World Championship Pairs

[PHILIPRISING]

17 minutes ago, iris123 said:

Yes,that is probably it.He went off in the hope that Artem's natural racing instinct would get the better of him and he would lose control trying to catch Tai,thus handing the win to us. Best theory I have heard so far

THANK you...

[Dave the Mic]

19 hours ago, WalterPlinge said:

In our round, Sweden and GB qualified straight for the final.   Australia came through what you could call the  race-off heats for best losers.   There wasn't a Friday race-off meeting as in the SWC.  Friday and Saturday were both the final.

If you can’t answer sensibly, don’t bother. The two qualifying meetings were named race offs. 

[Midland Red]

2 hours ago, PHILIPRISING said:

I WILL try one last time ... I believe that Emil is too good to allow a rider like Lambert to pass him no matter what Tai might have done. I am as entitled to my view as any. Doesn't make me right. Or wrong. 

What part of "if Woffinden had slowed to block Emil, Lambert might have had a chance to pass him" do you not understand?

It's not a case of Emil v Lambert (agree with you, Emil should win from a leading position), it's about Emil having to deal with Woffinden in front as well as Lambert who wasn't that far behind

 

[Dave the Mic]

2 hours ago, TheReturn said:

FFS, why don't you people get it. Why is talk of Tai dropping back biased?   It's not biased to simply suggest that the they got the tactics wrong. 

You're right they made a tremendous achievement, but the record books will show the winners were Russia. who got their tactics right.  

So let me understand this correctly. Because someone won’t see your POV, they are wrong and you are right? Listen to yourself

[WalterPlinge]

10 minutes ago, Dave the Mic said:

If you can’t answer sensibly, don’t bother. The two qualifying meetings were named race offs. 

Trying to twist it now eh?

As you well know, the Race-Offs we were talking about are a last chance to get to the final for teams who don't qualify direct for the final from their opening round.   They happened in the old SWC, but not in the new SON.

 

 

[IainB]

8 minutes ago, Dave the Mic said:

So let me understand this correctly. Because someone won’t see your POV, they are wrong and you are right? Listen to yourself

I don't think it's about who is right and who is wrong... What a lot of people are trying to understand is why somebody with such experience of the sport and has written about it for many years can't really explain why he thinks Tai shouldn't have held Emil up to help Robert get by to win a world title other than it was unlikely that Robert would have got by... The thing is that's why we all like sport because sometimes the unlikely happens

Edited June 10, 2018 by iainb

[tyler42]

8 hours ago, adonis said:

what you got with this silly format ,was an undeserving winner , pissed of supporters . and NO media interesr 

So after two days of racing Russia was only one point behind us. They then had to go into a stupid race of with Poland, who were 9 pts behind them.

Fortunately for us (the supporters) the best two teams met in the final. We all knew the format at the start of the week.

How many people would have thought GB would ride so superbly and actually go straight to the final? Not many i would hazard a guess.

So for you to say they were undeserving winners is rather harsh. I wonder what the majority on here would have said if GB did not make the final race.

I don't think there would have be so much complaining about the format.

[SpeedyOne]

1 hour ago, norbold said:

I have always been a great admirer of Tai's on-track exploits and there is no doubt there is a strong case to say he is Britain's best-ever. Certainly in the top 4. And the way he rode during the SON certainly emphasises that and furthers his cause in that respect no end. So, like a lot of posters on here who have commented on the final race, I have no dislike of Tai nor any need to "attack" him. And I find it speaks volumes for the paucity of the argument of others when they have to resort to that line of reasoning when trying to answer the criticism that he should have done more to help Lambert in the final. It would be much better to give some sort of reasoned argument why they feel his tactics in the last race were correct rather than attacking everyone as "Tai haters".

To his credit, Philip has tried to do just that without ad hominem attacks, but, in my opinion, has failed miserably to make out any case at all why Tai should have just gone for the win and forget his partner. Yes, we know the chances of his shepherding Rob through past the world class Sayfutdinov were close to zero, but there was no alternative, given the rules. What difference did it make to the overall position that Tai storms off to win? There was only one chance of victory last night and that was for Rob not to come last. Other than last himself, it was irrelevant where Tai finished up. He could have stormed off and won in a new track record for all the difference it made. The only tactic he had was to hang back and try and help, however difficult that was.

Can someone please give a good reason why they think Tai was right to do what he did without dismissing people who disagree as "Tai haters"?

Spot on.

I'm quite an admirer of Tai, but I can see he was wrong to do what he did in the final.   The only thing to do was to hold back, try to help Lambert, try to mess Emil up.   It most likely wouldn't have worked, but it was the ONLY thing available to try.

[The Little Un]

7 hours ago, nw42 said:

Agreed it was a good post but I think he's referring to the future when Tai becomes Britain's greatest ever,  given his previous successes and time on his side he probably will achieve the status, here's hoping because it will only benefit British speedway.

 

Meanwhile I think Peter Collins stands out as the greatest British rider.

Neither were or are so far better than Peter Craven. So far by far the best rider Britain has ever had.

[The Little Un]

6 hours ago, stewmac said:

Poles have been watching the racing from Wroclaw all season on TV and in person. The stadium is full or almost full every league match. It's been quite outstanding this year. Why would it have been any different for this? The stadium was hardly half full either day, suggesting that even though they knew the racing would be great, they didn't want the format. I don't see how that will change....

Is that a joke, I have watched many Polish league matches where the stadiums were less than half full.

[stevebrum]

9 hours ago, adonis said:

does it automatically make you a Tai hater if you  dont have your tongue down the back of his trousers , regardless of your opinion on some of his actions . if so put me on the list of tai haters 

No it doesn’t, but some only attack him no matter what he does. If you fit into that camp then the cap fits, so to speak.

i doubt you have a good word to say about Tai anyway so if that makes you a Tai hater then you have outed yourself.

how anyone’s can hate on him after that virtual single handed performance of keeping us at the top of the leader board. Still, each to their own. Haters gotta hate I guess.

8 hours ago, nw42 said:

I think you're misreading the mood here, virtually every poster has said how fantastic he has been all week, and he has, he's gone up a few notches in my estimation for his selfless riding all week.  He's been an absolute pleasure to watch, always looking for Lambert and only leaving him when at risk of losing the win, Rob Lambert must have learned so much from him this week, amazing throttle control.

That said, there are plenty of us who, having watched him shepherd Lambert all week, are left wondering why he opted to go after Laguta in the final when the only real chance of taking the title was to get Lambert ahead of Emil, after all he'd been doing that all week where possible.

One or 2 have called him selfish but the vast majority have had nothing but praise for him, it's only natural to wonder why he didn't consider mixing it with Emil.  Of course it's easy for us armchair experts to say he should have done it, doesn't mean we aren't proud of his efforts.

I’m not misreading any mood here. I caught up late on the meeting and thread and saw all the expected glowing reports of how magnificent Tai was. Then after the final race plenty jumped on board with the Tai is all self self, cost us the win blahdeblah. I think I captured the mood perfectly actually.

8 hours ago, one of clubs said:

There is no doubt the two Brits deserved to win the title, but the fact remains that they did not. I will give Tai credit for a great performance in the SON  and in his two World titles but to say he is on course to become the greatest ever is way off the mark. That accolade belongs to Peter Collins for his individual, team and pairs world championship honours.

It’s simpley not way off the mark at all.

PC rode in an era when GB ruled the world. So his team and country achievements were slightly easier because of this. No taking away his achievements in this of course.

Collins only won 1 world title, those are the facts. Tai has already won 2 and is looking good enough for a 3rd this year.

Woffy has virtually single handedly achieve Silver for GB in the World Cup and now the Pairs by scoring massive points to make up for the below standard of his fellow GB riders. An incredible achievement.

it is absolutely fair to suggest he is close to being our best ever British rider.

[stevebrum]

11 minutes ago, The Little Un said:

Neither were or are so far better than Peter Craven. So far by far the best rider Britain has ever had.

Completely subjective.

[The Little Un]

4 hours ago, Big Al said:

Presumably you are a former rider? Could you go through exactly how Tai Woffinden should have engineered the race so as to enable Lambert to pass Sayfutdinov, without undue risk to himself being passed by the Russian.

By the way I take no offence at your language.

It would have mattered little to the final result if Tai had been overtaken.

[tyler42]

12 minutes ago, The Little Un said:

Neither were or are so far better than Peter Craven. So far by far the best rider Britain has ever had.

 All three riders were from different eras. I am biased, because P.C was my idol, Peter Craven i never saw and as for Tai. Well his record is up there with the other two. In terms of World Championships, one better than the other two. Their wins were over 20 heats of racing, where one mistake and it was over. Tai's was over a season, where a bad meeting did not mean you still could not win it. So its all if's and but's I think you can't compare there achievements. Can we just say they were and Tai is still great riders and British!!.

 

b

[Aces51]

50 minutes ago, stevebrum said:

Completely subjective.

Those of us who have witnessed speedway from that era to the present day are better able to make a judgement. Peter Craven raced in an era when there was the big 5, Craven, Fundin, Moore, Briggs and Knutsson, who were all capable of winning the World Title and did so.  Peter was unfortunately killed when only 29 and I have no doubt would have added to his achievements had he lived longer. Tai is without doubt an outstanding rider as he proved again this weekend. Where he will eventually stand in the overall ratings has yet to be seen but at the moment the quality of opposition at the highest level is not where it was in the the Craven or Collins eras or indeed, in the days of Rickardsson and Crump. At the moment I rate both PC's more highly but that could change.

Edited June 10, 2018 by Aces51

[martinmauger]

Adding my 2p's worth: the competition went better than I thought, Polish crowds didn't necessarily agree, flippin' brilliant watching GB battle all the way to the very last race.  Agree it the final heat was more about who didn't finish last than who won the race, sadly some might say, but it was a pairs comp so probably 4, 3, 2, 0 scoring might have been better for the final heat, if not the entire compeition.  And I enjoyed the tension/ excitement of the 'absolutely, positively must get a result' so-called pressure heats, and only have the one Final.  We don't know the GB thoughts / tactics before the last Fnal 2 heat, but possibly riders aren't used to others slowing down in front these days to block and / or the charteristics of modern engines don't permit it safely.   We saw the Zagar / Manzares incedent and in Final 1 there was an almost a repeat with GB v Smolinski, we could debate forever.  I will say GB as a team rode the best they could and should be proud.  Rossiter did the right thing using Lambert as much as he did, while there was no guarrantee Cook would have done better, Rosco couldn't risk maybe using a heat to risk it.  He had 2 riders going good, so use them.  I don't buy '2nd is the first of the losers', you can't win all the time and 2nd is still very good': use the silver medal as motivation to turn it into gold next time.

Finally, Tai is obviously the more experienced at this level of the 3 GB riders, and it showed, and was on his own track for the Finals the others will no doubt learn from the SON, but whether some like him or not: he rode freakin' brilliant....

[nw42]

32 minutes ago, stevebrum said:

 

I’m not misreading any mood here. I caught up late on the meeting and thread and saw all the expected glowing reports of how magnificent Tai was. Then after the final race plenty jumped on board with the Tai is all self self, cost us the win blahdeblah. I think I captured the mood perfectly actually.

 

Plenty you say, I said a couple,  The mood wasn't all about Tai bashing, far from it, we just wondered why he hadn't helped Lambert, nothing more nothing less.

Like you said you caught up late, maybe your attention was drawn to the odd posters who had a go at Tai,  far in the minority.

 

[stevebrum]

7 minutes ago, Aces51 said:

Those of us who have witnessed speedway from that era to the present day are better able to make a judgement. Peter Craven raced in an era when there was the big 5, Craven, Fundin, Moore, Briggs and Knutson, who were all capable of winning the World Title and did so.  Peter was unfortunately killed when only 29 and I have no doubt would have added to his achievements had he lived longer. Tai is without doubt an outstanding rider as he proved again this weekend. Where he will eventually stand in the overall ratings has yet to be seen but at the moment the quality of opposition at the highest level is not where it was in the the Craven or Collins eras or indeed, in the days of Rickardsson and Crump. At the moment I rate both PC's more highly but that could change.

Ah, the old I was there so no better than you do argument.

what riders would, should, could have, achieved has no place then or today.  Riders and their history stand by what they achieve or achieved. I’ve seen plenty of riders from several eras.

Tai will rightly be judged when his career is over and what he has achieved. As it stands he is still in consideration to be the best British rider of any era. Achievements will help us make that judgement.

[PHILIPRISING]

5 minutes ago, martinmauger said:

Adding my 2p's worth: the competition went better than I thought, Polish crowds didn't necessarily agree, flippin' brilliant watching GB battle all the way to the very last race.  Agree it the final heat was more about who didn't finish last than who won the race, sadly some might say, but it was a pairs comp so probably 4, 3, 2, 0 scoring might have been better for the final heat, if not the entire compeition.  And I enjoyed the tension/ excitement of the 'absolutely, positively must get a result' so-called pressure heats, and only have the one Final.  We don't know the GB thoughts / tactics before the last Fnal 2 heat, but possibly riders aren't used to others slowing down in front these days to block and / or the charteristics of modern engines don't permit it safely.   We saw the Zagar / Manzares incedent and in Final 1 there was an almost a repeat with GB v Smolinski, we could debate forever.  I will say GB as a team rode the best they could and should be proud.  Rossiter did the right thing using Lambert as much as he did, while there was no guarrantee Cook would have done better, Rosco couldn't risk maybe using a heat to risk it.  He had 2 riders going good, so use them.  I don't buy '2nd is the first of the losers', you can't win all the time and 2nd is still very good': use the silver medal as motivation to turn it into gold next time.

Finally, Tai is obviously the more experienced at this level of the 3 GB riders, and it showed, and was on his own track for the Finals the others will no doubt learn from the SON, but whether some like him or not: he rode freakin' brilliant....

EFFECTIVELY it was 4-3-2-0 in the final ... 2nd and 3rd trumped 1st

[The Little Un]

29 minutes ago, tyler42 said:

 All three riders were from different eras. I am biased, because P.C was my idol, Peter Craven i never saw and as for Tai. Well his record is up there with the other two. In terms of World Championships, one better than the other two. Their wins were over 20 heats of racing, where one mistake and it was over. Tai's was over a season, where a bad meeting did not mean you still could not win it. So its all if's and but's I think you can't compare there achievements. Can we just say they were and Tai is still great riders and British!!.

 

 

Peter Craven won two world championship titles.