Why 2 Leagues

[T.N.T.]

WHY DO WE HAVE TWO LEAGUES ?

We go into the 2018 season still with two leagues which is fine if both leagues were vastly different but now the only difference really is one rider and some Championship teams look almost just as strong as some Premiership teams.

 

Yes having two leagues creates more meetings for riders doubling up which years ago was just the odd rider but now most riders operate in both. But to create more meetings means seeing the same teams twice and sometimes the same team visits just weeks after their first visit. 

 

However the real reason we have a Premiership League is to give places for the few top riders that still ride here for one reason or another. In 2018 the only riders that come into this category is Jason Doyle, Jacob Thorssell and Martin Vaculik as the other number ones that have been named already have Championship places and both Vaculik and Thorssell start with averages lower than Nick Morris who is signed up in both leagues so having one league should mean those two could get places in one big league. 

 

Morris, Masters, Harris, Cook and Schlein all have Premiership averages higher than that of Nicholls and Kennett yet these two Brits are having to fight for the right to ride in the second tier in their own country wile riders like Ellis Perks, Tom Perry and others are looking to sell their bikes as they can' get team places while riders from other countries can get places on averages they achieved that is short of the average they first came in on and fill up the lower berths in the second tier while National League riders await the chance to ride. 

 

If there was one big league featuring the 8 Premiership and 11 Championship tracks it would generate 18 home and 18 away (36 matches) which is just 12 less than running two leagues (28/20) and if the season started with the forgotten Craven Shield or Young Trophy meetings using regional groups then it would be about the same.number.of meetings overall.  

 

So basically the only real reason we are still operating a Premiership is to accommodate JASON DOYLE and to satisfy the few clubs that can afford such riders and keep the prices at £18 a meeting for a product that has got weaker and weaker each season and this season doesn't even have a rule in place to ensure tracks use British riders. 

 

SO SHOULD WE HAVE GONE ONE LEAGUE ?

Well one league would have created a more varied fixture list bringing back the days when you.only had.once chance to see that visiting team and didn' want to miss it. 

 

It also creates local derbies such as Belle Vue v Sheffield or Lakeside v Rue House but most.importantly it creates spaces so plenty of places for.not only new riders but.reserve places for National League riders that need track time and revenue to make it pay.

 

So in my opinion we have again missed the chance to rebuild British Speedway at an affordable level and getting teams to be your team once more just to accommodate the World Champion 

 

VIEWS 

[waytogo28]

18 minutes ago, T.N.T. said:

So in my opinion we have again missed the chance to rebuild British Speedway at an affordable level and getting teams to be your team once more just to accommodate the World Champion 

 

Indeed we have missed the chance to achieve something that might last longer than the present bodge up. We are told that there are not enough riders to run one big league, but I do not believe that would be the case. There is just too much resistance from the BSPA to work towards a sustainable future. It's the Emperor's New Clothes syndrome, as they do not see the reality of how interest in the sport is fading.

[KrisB]

2 minutes ago, waytogo28 said:

....We are told that there are not enough riders to run one big league, but I do not believe that would be the case.....

Just run with 6-man teams if that is the case ...

[Grachan]

The second division won't want one big league because they wouldn't be able to sponge their heatleaders off the top league any more.

Why do you think it's to accommodate Jason Doyle in the top league? They've tried their best to get him out the league for the last two years running.

[MattK]

4 minutes ago, Grachan said:

The second division won't want one big league because they wouldn't be able to sponge their heatleaders off the top league any more.

That's an interesting point. If there was only one league where would the ex-Championship teams get their heatleaders from, as presumable the top riders would all ride for ex-Premiership clubs who would pay better (ex-Permiership) wages?

I simply cannot see why any of the Championship clubs would agree to one big league. Now there is no TV money there is nothing to tempt them into to join up with the Premiership.

[1 valve]

2 hours ago, T.N.T. said:

If there was one big league featuring the 8 Premiership and 11 Championship tracks it would generate 18 home and 18 away (36 matches) which is just 12 less than running two leagues (28/20) and if the season started with the forgotten Craven Shield or Young Trophy EWS 

On the basis that doubling up would not be allowed with the majority of Premier league riders also currently due to ride for Championship clubs there will for 2018 be approximately 85ish riders available to choose from. thefore if you had 7 man team this would provide 12 teams and if you had 6 man teams you would have 14 teams.

whilst both fall short of the 17 you propose there are two other significant aspects to consider.

1. at any one time there are circa 10% of riders unavailable through one reason or another (mostly injury) so reality is there would be a lot of guest riders required.

2. Safety would also be a greater issue as there is a massive skill difference between say the top 25% of the Premier league riders and the lower 25% of the Championship riders. I recall Jason Doyle a few seasons back voicing his concerns in this regard and this point should not be readily ignored.

That said. As riders do improve and the reliance of doubling up is reduced by the emergence of new additional riders (Hopefully) then maybe the road which the BSPA have currently chosen to take in creating two leagues "close to one another" may produce the opportunity to expand into a larger single top tier league.

This is a case of evolution rather than revolution and requires time as measured by a calendar rather than a watch before it can successfully come to fruition.

Edited January 5, 2018 by 1 valve

[dontforgetthefueltapsbruv]

56 minutes ago, Grachan said:

The second division won't want one big league because they wouldn't be able to sponge their heatleaders off the top league any more.

Why do you think it's to accommodate Jason Doyle in the top league? They've tried their best to get him out the league for the last two years running.

One big league would have to be at a level below current Championship level somewhere around 39 points -equivalent of 2018 Premiership standard of 30 points

That would automatically share out heatleaders......

[Grachan]

6 minutes ago, dontforgetthefueltapsbruv said:

One big league would have to be at a level below current Championship level somewhere around 39 points -equivalent of 2018 Premiership standard of 30 points

That would automatically share out heatleaders......

 

And even out support levels to somewhere between the Championship and the National League. Why is that always seen as the answer?

[dontforgetthefueltapsbruv]

1 minute ago, Grachan said:

 

And even out support levels to somewhere between the Championship and the National League. Why is that always seen as the answer?

Find 30 or so extra heat leader quality riders that will ride in the UK for £50 a point and you could have something close to the current Premiership standard

Which do you think is most feasible?

Alternatively its answers the OP as to why 2 leagues

[MattK]

10 minutes ago, Grachan said:

 

And even out support levels to somewhere between the Championship and the National League. Why is that always seen as the answer?

Because dumbing down the quality has always worked so well in the past?

[dontforgetthefueltapsbruv]

17 minutes ago, MattK said:

Because dumbing down the quality has always worked so well in the past?

Exactly so 1 big league isnt tge answer to that

Infact a smaller 5/6 team top league could be the way firward for that but would be a huge financial risk that none would likely be willing/able to commit too

[T.N.T.]

2 hours ago, Grachan said:

The second division won't want one big league because they wouldn't be able to sponge their heatleaders off the top league any more.

Why do you think it's to accommodate Jason Doyle in the top league? They've tried their best to get him out the league for the last two years running.

 

Quite a few of the riders like Masters Howarth Lawson etc that would be the top riders in one league are owned by Championship teams and with a limit set right the level would be like the current Championship so affordable for Berwick Redcar Workington etc 

 

 

2 hours ago, MattK said:

That's an interesting point. If there was only one league where would the ex-Championship teams get their heatleaders from, as presumable the top riders would all ride for ex-Premiership clubs who would pay better (ex-Permiership) wages?

I simply cannot see why any of the Championship clubs would agree to one big league. Now there is no TV money there is nothing to tempt them into to join up with the Premiership.

 

See above.

Why does everyone think the little clubs would have to come up in strength when it' the bigger tracks coming down

 

2 hours ago, 1 valve said:

On the basis that doubling up would not be allowed with the majority of Premier league riders also currently due to ride for Championship clubs there will for 2018 be approximately 85ish riders available to choose from. thefore if you had 7 man team this would provide 12 teams and if you had 6 man teams you would have 14 teams.

whilst both fall short of the 17 you propose there are two other significant aspects to consider.

1. at any one time there are circa 10% of riders unavailable through one reason or another (mostly injury) so reality is there would be a lot of guest riders required.

2. Safety would also be a greater issue as there is a massive skill difference between say the top 25% of the Premier league riders and the lower 25% of the Championship riders. I recall Jason Doyle a few seasons back voicing his concerns in this regard and this point should not be readily ignored.

That said. As riders do improve and the reliance of doubling up is reduced by the emergence of new additional riders (Hopefully) then maybe the road which the BSPA have currently chosen to take in creating two leagues "close to one another" may produce the opportunity to expand into a larger single top tier league.

This is a case of evolution rather than revolution and requires time as measured by a calendar rather than a watch before it can successfully come to fruition.

 

Firstly you promote the National League riders that need track time and revenue to be reserves.

This creates more riders coming through 

 

2 The level would be as it is for safety as they would be riding against riders they already are facing and without the pressure of having to meet the big guns.

 

The leagues have been coming closer and closer and personally I think it should have been one big league in 2017 but as it is now they have to do it in 2018 to create a better selling product. 

 

 

1 hour ago, dontforgetthefueltapsbruv said:

One big league would have to be at a level below current Championship level somewhere around 39 points -equivalent of 2018 Premiership standard of 30 points

That would automatically share out heatleaders......

 

CORRECT

 

1 hour ago, dontforgetthefueltapsbruv said:

Find 30 or so extra heat leader quality riders that will ride in the UK for £50 a point and you could have something close to the current Premiership standard

Which do you think is most feasible?

Alternatively its answers the OP as to why 2 leagues

 

No find 30 National League or newcomers that would ride for £50 a point and you have the level you need and is affordable 

 

 

It has to be a product that ALL tracks can afford to run and while the big tracks may have better resources it will be more level but most importantly a product that can be made affordable at the turnstiles to not just keep the ever decreasing die hard but also attract new fans, firms and families to come regularly 

[MattK]

16 minutes ago, T.N.T. said:

Quite a few of the riders like Masters Howarth Lawson etc that would be the top riders in one league are owned by Championship teams and with a limit set right the level would be like the current Championship so affordable for Berwick Redcar Workington etc 

See above.

Why does everyone think the little clubs would have to come up in strength when it' the bigger tracks coming down

You're overlooking the fact that Premiership teams have the financial clout to sign these riders, regardless of who "owns" them.

I ask again though, with no TV money to be shared and losing their "subsidised" heatleaders, what is in this for Championship teams?

[Grachan]

35 minutes ago, T.N.T. said:

 

Quite a few of the riders like Masters Howarth Lawson etc that would be the top riders in one league are owned by Championship teams and with a limit set right the level would be like the current Championship so affordable for Berwick Redcar Workington etc 

 

 

 

See above.

Why does everyone think the little clubs would have to come up in strength when it' the bigger tracks coming down

 

 

Firstly you promote the National League riders that need track time and revenue to be reserves.

This creates more riders coming through 

 

2 The level would be as it is for safety as they would be riding against riders they already are facing and without the pressure of having to meet the big guns.

 

The leagues have been coming closer and closer and personally I think it should have been one big league in 2017 but as it is now they have to do it in 2018 to create a better selling product. 

 

 

 

CORRECT

 

 

No find 30 National League or newcomers that would ride for £50 a point and you have the level you need and is affordable 

 

 

It has to be a product that ALL tracks can afford to run and while the big tracks may have better resources it will be more level but most importantly a product that can be made affordable at the turnstiles to not just keep the ever decreasing die hard but also attract new fans, firms and families to come regularly 

One league at the strenth you advocate is, in terms of making the sport popular, rubbish.

In terms of the finances available, it may be what the clubs want. From a supporter pount of view - merely in terms of the product and the appeal - it's crap.

It seems, every year, that the best thing they can think of is come up with something to stuff Jason Doyle, who is showing commendable loyalty to this country at the moment.

There is a certain section who seem intent on making the sport weaker every year until it snuffs itself out. I am not one of them. I miss when teams had the best riders, regardless of how feasible it is.

[RobMcCaffery]

It's fascinating to see the cynicism of Premiership fans here, and quite simply breathtaking arrogance that they are superior beings whose needs must be met. 

The second division was shafted by such arrogance in the nineties and you can understand a certain wariness now.

In some ways you can draw parallels with the National League/Provincial League in the sixties when the dying NL acted as if it had the right to force Wolverhampton to join them. Their arrogance failed and the merged league that brought so much success was forged on the second tier's terms. The same is needed today  but our 'elite' promoters and fans won't accept that, crying 'watered down' and demanding everyone spend money they haven't got like they do.

A merger will only come after a genuine crisis. We're not quite there yet. Perhaps an acceptance that we're all just one small sport fighting for survival might be a starting point, and an understanding that just because your team is in the top division it doesn't make the management and fans some superior race.....

 

 

[hawks 1975]

Surely with the lack of any TV money, the days of being able to afford the GP riders is upon us, and must be faced up to.

Because the top riders kept moaning about 'too many meetings', we now have a top flight league that can only offer 14 home meetings in a speedway season that starts in March/April and in theory goes on until October. Now I believe we have a Championship that is offering only 10 home league meetings! How does that square with a season of at least 29 weeks?

Do the fans want alternate week home meetings? Many are drifting away, having lost the habit. The majority of riders need more meetings (hence doubling up). How many meetings do the majority of promoters want to make their business viable? How do you please riders, fans and promoters alike?

2019 must be the season when when the powers that be allow one big league, initially split into two regional leagues, ( helping to reduce costs) with the top 4 from each racing off for the title, and the remainder racing in a supplementary competition/cup, thereby ensuring  that each club races around 20 home meeting. The second half of the season would see north v south matches. It may be best to go with 6 rider teams initially, but I believe that would soon revert back as the new young crop of riders develop.

It might even be possible to then add a genuine knock out Cup competition, run on the same lines as the FA Cup - fixed dates for each round, preliminary rounds perhaps for the National league clubs with the  top 2 then being drawn at home v the top boys and the chance of a giant killing even!

That would give most riders enough meetings - without the dreaded doubling up; allow the fans to have more regular, varied, meaningful meetings and hopefully give the promoters a more attractive offering. 

[stevebrum]

Thank god we have 3 leagues, as it should be.

The indications are that more top boys would have ridden here this season without the cost cutting 1 8 or over.

It's more vital now than ever to try and get a stronger top flight for next season or possibly allow riders in once the season starts.

The genuine excitement over 2 day racing that the top boys have been asking for quickly faded when it was done purely as a cost cutting exercise with the thought of no TV money coming in. 

Hopefully a way can be found for next season to get some more of the top boys over that will be essential to have a top flight league.

The sport will be in a much worse place if they amalgamate the leagues,  clubs will be down to the bare bones of fans as yet more drift away from the weakest option possible. 

Just my opinion of course. 

[INCOGNITO]

Everyone would love to see a last heat decider with four top class riders battling it out but fans and promoters have to see what the reality is and the fact is British Speedway CANT afford to try and use the big earners. 

Crowds are vastly down in most cases so the revenue has gone and with the lucrative TV deal money now all dried up, clubs are now getting towards a six figure sum less than a decade ago.

With riders we want to see race here earning wages in excess of £3,000 a night at least, it takes the first 200 (300) through the turnstiles just to clear that issue and you still have the rest to pay plus expenses and running costs. However the idea of one big league at a lower level would considerably lower the wage bill and give tracks much more variety to promote on a more weekly basis.

Current Championship tracks don't want to move up or be forced to sign stronger riders, but if they carry on as they are or at a slightly lower level, they would get more meetings and matches against local rivals that are currently in the other division. 

So while it's fine saying we want to see the big names back in Britain, these fans have to see the facts that they have outgrown this country and working abroad is the only way to make serious money and chase the big rewards and sponsors. 

Fixed race nights were bought in to stop fixture clashes and not entice the big earners back but having these two race nights can be seen as some as a possible way of getting good track time like Vaculik has and maybe even another possibly on his way to make a return to Britain.

Bit the future of British Speedway has to be with British riders getting chances to develop and more riders given team places and at a level that the low turn out of fans and no TV deal can afford to give this country a marketable product for everyone. 

 

One Big League has to be the way forward soon before the lights go out 

[g13webb]

9 hours ago, INCOGNITO said:

Everyone would love to see a last heat decider with four top class riders battling it out but fans and promoters have to see what the reality is and the fact is British Speedway CANT afford to try and use the big earners. 

Crowds are vastly down in most cases so the revenue has gone and with the lucrative TV deal money now all dried up, clubs are now getting towards a six figure sum less than a decade ago.

With riders we want to see race here earning wages in excess of £3,000 a night at least, it takes the first 200 (300) through the turnstiles just to clear that issue and you still have the rest to pay plus expenses and running costs. However the idea of one big league at a lower level would considerably lower the wage bill and give tracks much more variety to promote on a more weekly basis.

Current Championship tracks don't want to move up or be forced to sign stronger riders, but if they carry on as they are or at a slightly lower level, they would get more meetings and matches against local rivals that are currently in the other division. 

So while it's fine saying we want to see the big names back in Britain, these fans have to see the facts that they have outgrown this country and working abroad is the only way to make serious money and chase the big rewards and sponsors. 

Fixed race nights were bought in to stop fixture clashes and not entice the big earners back but having these two race nights can be seen as some as a possible way of getting good track time like Vaculik has and maybe even another possibly on his way to make a return to Britain.

Bit the future of British Speedway has to be with British riders getting chances to develop and more riders given team places and at a level that the low turn out of fans and no TV deal can afford to give this country a marketable product for everyone. 

 

One Big League has to be the way forward soon before the lights go out 

My sentiment exactly.   its not about, not wanting to see the top riders, its about the affordability of it all.  The sport does not generate the support to continue the present ways..  The sooner the Powers and the Fans realise this then, then decisions can be initiated to create a firmer footing of the sport.    

[SteveLyric2]

Its true that the sport as a whole cannot afford the top boys BUT there is a handful of clubs who could afford some of them so why not go for one big league (of approx. Championship level) and allow the handful of clubs to also run a 'Super League' set up if they can afford it and reckon they can attract the crowds?

The likes of Wolves, Poole, Rye House, Glasgow, Sheffield etc are backed by a combination of successful businesses and sponsorship and could easily operate a top league on a set night and also run a Championship-level team in the bigger one league?

 

It could be the best of both worlds.