World Championship Pairs

[stewmac]

3 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

With regards to the attendances... there is little doubt with regards to the negativity regarding this event prior to the tournament.

However... after the final that has changed a hell of a lot. People now know they would see some fantastic racing.

I have 100% confidence if this event was held at Belle Vue next year, or in 2020 as is more likely, the final would sell out.

Point is though, had it been the WTC final being held at Wrocław, that would also have produced wonderful racing. To say it was down to the format being g used is simply being naive. Wroclaw is one of the top 2 tracks in the world, the other being Czestochowa.

[BWitcher]

39 minutes ago, nw42 said:

Agreed it was a good post but I think he's referring to the future when Tai becomes Britain's greatest ever,  given his previous successes and time on his side he probably will achieve the status, here's hoping because it will only benefit British speedway.

 

Meanwhile I think Peter Collins stands out as the greatest British rider.

I'd strongly suggest Woffinden has already surpassed Collins, at the very least equalled.

If he adds a third world title there is no argument.

[IainB]

1 minute ago, BWitcher said:

I said the final

ah yes, so you did... I wonder who we could persuade to hold the qualifiers?

[BWitcher]

Just now, stewmac said:

Point is though, had it been the WTC final being held at Wrocław, that would also have produced wonderful racing. To say it was down to the format being g used is simply being naive. Wroclaw is one of the top 2 tracks in the world, the other being Czestochowa.

This was better than the WTC.

The overall event was reminiscent of when the WTC was first introduced and the qualifying rounds were a dud, it only picked up at the race-off. They then tweaked things. That's all this event needs.. tweaking. Fans now know how good it can be.

[IainB]

5 minutes ago, stewmac said:

Point is though, had it been the WTC final being held at Wrocław, that would also have produced wonderful racing. To say it was down to the format being g used is simply being naive. Wroclaw is one of the top 2 tracks in the world, the other being Czestochowa.

It was great for us Brits, we had Woffy, we were in front, we were doing all the team riding... it'd be interesting to know, as a world event, what the fans of the Poles, Swedes, Danes etc thought of it... they may have thought of the whole event as most of us thought about the opening qualifier

Edited June 10, 2018 by iainb

[stewmac]

1 minute ago, BWitcher said:

This was better than the WTC.

The overall event was reminiscent of when the WTC was first introduced and the qualifying rounds were a dud, it only picked up at the race-off. They then tweaked things. That's all this event needs.. tweaking. Fans now know how good it can be.

Poles have been watching the racing from Wroclaw all season on TV and in person. The stadium is full or almost full every league match. It's been quite outstanding this year. Why would it have been any different for this? The stadium was hardly half full either day, suggesting that even though they knew the racing would be great, they didn't want the format. I don't see how that will change....

[Sidney the robin]

3 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

I'd strongly suggest Woffinden has already surpassed Collins, at the very least equalled.

If he adds a third world title there is no argument.

A great debate for another day    but my take on it would be a PEAK Collins would beat a PEAK Woffinden in a best of 20 races.My theory on this is that PC could actually gate on a level par with Tai which over the years was a Collins weakness.But the deciding factor would be  that Collins had the ability to come from the back he is by far the best rider i have ever seen in that department.

[BluPanther]

It's not a patch on the WTC i'm afraid, and the poor crowds would seem to confirm that. As for the format, what a joke ... Please get rid of these stupid semi finals and race offs, they are only relevant in a GP format.  

[nw42]

2 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

A great debate for another day    but my take on it would be a PEAK Collins would beat a PEAK Woffinden in a best of 20 races.My theory on this is that PC could actually gate on a level par with Tai which over the years was a Collins weakness.But the deciding factor would be  that Collins had the ability to come from the back he is by far the best rider i have ever seen in that department.

For another day as you say Sid, Woffinden is the man of the moment and his return to the fold has to be welcomed,  as has been said the experience Lambert gained this week will prove invaluable to him, as has also been said it's about the riders he beat rather than the ones he trailed.  It's been a good while since I've felt so animated watching a meeting, was completely absorbing, loved it.

[BWitcher]

16 minutes ago, stewmac said:

Poles have been watching the racing from Wroclaw all season on TV and in person. The stadium is full or almost full every league match. It's been quite outstanding this year. Why would it have been any different for this? The stadium was hardly half full either day, suggesting that even though they knew the racing would be great, they didn't want the format. I don't see how that will change....

Good god.

Try having a read through this thread. You will see that 95% of people were slating this event, it's going to be awful etc. 

Come the end of the final, 95% of those people have now changed their tune and think it was fantastic (qualifiers aside). 

If and when the next one rolls around, fans won't be having to decide, is this going to be any good etc.. they will KNOW it's a fantastic event.

[BWitcher]

9 minutes ago, blupanther said:

It's not a patch on the WTC i'm afraid, and the poor crowds would seem to confirm that. As for the format, what a joke ... Please get rid of these stupid semi finals and race offs, they are only relevant in a GP format.  

No the poor crowds don't confirm anything.

The racing was as good as any WTC and the added bonus of having two riders from a team made it even better.

I don't like the way the winners are decided, BUT it did mean that almost every race was important in the final itself and the racing showed that.

If there is to be a 'grand final' then as has been said earlier, in the event of a 3-3, whomever had the most pts wins. So for last night for example, Russia would have needed a heat advantage to win.

 

[bellevueace]

I remember going to Gothenburg in 1977 just days after Collins shattered his leg hitting a grid cover at Hyde road, it was a very wet meeting and Collins shouldn't have been riding but gave it a go having to be lifted on and off his bike, he actually finished second in that world final and would have actually won it but I remember Egon Muller coming off when PC was in front but due to his injury he couldn't replicate it in the rerun, I strongly believe only for that leg injury he would have equalled Ivans three in a row, PC was that dominant at the time, throw in his maximums in the consecutive WTC finals, world pairs titles and the host of other titles allied to his outstanding ability on the bike of which ive not seen since and no Tai doesn't eclipse PC. Titles won don't tell the whole stories of a riders career, and if that had been PC in his prime last night his team riding skills would have seen Rob through or if not it would have been nip and tuck. I think the sands of time have eroded the memory of how good PC was, another example, at Hyde Road his handle bars broke in half, he won the race holding the forks with one hand and the throttle with the other, don't think we would see that today

[Sidney the robin]

2 minutes ago, nw42 said:

For another day as you say Sid, Woffinden is the man of the moment and his return to the fold has to be welcomed,  as has been said the experience Lambert gained this week will prove invaluable to him, as has also been said it's about the riders he beat rather than the ones he trailed.  It's been a good while since I've felt so animated watching a meeting, was completely absorbing, loved it.

Lambert really has impressed me this year i was worried last year that his career might just end up petering  out.Over the years i really thought Mel Taylor,Mark Courtney,( etc) could push on but none of them  ever managed it and in Lambert we can see what a real talent he  is.His next step is to keep his focus keep working hard and with the great help of his  Mum /Dad build up his aquipment he will be ready for a assault on the World stage in three years time  i believe.

[screm]

26 minutes ago, iainb said:

It was great for us Brits, we had Woffy, we were in front, we were doing all the team riding... it'd be interesting to know, as a world event, what the fans of the Poles, Swedes, Danes etc thought of it... they may have thought of the whole event as most of us thought about the opening qualifier

From the attendance I think its clear what the Poles thought of it.

[stewmac]

7 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

Good god.

Try having a read through this thread. You will see that 95% of people were slating this event, it's going to be awful etc. 

Come the end of the final, 95% of those people have now changed their tune and think it was fantastic (qualifiers aside). 

If and when the next one rolls around, fans won't be having to decide, is this going to be any good etc.. they will KNOW it's a fantastic event.

Don't understand quite why you say Good God!

I have followed the discussion from the very start for weeks and months. Perhaps the valid point that I didn't put across is that Poles would have made up the most sizeable portion of the attendance had the stadium been full. They knew the racing was going to be good no matter what the event but they did not feel attracted to the format. 

On here, I'd suggest the majority of posters are from the UK and yes they may have changed their minds but even if every one of the regular posters on here attends next season's final, that would only swell the audience by around 300-400. 

I will say again. I don't see how you are going to change the Poles' attitudes towards the format simply by saying it produced wonderful racing. They ALREADY KNOW that Wroclaw produces wonderful racing!

[Sidney the robin]

6 minutes ago, screm said:

From the attendance I think its clear what the Poles thought of it.

Are the Poles like the German's ? ( Germany did it in football) if they don't like something they just don't go vote with there feet  other nations just put up with it.

Edited June 10, 2018 by Sidney the robin

[moxey63]

43 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

I'd strongly suggest Woffinden has already surpassed Collins, at the very least equalled.

If he adds a third world title there is no argument.

It’s all about opinions. Woffinden rode really well this week, no taking that away from him. But I rate riders on how they have performed domestically - and who was in opposing starting slots when in championship racing. So, therefore, during my 40-odd years (since 1975) I put the likes of Mauger, Nielsen, Rickardsson, Crump etc in the lead. Comparisons should be, I feel, on 10-15 year periods. I must say though since about 2010 the level of competition in world speedway has dramatically dropped. I am not going to name names of current day men, but Jason Crump racing now… he could win it on a moped. Regarding Tai being the best Brit… on domestic form over here? Give your head a wobble. Two world titles, ok, but, with respect, against a near 50 year-old  who in recent times turned into being the best, I would say, simply because the best had retired (he won his second title two decades after his first, which tells you) and another man who lifted the crown who perhaps would not have stood a chance in other years?  

Edited June 10, 2018 by moxey63

[Daniel Smith]

For me the attendances were only poor because of people's long standing opinion of pairs. Plus the abysmal team pairs event run by SEC.

If anything, the SON is new with low expectations so was always going to be a tough sell. Give the competition a few tweaks (scrap warnings for semi & final and top 2 into a 2 heat race off, call it the World Cup) and this pairs tournament will take off.

If there's anything learnt, this meeting over 2 day delivered exceptional, out of this world racing.

[moomin man 76]

57 minutes ago, PHILIPRISING said:

HAD Belle Vue been the Saturday event I think you would have seen a bigger attendance. A Tuesday night at Manchester doesn't work.

Definitely true, which begs the question as to why the organisers decided to stage the event on a Tuesday evening...

There would have been plenty of fans myself included, who could have attended, but couldn't attend for a whole host of reasons. For instance, it would have been relatively easy for me to get sponsors passes to enter the pits area prior to the meeting, but it is nigh on impossible to finish work at 4.30pm in rural Cumbria and get to central Manchester for a 7pm start let alone any earlier.

More worryingly, I think the appeal of the competition is such that even if the meeting had been staged on a Saturday evening, there would have been very little likelihood of there being a full house.

 

[KIRKYLANE]

Most impressed with Michael Jepsen Jensen   ... some quality manoeuvres in his races

Tai was absolutely magnificent on the track with some quality team riding with Robert

Robert has shown his capabilities on the world stage and it augurs well for his and GB's future.

My mother who is 93 and watched speedway up until the late seventies simply said " it's not fair we scored more points and came second !!!"

Edited June 10, 2018 by KIRKYLANE