DC2 Posted January 7, 2018 Report Share Posted January 7, 2018 On 05/01/2018 at 2:41 PM, 1 valve said: whilst both fall short of the 17 you propose there are two other significant aspects to consider. 1. at any one time there are circa 10% of riders unavailable through one reason or another (mostly injury) so reality is there would be a lot of guest riders required. 2. Safety would also be a greater issue as there is a massive skill difference between say the top 25% of the Premier league riders and the lower 25% of the Championship riders. I recall Jason Doyle a few seasons back voicing his concerns in this regard and this point should not be readily ignored. I think you’re wrong on all three points: rider shortage is a myth; there are plenty to go around without doubling up - look at the new Scandinavians coming into the CL, the Brits who cannot get places and the 8 point PL riders/potential returners who have been frozen out - so we could easily have seventeen teams in one league, especially if two under 23 NL Brits at reserve were compulsory; guests come from the other teams, so there would be plenty as long as every team did not ride on the same night; Jason Doyle spent the whole of last season riding against 2 pointers (and the whole Poole team ) so wobblers aren’t impossible to overcome, in fact they should be behind by the first bend or easily overtaken with faster bikes and better track craft. His injuries come in the GPs when he over rides or takes bigger risks. Let’s have one league, the British League; much better than these Premiership and Championship delusions! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebrum Posted January 7, 2018 Report Share Posted January 7, 2018 9 hours ago, BWitcher said: They wouldn't. The majority of fans would go to the senior team and skip the 'reserve team'. Where are you getting £12-15 from? Second division teams are already charging nearly as much as first division sides as it is, i.e. more than £12-15. Most Championship teams charge only a pound or 2 less than the top flight. It's usually the 2nd tier that is the overpriced one. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poolebolton Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 I honestly believe that the league this year is actually stronger than last year. Top end has been reduced but we have seen an influx of much better 5 ish point riders. There is still a huge gulf in class. Let’s just look at a team. All of Pooles team ride in top 2 tiers of Polish speedway. Leicester will have Danny King most likely at number 4. While Ipswich will have him at 1. Huge gulf in class still. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INCOGNITO Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 1 hour ago, poolebolton said: I honestly believe that the league this year is actually stronger than last year. Top end has been reduced but we have seen an influx of much better 5 ish point riders. There is still a huge gulf in class. Let’s just look at a team. All of Pooles team ride in top 2 tiers of Polish speedway. Leicester will have Danny King most likely at number 4. While Ipswich will have him at 1. Huge gulf in class still. Nick Morris number one at Lakeside and Swindon Chris Harris number one at Rye House number 5 at Glasgow the difference between the two leagues is virtually swapping the number one from a Premiership team with a National League rider 2 hours ago, stevebrum said: Most Championship teams charge only a pound or 2 less than the top flight. It's usually the 2nd tier that is the overpriced one. Both over priced really but agree the Championship is vastly over priced considering the wage bill and running costs are much more in the Premiership. £17-18 is too much in the present climate and considering other entertainments available and the standard of riders now present in Britain it's hard to see why it's over £15 and certainly not an attractive price to try and entice people into the sport. A friend end recently went to an Aston Villa match and paid £20 for a seat in a grandstand to watch 90 minutes of football then the following day had a day at the races for £10. Had he of taken his wife and kids to a speedway meeting he would have been looking at roughly £50 while a family ticket at the racing was £20. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g13webb Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 18 hours ago, T.N.T. said: Many years ago (well over a decade) I came up with the idea that became known by some as the TNT Master plan and that was having one big league at an affordable level. But surely , this idea is directed to only a few clubs. That is the reasons why our sport is in the troubles it is, too many promoters thinking about number one.. Any ideas has to be aimed at the sport as a whole, one that can be sustainable and be beneficial to all parties. Most supporters are sensible people and can see the numbers don't add up, they know the days of top riders has gone. others, just bury their heads, thinking that don't mean us, we're alright Jack !! but I would rather we restructure now and continue to watch some speedway in the future, than see more clubs fall by the wayside...... If that means only a single league then so be it....... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aces High Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 7 hours ago, INCOGNITO said: £17-18 is too much in the present climate and considering other entertainments available and the standard of riders now present in Britain it's hard to see why it's over £15 and certainly not an attractive price to try and entice people into the sport. A friend end recently went to an Aston Villa match and paid £20 for a seat in a grandstand to watch 90 minutes of football then the following day had a day at the races for £10. Had he of taken his wife and kids to a speedway meeting he would have been looking at roughly £50 while a family ticket at the racing was £20. Totally see where you are coming from but it is worth bearing in mind that neither of those sports rely on gate receipts as their primary source of income. While we would all like the price of speedway to be less I think it is fairly obvious what would happen if it was. Speedway is stuck in an impossible place. Every sport that is trying to survive on gate receipts alone is struggling but the only option for speedway is TV. Sky tried but are no longer interested and they don't seem to be able to offer BT the product that they want. It doesn't help that little of the sky money seems to have been invested in making the stadiums look a bit better which doesn't exactly help sell the sport to TV either. Cutting costs to maintain will work in the short term but sensible investment is the only way to survive long term. Slightly off topic but £20 for football is dirt cheap too....tickets for my club (Leicester) usually cost £38-48 and were pretty similar to that in the Championship. Good on Villa for offering reasonable prices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveLyric2 Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 5 hours ago, g13webb said: But surely , this idea is directed to only a few clubs. That is the reasons why our sport is in the troubles it is, too many promoters thinking about number one.. Any ideas has to be aimed at the sport as a whole, one that can be sustainable and be beneficial to all parties. Most supporters are sensible people and can see the numbers don't add up, they know the days of top riders has gone. others, just bury their heads, thinking that don't mean us, we're alright Jack !! but I would rather we restructure now and continue to watch some speedway in the future, than see more clubs fall by the wayside...... If that means only a single league then so be it....... Sorry, have I missed something? Who are these clubs that have 'fallen by the wayside' due to financial issues?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Najjer Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 38 minutes ago, Skidder1 said: Sorry, have I missed something? Who are these clubs that have 'fallen by the wayside' due to financial issues?! Eastbourne, Birmingham, Lakeside in the top division all had to drop out because they couldn't afford it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebrum Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 10 minutes ago, Najjer said: Eastbourne, Birmingham, Lakeside in the top division all had to drop out because they couldn't afford it... Lakeside's issues were to do with the tenancy of the stadium, not finances . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Najjer Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 58 minutes ago, stevebrum said: Lakeside's issues were to do with the tenancy of the stadium, not finances . I believe they have been quoted in the past as saying they had lost thousands of pounds also? You can then add in other clubs from the lower divisions like Newport & Plymouth who haven't been able to make it pay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebrum Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 1 hour ago, Najjer said: I believe they have been quoted in the past as saying they had lost thousands of pounds also? You can then add in other clubs from the lower divisions like Newport & Plymouth who haven't been able to make it pay. Yes they did say that running Fridays was costing them money and the uncertainty of the lease being the final straw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g13webb Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 3 hours ago, Skidder1 said: Sorry, have I missed something? Who are these clubs that have 'fallen by the wayside' due to financial issues?! It has been disclosed in the SS and on this forum that there were only 3 clubs who didn't run at a lost last year. You don't have to be Einstein to appreciate the dire situation our sport is in. When I posted my original comment , I would've put you in the first grouping, but following the above comment, probably you come in the second grouping... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveLyric2 Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 If the 'days of top riders are really gone' then why the need to introduce the 'only one 8 & over' rule?? Surely if clubs can't afford them then they wouldn't be signed?! If only a few clubs can afford them then why not let them have a small 'Super League' (or Super Cup) with minimal fixtures?! If those fixtures were not supported in sufficient numbers or sponsorship then drop it!! All the other spare dates in the fixture list to be filled by the 'One PL/CL League' fixtures. Its not the same as a PL club running a NL team with minimal attendance. Surely that appeals to the majority of fans who have the choice of everything the sport can offer. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g13webb Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 44 minutes ago, Skidder1 said: If the 'days of top riders are really gone' then why the need to introduce the 'only one 8 & over' rule?? Surely if clubs can't afford them then they wouldn't be signed?! If only a few clubs can afford them then why not let them have a small 'Super League' (or Super Cup) with minimal fixtures?! If those fixtures were not supported in sufficient numbers or sponsorship then drop it!! All the other spare dates in the fixture list to be filled by the 'One PL/CL League' fixtures. Its not the same as a PL club running a NL team with minimal attendance. Surely that appeals to the majority of fans who have the choice of everything the sport can offer. There is no place in our sport for one or two strong teams, they would do more damage than anything else and remove those fans who have little of chance of success . The only way to induce enthusiasm is to have competitive teams all with a chance of winning. Your idea of a small super league (Super Cup) when benefit only a few supporter, but would do immense collateral damage to our struggling existence . If a team in the SC used same squad in both leagues they would be deemed way too strong for the remaining teams in the single league. If they used a separate team then the lesser one would be of little interest in comparison. therefore punters would forego the lesser option and support the top team only, making the remaining teams question their ideal of involvement. I support all forms of motor sports and would love the opportunity to see Rossi and Hamilton race every week in some form of a Super Cup. But life isn't that straight forward. These top riders wants rewards suiting of their expertise, so we are left with no other option then to go to see them once a year when this country have their yearly GP's. Probably we should look at speedway in the same light..... I actually credited you with deep feelings for the sport, but in truth, all you are thinking of, is your personal enjoyment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveLyric2 Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 My personal enjoyment as you put it would see me enjoy speedway at both 'Super Cup' and 'Championship League' level. To explain further - The 'Super Cup' team could have say 2-3 'top liners'. The other 4-5 would be eligible for the Championship League fixtures, providing a decent number of fixtures for the majority of riders. The 'top' (GP) riders are only seeking a handful of meetings at best. With the right pricing differential and balance of team strengths in each competition, I don't see why it couldn't work?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g13webb Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 Your vision of 2 -3 top liners in teams competing in the SC would push expenses through the ceiling. Lets imagine, each of these T L's wanting £3k a meeting, That's £3K x 6 = £18,000.00, plus 8 other riders earning lets say £12,000.00 totalling £30k just to cover the riders wages... Add to that all the other expenses needed to put on a meeting and the figures become very unrealistic. Working on the bear essentials you would need attendances of 3000 just to cover the costings, Probably on a one of meeting it might be possible but not on a regular basis. I cant see that happening. Lets imagine SC goes ahead, the attraction of the normal league would diminish and crowds would suffer. Probably to you that wouldn't matter because you would have your wish watching those TL at a few tracks, but the damage to the rest of the clubs would be immense. You seem to have great difficultly understanding our sport cannot compete with the foreign pricing structure employed by other countries... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveLyric2 Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 If you read my earlier posts correctly I am saying IF and only IF a handful of clubs can afford it?! There are probably only 5 or 6 clubs in a strong enough financial position to consider it - not the whole sport. As an example lets say 5 clubs in a Super League - that's 8 fixtures (4 Home/4 away) for each club using 2-3 top guys who wouldn't then be allowed (as they wouldn't want to be) to take part in the other championship-level league fixtures. The CL league could be run as one league or split into 2 regional leagues with play-offs etc using only the current lower-end Premiership riders and the current Championship riders - many of whom are the same guys anyway. There are clearly many fans (some lapsed) that want to see the top guys as there are also many fans happy to still watch Championship League standard. Best of both worlds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g13webb Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 Of course there are many fans who want to see the top guys, me included, but we don't provide the support needed to finance their inclusions. Your example suggesting 5 clubs, yet only 3 teams managed to run a viable existence last year and I have heard 2 of those were in the 2nd division. I have read all your posts, and understand your idea, but to me we are 10yrs too late. Something like this could have worked when the top guy rode here and a good TV advertising and promoting all that is good in the sport, but as with everything else we missed the boat. We have very little left to offer these top riders, We cannot afford them . so we need to build a new product, staring from the bottom, and hope in years to come we will have that support to welcome back them top riders...... ....... .. But on our terms.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, g13webb said: Of course there are many fans who want to see the top guys, me included, but we don't provide the support needed to finance their inclusions. Your example suggesting 5 clubs, yet only 3 teams managed to run a viable existence last year and I have heard 2 of those were in the 2nd division. I have read all your posts, and understand your idea, but to me we are 10yrs too late. Something like this could have worked when the top guy rode here and a good TV advertising and promoting all that is good in the sport, but as with everything else we missed the boat. We have very little left to offer these top riders, We cannot afford them . so we need to build a new product, staring from the bottom, and hope in years to come we will have that support to welcome back them top riders...... ....... .. But on our terms.... I am of the same opinion as yourself, i have said for a few years we need to plan ahead clubs need to balance the books and forget about the Sky or BT money as that will stop eventually .We need to revamp our product for me have a competitive league with the entertainment factor the major aim .The top riders are long gone now so lets hope the likes of Bewley, Jenkins, Flint,Kemp, Edwards,Thomas,Hume (ect) can be the next stars until they move on hopefully to a higher level.I have watched the NL product so speedway can still be a great night out without the stars so we need to plan ahead and have a vision to keep our sport going for the next twenty years plus. Edited January 10, 2018 by Sidney the robin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattK Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 21 hours ago, Skidder1 said: My personal enjoyment as you put it would see me enjoy speedway at both 'Super Cup' and 'Championship League' level. To explain further - The 'Super Cup' team could have say 2-3 'top liners'. The other 4-5 would be eligible for the Championship League fixtures, providing a decent number of fixtures for the majority of riders. The 'top' (GP) riders are only seeking a handful of meetings at best. With the right pricing differential and balance of team strengths in each competition, I don't see why it couldn't work?! Can you explain why so many clubs have tried to run an Elite League and a National League team and failed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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