SCB Posted January 7, 2018 Report Share Posted January 7, 2018 5 minutes ago, Hodgy said: Which again begs the question, therefore why do they often choose the more expensive, ‘foreign dross’ option? I think we are agreeing with you, just discussing the reasoning. Because Workington paid a stupid amount of money for Mason Campton a number of years ago form Glasgow based on God only knows what. A promoter who had been given a load of cash after an accident and didn't know the value of money so just went mad it would seem. She now sticks with Mason Campton because having paid all that money, to throw him away now would mean losing that initial investment, she still probably hopes and prays every night Mason is going to come good so she can get back some of that alleged £12,000. If she drops Mason he'll go back to Aus and never be heard of again. Now if she was going to use Joe Jacobs she'd have to pay a loan fee, so on top of losing her investment in Campton, she's also paying to rent someone else riders. Scrap the asset system and she has zero investment in Campton beyond his 1 year contract and she can sign Jacobs at no cost. In short, promoters love a foreign rider because they cost nothing to sign and if they turn out to be any good they get loan fees. Yet young Brits are often snapped up as assets by Premiership clubs and sent out on loan and cost the Championship teams money. Scrap the asset system and I'm sure you'll see less promoters risking it with dodgy foreigners based on one or two meetings in Aus or individuals in September/October and more promoters willing to take a risk on young British riders. In scrapping the asset system I'd be willing to allow every club to have until January 1st to first call on a rider, if they offer him terms that match any other club then the poaching club has to pay the poached from club a fee or you would have a situation where the rich club would just sweep up all the good, young riders each closed season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scaramanga Posted January 7, 2018 Report Share Posted January 7, 2018 it does make you wonder if its cheaper putting a foriegn rider up under the sponsership signing thingy than paying a signingon fee and maybe higher demands of some british riders that need high fees because theres no way they will score enough points to make enough on points money Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurntFaceMan Posted January 7, 2018 Report Share Posted January 7, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, foamfence said: I see he has announced his retirement on Twitter. Assuming this isn't another Josh Bates style incident, then it's certainly a shame. There is something very wrong when our own riders can't get a place or can't double-up, yet quite a few untried or low grade overseas riders will be in the starting line-ups and plenty of overseas riders will be doubling-up. Priority should be with all home riders until they all have a place. They aren't hungry enough. Don't blame the foreign riders for working harder and committing more fully to their cause. What you're proposing would be like saying British people should get employment priority over foreigners, regardless of their skill level or commitment. Foreign riders tend to achieve far more over their career span than British riders. Why would you pick consistently stagnant British riders, the majority of which never seem to really commit to the sport, their fitness or their ability and seem to float around the same low skill level for the majority of their career, when you can bring in foreign riders who more often that not leave the leave with a higher average than they came in on? Other than 1 or 2 British riders, I'd put my money on the foreign rider 9 times out of 10. Edited January 7, 2018 by BurntFaceMan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonny the spud Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 Most British riders can’t compete with foreigners in terms of equipment as sponsorship seems so hard to come by in the UK. Until a foreign rider turns up that that is and then his bike will be covered in British sponsors. Sigh 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foamfence Posted January 8, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 7 hours ago, BurntFaceMan said: They aren't hungry enough. Don't blame the foreign riders for working harder and committing more fully to their cause. What you're proposing would be like saying British people should get employment priority over foreigners, regardless of their skill level or commitment. Foreign riders tend to achieve far more over their career span than British riders. Why would you pick consistently stagnant British riders, the majority of which never seem to really commit to the sport, their fitness or their ability and seem to float around the same low skill level for the majority of their career, when you can bring in foreign riders who more often that not leave the leave with a higher average than they came in on? Other than 1 or 2 British riders, I'd put my money on the foreign rider 9 times out of 10. Because those 'foreign riders' often come from countries that protect their own. It is supposed to be BRITISH speedway but according to you we should just exist as a training ground for foreign youngsters or those who just use us as an easy meal ticket. Fair enough, if that's what you want, it isn't what I want though and I would suspect that the majority of fans would support prioritising our own riders or at least having a set minimum number in each side. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bagpuss Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 (edited) No doubt this brainwave that the CL promoters have had (as explained on Edinburgh thread) in getting new foreigners over here on lower averages has contributed to Jacobs packing in and Perks falling to get a spot. How many more Brits well suffer? Edited January 8, 2018 by Bagpuss 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattK Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 16 minutes ago, Bagpuss said: No doubt this brainwave that the CL promoters have had (as explained on Edinburgh thread) in getting new foreigners over here on lower averages has contributed to Jacobs packing in and Perks falling to get a spot. How many more Brits well suffer? As far as I can see there are three Premiership clubs who have yet to declare more than one rider and two clubs still with spaces. Likewise there is one (Newcastle) Championship club who have only declared two riders and a further half a dozen spaces still to fill. Therefore the claims that there are a dozen or so British riders who rode in the various leagues last season but have been frozen out for 2018 seems a tad premature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arnieg Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 11 hours ago, 25yearfan said: In fairness Joe Jacobs was never going to be more than a 6pt 2nd Division rider at the very most! But he's had less chances than many 2nd/3rd rate foriegners! If he'd of been about in the 1970's Joe would of had more rides for teams! By definition half the riders in the league will have averages of under six. Get rid of them all and you've just halved the number of riders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foamfence Posted January 8, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 3 hours ago, MattK said: As far as I can see there are three Premiership clubs who have yet to declare more than one rider and two clubs still with spaces. Likewise there is one (Newcastle) Championship club who have only declared two riders and a further half a dozen spaces still to fill. Therefore the claims that there are a dozen or so British riders who rode in the various leagues last season but have been frozen out for 2018 seems a tad premature. Most of the clubs you mention do actually know their line-ups but have various reasons for staggering the declaration, Redcar for instance have known their line-up for months but only declare a limited number of names at each of their fund raising nights, the theory being that it'll attract more fans to these events. When Ellis Perks declares that he hasn't got a club with whom to start the season, he does actually know that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattJ81 Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 Jacobs says in his press release that he needed to find a club in the Premiership and Championship to make speedway financially viable which obviously makes it more complicated. Interesting that he sees that he can only make speedway pay if he doubles up, he does mention that he has a job outside of the sport too - although after his omission in 2017 that would be a necessity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halifaxtiger Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 13 hours ago, Hodgy said: Not so sure you have answered the question as intended. No, they haven't. 13 hours ago, SCB said: Because Workington paid a stupid amount of money for Mason Campton a number of years ago form Glasgow based on God only knows what. A promoter who had been given a load of cash after an accident and didn't know the value of money so just went mad it would seem. She now sticks with Mason Campton because having paid all that money, to throw him away now would mean losing that initial investment, she still probably hopes and prays every night Mason is going to come good so she can get back some of that alleged £12,000. If she drops Mason he'll go back to Aus and never be heard of again. Now if she was going to use Joe Jacobs she'd have to pay a loan fee, so on top of losing her investment in Campton, she's also paying to rent someone else riders. Scrap the asset system and she has zero investment in Campton beyond his 1 year contract and she can sign Jacobs at no cost. In short, promoters love a foreign rider because they cost nothing to sign and if they turn out to be any good they get loan fees. Yet young Brits are often snapped up as assets by Premiership clubs and sent out on loan and cost the Championship teams money. Scrap the asset system and I'm sure you'll see less promoters risking it with dodgy foreigners based on one or two meetings in Aus or individuals in September/October and more promoters willing to take a risk on young British riders. In scrapping the asset system I'd be willing to allow every club to have until January 1st to first call on a rider, if they offer him terms that match any other club then the poaching club has to pay the poached from club a fee or you would have a situation where the rich club would just sweep up all the good, young riders each closed season. Personally, I think your arguments in favour of employing British riders are more persuasive - and this isn't just about Mason Campton. To me, the problem is less about the asset system and more about doubling up. Restrict the number of riders that can do so and its likely that both Jacobs and Ellis Perks would have found at least one team place. Speaking of Campton , having watched him last season of the Workington riders that finished 2017 he was the first one I would have named in the team this year. His average increased by over a point in 2017 and he looked a far better rider both home and away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 15 hours ago, Halifaxtiger said: While I very much see your point here, you have to ask why 'foreign dross' is preferred to British riders. When it comes to low average riders it will often be because they can bring in a foreign lad and he will become an asset while a British lad will already be signed to another club. They may well not have to pay a loan fee on a British youngster if he is unproven but they stand to gain nothing in the long term. They can bring in a youngster from abroad on a recommendation , pay whatever the current rate is that they have to towards his living costs, find him a place to live and use of a workshop and then he is worth giving time to develop in their team because if he does OK he will eventually make them some money. It makes much more sense to give him a good amount of time to learn the trade at his home track. Give a British lad who is somebody else's asset a team place and if he doesn't score in the first couple of meetings you can replace him with somebody else. The asset system while I can see why Promoters in general support it to my way of thinking is massively detrimental to the future of the sport in this country. Shame about Joe's retirement as he has the potential to be a good, long term servant to a club who the fans would like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattK Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 3 minutes ago, Vince said: When it comes to low average riders it will often be because they can bring in a foreign lad and he will become an asset while a British lad will already be signed to another club. They may well not have to pay a loan fee on a British youngster if he is unproven but they stand to gain nothing in the long term. Isn't it a lot simpler than that? Speedway is a numbers game. The team who's riders make the biggest improvements will be the most successful. A untried foreigner is likely to have a biggest swing in their average (up or down) than a British rider who have gained a real average from a whole season. Therefore clubs are happy to take a punt, as that is the best way of delivering on track success? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teaboy279 Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 For me this should be a watershed moment for people who ru(i)n our great sport. When a young British talent who 2 seasons ago could be seen whacking round the NSS beating all manor of genuine international level riders on sky sports, who ups his average and is able to compete at Elite level has to miss a season due to his high average, punishing the lad for developing and improving. And a season later faced with the same fate decides to hang up his boots. Something is seriously amiss with the way the sport is being run. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 1 hour ago, Halifaxtiger said: Personally, I think your arguments in favour of employing British riders are more persuasive - and this isn't just about Mason Campton. What other sub 7 point Aussies keep getting jobs in the UK? Picking is about to have a second season at Edinburgh but a few others have been kicked out. What makes Campton a special case? Is he sleeping with someone at immigration? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Vince said: When it comes to low average riders it will often be because they can bring in a foreign lad and he will become an asset while a British lad will already be signed to another club. They may well not have to pay a loan fee on a British youngster if he is unproven but they stand to gain nothing in the long term. They can bring in a youngster from abroad on a recommendation , pay whatever the current rate is that they have to towards his living costs, find him a place to live and use of a workshop and then he is worth giving time to develop in their team because if he does OK he will eventually make them some money. It makes much more sense to give him a good amount of time to learn the trade at his home track. Give a British lad who is somebody else's asset a team place and if he doesn't score in the first couple of meetings you can replace him with somebody else. The asset system while I can see why Promoters in general support it to my way of thinking is massively detrimental to the future of the sport in this country. Shame about Joe's retirement as he has the potential to be a good, long term servant to a club who the fans would like. In the SS 30/12, there is a piece on (I think) Redcar and it explains how the asset system is being actively used to deliver the team's 'bond' to the BSPA.. Hence riders yet to ride here are having their averages lowered to make them more attractive to be signed... Teams are/were being encouraged/made to, sign more assets so presumably as assets they can be sold/loaned in the case of the club going bust through the season? Hello more East and Western European journeymen with more than the odd Scandinavian thrown in... Sign five and who knows one may be worth the gamble? Edited January 8, 2018 by mikebv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronScorpion Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 1 hour ago, SCB said: What other sub 7 point Aussies keep getting jobs in the UK? Picking is about to have a second season at Edinburgh but a few others have been kicked out. What makes Campton a special case? Is he sleeping with someone at immigration? I was wondering the same towards the end of this last season, when we knew we were losing Ryan Douglas. He was signed on a 3 year visa giving him time to adjust to a new country, lifestyle riding differing tracks. He had been hampered by injuries & confidence issues but trying the GTR from the start of the season left him with a mountain to climb. How many other Aussies are on long term visa's as I expect Campton to be one of them. I did note down that there were over a dozen that had not reached a 7point average. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 4 hours ago, Halifaxtiger said: To me, the problem is less about the asset system and more about doubling up. Restrict the number of riders that can do so and its likely that both Jacobs and Ellis Perks would have found at least one team place. But isn't Jacobs retiring because he can't get team places in BOTH leagues? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halifaxtiger Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 4 hours ago, SCB said: What other sub 7 point Aussies keep getting jobs in the UK? Picking is about to have a second season at Edinburgh but a few others have been kicked out. What makes Campton a special case? Is he sleeping with someone at immigration? It isn't just about Aussies, though, is it ? Its 'foreign dross' , not 'Aussie dross'. If you count up the numbers, I think there are about a dozen others who have been here for a couple of seasons at least and are still under 7 - Cameron Heeps, for example, will be starting his 8th consecutive season in British Speedway in 2018 and he's still under 7.00. 2 hours ago, BWitcher said: But isn't Jacobs retiring because he can't get team places in BOTH leagues? Yes, that's what he has said - although whether its a reasonable expectation for a rider of Jacobs age and ability to get a doubling up role is questionable. Perhaps Perks would be a better example. He can't get a place anywhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 12 minutes ago, Halifaxtiger said: It isn't just about Aussies, though, is it ? Its 'foreign dross' , not 'Aussie dross'. If you count up the numbers, I think there are about a dozen others who have been here for a couple of seasons at least and are still under 7 - Cameron Heeps, for example, will be starting his 8th consecutive season in British Speedway in 2018 and he's still under 7.00. Of course it’s about Aussies (Russians, Argentinians and Americans) because they need work permits. Sadly we can’t do anything about dross like Jan Graversen and Rafal Konopka. Cameron Heeps is British. Or at least British parents or something. He come in a 3 point average. Again, not a lot that can be done about him. It’s sickening that as a sport we’re insentivizing the signing of foreigners. That’s actually illegal. Yet the sport is doing it and two promoters have put out press releasing saying as much. Do it the other way around and people cry racist and point it that’s illegal but here we are lowering the assessed average figure to encourage more foreigners ffs! I just don’t get how anyone can defend and justify that but here we have a thread with people going it and a sport with promoters actively doing it. Give it a few years when all British riders have been forced out and the same promoters will be asking why the sport is dead in this county. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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