PHILIPRISING Posted June 10, 2018 Report Share Posted June 10, 2018 (edited) 11 minutes ago, iainb said: It sounds like you've given up on life Philip. If you're not going to try and win, why enter the competition? I DON'T think I ever said they weren't trying to win. GB probably had the right tactics for the final prior to the start of the race (although it might have been better for Tai and Robert to have changed gate positions) but once the tapes go up those tactics are dictated by what the opposition do. And once Emil passed Lambert they became irrelevant. On a track like Wroclaw, with so many racing lines, I find it hard to believe that Tai could have done anything that would have helped Lambert get past a world class rider like Emil who knew exactly what he had to do. Edited June 10, 2018 by PHILIPRISING 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted June 10, 2018 Report Share Posted June 10, 2018 2 minutes ago, The Third Man said: and I agree that the scores after 42 heats should have been the result, but all seven teams knew the rules when the entered the competition, the time to complain was then not at the end, although I only see fans complaining But fans matter and fans were complaining as soon as it was announced how the final worked and fan voted with their feet,it was plain to see......ignore fans opinions and you end up with empty stadia.Then you end up with few sponsors,then you end up in trouble..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IainB Posted June 10, 2018 Report Share Posted June 10, 2018 5 minutes ago, PHILIPRISING said: I DON'T think I ever said they weren't trying to win. You have effectively said they shouldn't have tried to win the final once the riding order was established Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moxey63 Posted June 10, 2018 Report Share Posted June 10, 2018 1 hour ago, BWitcher said: Speedway now is more professional at the highest level that it has ever been. In fact it is more professional at every level. Back in Collins day he's racing against amateurs turning up with a bike strapped to the back of their car in many of his races Seriously, not attacking Collins, he was brilliant and rightfully in the conversation for best Brit ever. Your comments regarding Crump are nonsense. He was still racing. He wasn't winning. He wasn't on a moped. As for Tai, when did I mention domestic form in the UK? Crump was racing against the likes of Rickardsson, who nudged him into second place on many occasions, despite turning up with his moped strapped to the back of his Austin A40. Sometimes, BWitcher, you twist things to suit your argument. It is ok to be wrong, sometimes, you know.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scarletrider Posted June 10, 2018 Report Share Posted June 10, 2018 Only in Speedway can a team scoring the most points end up as second best. And they wonder why the sport is on it's knees!!! Aside from that, some great racing. "The Mackem" 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grachan Posted June 10, 2018 Report Share Posted June 10, 2018 4 minutes ago, scarletrider said: Only in Speedway can a team scoring the most points end up as second best. And they wonder why the sport is on it's knees!!! Aside from that, some great racing. "The Mackem" Tennis? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LesR Posted June 10, 2018 Report Share Posted June 10, 2018 (edited) With the emphasis on team riding in SON and the Bonus Point is counted for the final, maybe the bonus points should have counted for all 42 heats as well! That would have given the following result over the 42 heats. Russia 45 + 6 = 51 Great Britain 46 + 2 = 48 Poland 36 + 4 = 40 Denmark 35 + 4 = 39 Sweden 32 + 5 = 37 Australia 35 + 1 = 36 Germany 23 + 1 = 24 No change in top 3 places. Edited June 10, 2018 by LesR additional text 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Al Posted June 10, 2018 Report Share Posted June 10, 2018 1 hour ago, The Third Man said: Why was the semi final a farce, it was run to the rules, are you saying that Poland should have been allowed to carry on with two men in the race until they managed to gate ahead of the Russians? and I agree that the scores after 42 heats should have been the result, but all seven teams knew the rules when the entered the competition, the time to complain was then not at the end, although I only see fans complaining There should only be a race-off when the top two teams finish three points or fewer apart. And if there is a race-off, the leading team can carry their advantage into the race-off. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phillipsr Posted June 10, 2018 Report Share Posted June 10, 2018 1 hour ago, PHILIPRISING said: I WILL try one last time ... I believe that Emil is too good to allow a rider like Lambert to pass him no matter what Tai might have done. I am as entitled to my view as any. Doesn't make me right. Or wrong. Why cant you get this or are you being deliberately obtuse now?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHILIPRISING Posted June 10, 2018 Report Share Posted June 10, 2018 5 minutes ago, phillipsr said: Why cant you get this or are you being deliberately obtuse now?? IT comes naturally. 2 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moxey63 Posted June 10, 2018 Report Share Posted June 10, 2018 I think the skill of being able to fill in a speedway programme without any mistakes makes most fans feel they know it all. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gr8scot Posted June 10, 2018 Report Share Posted June 10, 2018 1 hour ago, Grachan said: And, imagine if Laguta had seen Tai doing that and decided to also drop back to try and help Emil. What a race we would have had! OR what a crash would’ve ensued Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aces51 Posted June 10, 2018 Report Share Posted June 10, 2018 2 minutes ago, moxey63 said: I think the skill of being able to fill in a speedway programme without any mistakes makes most fans feel they know it all. I always thought that was the ultimate challenge of human intelligence. If you can achieve perfection the world is your oyster and your pronouncements are to be listened to with reverence. Many an announcer has felt the lash of my tongue when they've wrongly announced the line up or result of a race causing me to make an amendment. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post norbold Posted June 10, 2018 Popular Post Report Share Posted June 10, 2018 (edited) I have always been a great admirer of Tai's on-track exploits and there is no doubt there is a strong case to say he is Britain's best-ever. Certainly in the top 4. And the way he rode during the SON certainly emphasises that and furthers his cause in that respect no end. So, like a lot of posters on here who have commented on the final race, I have no dislike of Tai nor any need to "attack" him. And I find it speaks volumes for the paucity of the argument of others when they have to resort to that line of reasoning when trying to answer the criticism that he should have done more to help Lambert in the final. It would be much better to give some sort of reasoned argument why they feel his tactics in the last race were correct rather than attacking everyone as "Tai haters". To his credit, Philip has tried to do just that without ad hominem attacks, but, in my opinion, has failed miserably to make out any case at all why Tai should have just gone for the win and forget his partner. Yes, we know the chances of his shepherding Rob through past the world class Sayfutdinov were close to zero, but there was no alternative, given the rules. What difference did it make to the overall position that Tai storms off to win? There was only one chance of victory last night and that was for Rob not to come last. Other than last himself, it was irrelevant where Tai finished up. He could have stormed off and won in a new track record for all the difference it made. The only tactic he had was to hang back and try and help, however difficult that was. Can someone please give a good reason why they think Tai was right to do what he did without dismissing people who disagree as "Tai haters"? Edited June 10, 2018 by norbold 15 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arson fire Posted June 10, 2018 Report Share Posted June 10, 2018 3 hours ago, Hamish McRaker said: So do you think that a rider who is in the final of a world championship competition, should need assistance to pass someone in front and get into 3rd place? He had done it a few heats previously. And the rider he passed wasn't exactly a slouch, was he? Yes i do actually... but to suggest Tai was “ effectively sending a message to Lambert and British speedway” is quite frankly pathetic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHILIPRISING Posted June 10, 2018 Report Share Posted June 10, 2018 10 minutes ago, norbold said: I have always been a great admirer of Tai's on-track exploits and there is no doubt there is a strong case to say he is Britain's best-ever. Certainly in the top 4. And the way he rode during the SON certainly emphasises that and furthers his cause in that respect no end. So, like a lot of posters on here who have commented on the final race, I have no dislike of Tai nor any need to "attack" him. And I find it speaks volumes for the paucity of the argument of others when they have to resort to that line of reasoning when trying to answer the criticism that he should have done more to help Lambert in the final. It would be much better to give some sort of reasoned argument why they feel his tactics in the last race were correct rather than attacking everyone as "Tai haters". To his credit, Philip has tried to do just that without ad hominem attacks, but, in my opinion, has failed miserably to make out any case at all why Tai should have just gone for the win and forget his partner. Yes, we know the chances of his shepherding Rob through past the world class Sayfutdinov were close to zero, but there was no alternative, given the rules. What difference did it make to the overall position that Tai storms off to win? There was only one chance of victory last night and that was for Rob not to come last. Other than last himself, it was irrelevant where Tai finished up. He could have stormed off and won in a new track record for all the difference it made. The only tactic he had was to hang back and try and help, however difficult that was. Can someone please give a good reason why they think Tai was right to do what he did without dismissing people who disagree as "Tai haters"? HERE goes, pure conjecture of course. After a couple of laps Tai believed that there was nothing he could to to help Lambert into third place. GB could only win if Emil or Artem fell or suffered an engine failure. If that happened GB would win whether Tai was second or first. His racing instincts kicked in and he went for the win on the last lap. At least it gave GB more points, a moral victory in some people's eyes. I think it should be remembered that Russia had the second best individual rider over two days (Laguta) and the best number two .. which made them the best pair and were strong favourites to win a final in which, ridiculously I agree, not finishing last carried more weight than winning. Hope that is sufficiently obtuse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted June 10, 2018 Report Share Posted June 10, 2018 Yes,that is probably it.He went off in the hope that Artem's natural racing instinct would get the better of him and he would lose control trying to catch Tai,thus handing the win to us. Best theory I have heard so far Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chadster Posted June 10, 2018 Report Share Posted June 10, 2018 When Woffinden passed Laguta in the main event, Laguta lifted and almost got into trouble. I wonder whether Woffinden thought that if he pressed him in the final, something similar might occur and let Lambert through? Enjoyed the tournament after a slow start. Perhaps a return to the WTC next year and then alternate with SON? One change to make would be the team behind going into the grand final wins only if they get a heat advantage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chadster Posted June 10, 2018 Report Share Posted June 10, 2018 Just now, iris123 said: Yes,that is probably it.He went off in the hope that Artem's natural racing instinct would get the better of him and he would lose control trying to catch Tai,thus handing the win to us. Best theory I have heard so far Beat me to it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IainB Posted June 10, 2018 Report Share Posted June 10, 2018 9 minutes ago, PHILIPRISING said: HERE goes, pure conjecture of course. After a couple of laps Tai believed that there was nothing he could to to help Lambert into third place. GB could only win if Emil or Artem fell or suffered an engine failure. If that happened GB would win whether Tai was second or first. His racing instincts kicked in and he went for the win on the last lap. At least it gave GB more points, a moral victory in some people's eyes. I think it should be remembered that Russia had the second best individual rider over two days (Laguta) and the best number two .. which made them the best pair and were strong favourites to win a final in which, ridiculously I agree, not finishing last carried more weight than winning. Hope that is sufficiently obtuse. Nice explanation... I still can't understand why you, or anybody else for that matter, thinks it was the right thing to do. And personally I think Tai was going for the win well before the last lap 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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