World Championship Pairs

[Mark]

9 minutes ago, racers and royals said:

Maybe just maybe  they were thinking of Poland on the following Sunday where they would be earning fortunes which they couldn’t do if they were injured trying to play games and risk ending up in the fence.

I think there is some sense in this.

27 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

Yes, he's a whinger.

Any views on Tai doing it multiple times in the qualifying races? Didn't hear the outcry about it being dangerous?

 

 

[Mark]

3 minutes ago, lucifer sam said:

What no-one has pointed out is the final of the 2017 SGB Championship Pairs at Sheffield.

Ben Barker and Charles Wright held a 7-2 for most of the race, but Wright made a mistake on the final lap and Kyle Howarth and Lasse Bjerre came though. Barker slowed entering the third bend to try to assist his team-mate, and Sheffield pair also slowed as a result, and then Charles Wright smashed into Kyle Howarth in a frightening crash.  Wright and Howarth both sustained injuries, with Wright ruled out for the rest of the season.

Similar to Manzares.    Slowing is very dangerous when it goes wrong and riders are on the limit

[iris123]

5 minutes ago, Mark said:

Similar to Manzares.    Slowing is very dangerous when it goes wrong and riders are on the limit

Lots of moves are very dangerous if they go wrong.The riders know that,but still put people in the fence etc.....they even admit they have done it on purpose on occasions,but it still doesn't stop them.In the heat of the moment and desperation to win riders will chance almost anything.....sometimes

Edited June 12, 2018 by iris123

[Noodles]

How many times did we see slowing down during the SWC for the Joker? It's nothing new to the highest levels of our sport.

If Tai played darts he'd be the type to hit hit a 180 during a pairs match when on 183 - individually brilliant but tactically a dreadful decision.

Edited June 12, 2018 by Noodles

[PHILIPRISING]

32 minutes ago, Bavarian said:

True

 

Last year for the World Games Best Pairs at Wroclaw they had a sell-out crowd simply because the organisers did not charge unreasonably high entrance fees. 

 

And it is the same reason (money) that they can not find tracks outside of Poland willing to pay for the right to host the SWC.

WROCLAW was not a BSI promoted event. It was the Rusko family who were the organisers.

[BWitcher]

27 minutes ago, Mark said:

Similar to Manzares.    Slowing is very dangerous when it goes wrong and riders are on the limit

As is moving someone over, diving up the inside, making a blast around the outside.

I once saw a rider crash and break his leg because he was trying to pass someone. Next time folks complain about a dull meeting, I'll mention it.

Manzares was simply out of his depth and made a mistake.

As for 'thinking of Poland'. Yes of course they were.. Tai thought "I'm in Poland tomorrow, I'll just take a safe second". No he went hell for leather after winning the race. Lambert and Sayfutdinov nearly collided and had zero thought of Poland the next day either.

Still good to see folks getting creative to try and avoid simply saying, Great performance GB, messed up the tactics in the final,we'll learn next time.

Was it on this thread or another where Krompa, or perhaps another Polish poster, posted the video of Tomasz Gollob, slowing Tommy Knudsen (no mug) down and eventually getting his partner through?

Edited June 12, 2018 by BWitcher

[iris123]

I think riders at the very top think they are Superman,Anything is possible and they will stay out of trouble.Doubt many top riders go to the tapes thinking this heat they might get injured.

I am actually convinced that Nicki used that 'out of control' wheelie across the entrance to the bend,to frighten off his opponents.It was risky,but he never I bet thought he would get hurt and I doubt he wanted to hurt anyone else.But it was a tick up his sleeve he was willing to use to get the points

[poole keith]

31 minutes ago, PHILIPRISING said:

WROCLAW was not a BSI promoted event. It was the Rusko family who were the organisers.

bavarian never said bsi were the promoters,you need to read the posts before jumping in

[Noodles]

Tai: “The plan was to win the final 5-1 or 4-2 and we knew we could do that so that was the goal"

Pure genius, tactical wizardry right there.

[Ghostwalker]

4 hours ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

You could potentially run an 8-nation SWC over 2 days - 2 Semi-Finals run at the same track on the same day, then a Race-Off and Final run as a double-header the next. 

The World Pairs could involve more nations and just be run as two separate Semi-Finals and a Final. 

50 heats on the same track in one day sounds a bit much imo and then there is the risk off rain off.

If I could choose I'd do OneSport's Best Pairs as a Pairs world championship with national teams in 3 events on different tracks.
I wouldn't mind having semi-finals and finals in all three events but they should. like in the SGP, only count for the points.
Then have a proper SWC sometime in June/July/August.

[stevebrum]

5 hours ago, OveFundinFan said:

Oh dear Lucifer Sam, quoting Tai saying that you set the ball going again.

Tai told us the plan ie 5-1 or 4-2, in other words Robert to beat at least one of them, probably Emil as (somehow) he was the weakest link. And it nearly happened.....until Emil shot past up the inside on the 1st/2nd bend lap 1. 

Best laid plans can go wrong, and it did.

Exactly. An explanation has been given yet still some want to pick fault.

we wondered what the tactics were and now we know. 

Some of us will have closure on why the race went the way it did.

no doubt some will still pick it apart till everyone agrees with them. 

[PHILIPRISING]

2 hours ago, poole keith said:

bavarian never said bsi were the promoters,you need to read the posts before jumping in

I DIDN'T say he did ... just pointing our who the promoers were

[Hamish McRaker]

3 hours ago, Noodles said:

Tai: “The plan was to win the final 5-1 or 4-2 and we knew we could do that so that was the goal"

Pure genius, tactical wizardry right there.

 

So there we have it. Complete faith in Robert Lambert to finish at least third, even when he was in fourth place from early on. No expectation for Woffinden to do anything but forge ahead. No expectation for him to check on the race situation behind him and respond accordingly. Was this strategy based in part on Robert having got past Janowski a few races previously? As to who decided on the strategy, who knows and who cares? 

Interesting that in Woffinden's statement (and this observation has nothing to do with the above in case anyone construes othwerwise).... in the list of key people he pays tribute to, one name is missing.....

[bruno]

If the final race is a 3-3 then the rider who wins the final he's team are champions, simple really.  Races should always be about winning regardless if it's a pairs meeting. Trying to slow races down is dangerous and makes no sense

[Grachan]

2 hours ago, bruno said:

If the final race is a 3-3 then the rider who wins the final he's team are champions, simple really.  Races should always be about winning regardless if it's a pairs meeting. Trying to slow races down is dangerous and makes no sense

I think the better way would have been that in the event of a 3-3, the top scoring side are the winners. Not just because GB were top scorers, but to make more value of those 40-odd races beforehand. So the second top scoring side would need a 4-2 to win.

Talking of that final, I was disappointed at the end, and commented on here that we might have won if Tai had slowed the race, but when you see Tai's comments, they make sense.

Basically, we went into that race with a winning mentality - to go and win the heat and, thus, go in and attack the race. Race positively. I can see the validity in that, even though it never worked (mainly because the Russians had a very strong pair and it was unlikely either of them would finish last).

In the end, Robert Lambert was very close to passing Emil at the end of the race, but never, so the tactic never worked. But they went into the race with the mindset to go out and take the race, and the main reason they never was because Russia were on a 5-1 on the first lap so GB became every man for himself. 

 

[Bagpuss]

2 hours ago, bruno said:

If the final race is a 3-3 then the rider who wins the final he's team are champions, simple really.  Races should always be about winning regardless if it's a pairs meeting. Trying to slow races down is dangerous and makes no sense

Can't agree with that, it's about getting both team members over the finish line before the opponent's two riders, as it should be. If a rider dashes off into the distance every time with no regard for his teammate a la Milik that's not pairs/team speedway.

[bruno]

Maybe,but trying to slow down high powered motorbikes is an accident waiting to happen

[Grand Central]

I have changed my mind over the last few weeks.

I do see that a decisive final is required, now. Not just for a TV climax but also because it also keeps the later heats alive and hotly contested by many teams. Don't have a final And you'll get a lot of dead races.

Just look at the British Final on Monday. It would have been dead after heat 16 as Robert had an unassailable lead at that point.

I feel that both teams should go into the final capable of winning. Whichever side wins a heat advantage in the final wins the tournament . But if there is a 3-3 in the final then that is a tie and on 'countback' the team with the higher qualifying score is the winner.

Same rules in the heat 43 race off between 2nd and 3rd scorers.

Edited June 13, 2018 by Grand Central

[IainB]

17 hours ago, lucifer sam said:

TOP BRIT Tai Woffinden says it was ‘good to be back’ riding for his country last week.
The Scunthorpe born double World Champion scored a stunning 38 points out of a possible 39 in the Monster Energy FIM Speedway of Nations Final.
But it wasn’t quite enough to hand GB the gold as Russia pipped them to the post in the final – despite Woffinden winning the race.
Now he’s looking forward to a bright new future for the national side under the franchise ownership of Rob Painter and Vicky Blackwell through their VRX Motorsport team.
“This is the first stage of a five-year plan for GB and whilst Rob Painter (team supremo) is making all the right noises I’ll be alongside him, he said.
“I want to say I’m proud of young Robert Lambert, he did a great job throughout the tournament and also a special mention to Craig Cook who travelled with us and was a big member for us as part of the team.
“It was good to be back racing for my country on a team basis.”
Woffinden has explained the circumstances behind the final in Poland – he won the decider but with Russian duo Artem Laguta and Emil Sayfutdinov claiming second and third they effectively won the race 3+1-3.
He said: “The plan was to win the final 5-1 or 4-2 and we knew we could do that so that was the goal.
“In a final like that you cannot slow down the race like I did in previous heats. The competition is just too good, maybe 10 years ago you could but at world level now anyone can beat anyone and you have to do the best job you can.
“Unfortunately the event rules state if you’re second and third you’re better then the winner! “There’s not many things in life where you get rewarded for losing!
“I would like to congratulate Emil and Artem for their world title and look forward to doing it all again next year.”
Woffinden has also congratulated newly crowned British Champion Lambert, who romped to the title with a six-ride maximum in Manchester on Monday.
“He’s the future,” said Woffinden. “Congratulations to him, he deserves it. I know what it means to win your first national title and it’s pretty special.”

 

17 hours ago, Grand Central said:

Actually the issue has NOT been answered at all.

In fact what has just been revealed is that we now KNOW they got the tactics wrong on Saturday AND now, in addition, we know that they still haven't worked that fact out.

Amazing.

I'd say it has but they just got it wrong

16 hours ago, TheReturn said:

Although the question needs to be asked who originated the plan. 

Good question!

15 hours ago, BWitcher said:

Still waiting for an explanation of why it makes perfect sense to NOT try to win a gold medal. 

You advocate it. Phillip Rising advocates it. Seems Team GB advocated it.

Champions League Final.. Liverpool trail Milan 3-0.. co managers Phil Rising and Sommelier.. "Shut up shop lads, let's not concede anymore. Silver is great! We can't take risks and chase the game at this level, not in a final, the standard is far too high"

Superbowl 51.. New England trail Atlanta by 25pts.. head coach Phil Rising...  you get the idea.

Now apply it to Speedway of Nations Pairs Final.. Sayfutidnov gets into 3rd on bend 2.. less then 15% into the race and you're advocating throwing in the white towel.

I got the idea

15 hours ago, Chadster said:

We obviously had a plan but it didn't survive the first two bends, after which the Russians were in front. Bit difficult to come up with plan B in the middle of a speedway race.

No plan B needed... Plan A, don't finish last

15 hours ago, TheReturn said:

Then someone needs a kick up the arse for not having a plan B prior to the race!  

No plan B needed... Plan A, don't finish last

14 hours ago, Mark said:

Are you a Hancock fan.    He has spoken out about slowing a race down since Manzares was injured.    Any views on that

Manzares has views on Hancock

[TheReturn]

2 hours ago, iainb said:

No plan B needed... Plan A, don't finish last

 

Ok, but if rider B needed help to stick to Plan A, then rider A needed to originate a Plan B mid-race to help rider B, achieve Plan A.... Or Manager C should have ensured Rider A had a plan B in case Plan A was failing.