs winning teams. There was no World Cup or Pairs to win during Craven's career and Woffinden hasn't had the quality of team mates that Collins had.  The British Championship was first held in 1961 so Peter Craven didn't have an opportunity to win it during most of his career. He did win it in 1962 and 63, the year he died and remember that at that time Australian and New Zealand riders, like Briggs and Moore, also took part so it was more difficult to win than in recent times. I also previously touched on the better quality of riders during the Craven and Collins eras as compared to now, which made it more difficult to win a title.

[LesR]

4320 scoring in SON would not have made any difference this weekend. After 42 heats scores would be GB 67, Russia 65 and Poland 56, Final would have had same result, as Phil mentioned, GB 4, Russia 5. The only way that GB could win is if the scoring, 3210 or 4320, was over 42 heats AND final.

[LesR]

2 minutes ago, adonis said:

Is league racing cheaper ? perhaps if it was more expensive that's why they stayed away ,  £25 at belle vue  knocked a good few off the gate .

It was reported that Poland were only selling 2 day tickets. Maybe the Polish fans either couldn't afford that, or only wanted to see the main action of the second day and not be charged double to see one day!

[Humphrey Appleby]

Just now, LesR said:

It was reported that Poland were only selling 2 day tickets. Maybe the Polish fans either couldn't afford that, or only wanted to see the main action of the second day and not be charged double to see one day!

Might have been a clash with a womens' basketball tournament... 

[stevebrum]

1 hour ago, Aces51 said:

You are in danger of falling into the same trap as SteveBrum.

Records don't tell you anything like the whole story. Just to give a few examples, Peter Collins has far more World Championship medals than either Craven or Woffinden but you have to take into account that England were the best in the world during much of his era. As a result he was advantaged by being a member of World Cup and Pairs winning teams. There was no World Cup or Pairs to win during Craven's career and Woffinden hasn't had the quality of team mates that Collins had.  The British Championship was first held in 1961 so Peter Craven didn't have an opportunity to win it during most of his career. He did win it in 1962 and 63, the year he died and remember that at that time Australian and New Zealand riders, like Briggs and Moore, also took part so it was more difficult to win than in recent times. I also previously touched on the better quality of riders during the Craven and Collins eras as compared to now, which made it more difficult to win a title.

I've not fallen into any trap,  I've already said that I don't mean to discredit the ability of Craven. I'm fully aware of his history and standing within the sport. I can't remember where he came in the Speedway Star rider of the millennium. I'd imagine he was pretty high up. Certainly a good idea where he was ranked by all speedway fans of all ages.

Of course you still have to measure that against what any rider achieves in the history books. 

It would be foolhardy of  anyone to suggest that if woffy was to add another one or two world titles to his name that he still wouldn't be a worthy candidate of being one of our all time greats.