Who is the Greatest ?

[Grachan]

2 hours ago, E I Addio said:

What exactly was Mauger doing that Ronnie Moore wasn't doing in principle 10 years earlier and or that Tommy Price wasn't doing before Moore even arrived here ? 

 

Winning 3 consecutive World titles and finishing on the rostrum 8 years running, for starters.

It's pretty well documented that he brought a new level of professionalism to the sport. Those 3 titles show, to me, that for a few years everyone was playing catch up.

I don't know much about the pre-Mauger years, but it is the comment from Ove Fundin that tells the story.

I reckon he would have done just that in whatever earlier era you put him in.

As for what exactly he was doing, I can't help with I'm afraid. Best ask the riders who had to do the same to try and keep up with him.

[steve roberts]

3 hours ago, Gavan said:

To this day i still cant believe the conservative way Nielsen rode in the run off against Rickardsson in the 1994 run off. 

It's yonks since I've seen that race but what I remember is that Hans basically took the wrong line down the back (?) straight after exiting the bend and before he had a chance to correct himself Rickardsson zipped thru'.

[E I Addio]

2 hours ago, Grachan said:

 

Winning 3 consecutive World titles and finishing on the rostrum 8 years running, for starters.

It's pretty well documented that he brought a new level of professionalism to the sport. Those 3 titles show, to me, that for a few years everyone was playing catch up.

I don't know much about the pre-Mauger years, but it is the comment from Ove Fundin that tells the story.

I reckon he would have done just that in whatever earlier era you put him in.

As for what exactly he was doing, I can't help with I'm afraid. Best ask the riders who had to do the same to try and keep up with him.

 

2 hours ago, Grachan said:

 

Finishing on the rostrum in 8 consecutive World Finals does not, of itself prove outstanding professionalism . Fundin had 12 or. 13 consecutive rostrum finishes and far more than Mauger  in total but  that is is not proof of greater professionalism.

Mauger didn't suddenly come along and drag a rough and ready sport out of the dark ages. He was part of an ongoing cycle of development. What Mauger did was to take ideas that were already developing and take them a stage futher, just as others took Maugers ideas and developed them further. 

Mauger was the best rider of his generation, assuming you class Briggs , Fundin and Moore in an earlier generation, and the top Danes in a later generation. I  dont think you can put it more precisely than that.

[mickthemuppet]

42 minutes ago, E I Addio said:

oT

Finishing on the rostrum in 8 consecutive World Finals does not, of itself prove outstanding professionalism . Fundin had 12 or. 13 consecutive rostrum finishes and far more than Mauger  in total but  that is is not proof of greater professionalism.

Mauger didn't suddenly come along and drag a rough and ready sport out of the dark ages. He was part of an ongoing cycle of development. What Mauger did was to take ideas that were already developing and take them a stage futher, just as others took Maugers ideas and developed them further. 

Mauger was the best rider of his generation, assuming you class Briggs , Fundin and Moore in an earlier generation, and the top Danes in a later generation. I  dont think you can put it more precisely than that.

To me who has probably seen more Speedway riders than anybody else Ivan Mauger was the ultimate professional. He was simply great and all the other riders were playing catch up against him. That's why he was voted the Speedway rider of the millennium.  

[HenryW]

11 hours ago, Gavan said:

To this day i still cant believe the conservative way Nielsen rode in the run off against Rickardsson in the 1994 run off. 

I know it's off topic, but I'm interested to understand what you mean by that...Feel free to PM me if you don't want to carry on the chat on this thread.

[norbold]

20 hours ago, Grachan said:

So, basically, only riders from Mauger onwards can really be considered for the greatest of all time as he upped the standard from what had gone before.

I'm not sure it works like that, Grachan. You could say that Rickardsson took Mauger's high standards of professionalism to an even higher level. Would that mean that only riders since Rickardsson's day can be called the greatest ever? 

You have to look at the conditions in the era of each of the riders and what marks them out during that era. I think the idea that putting a great rider from any era into another era, with all that goes with that era, and they would still rise to the top is almost a truism. Frank Arthur and Vic Huxley were probably the first of the "greats", but they were leg trailers, so if they came back today riding exactly as they did then (and on the machinery they had then) and rode against the likes of Jason Doyle and Greg Hancock, they'd stand no chance. But that's not how you have to make comparisons between eras.

Edited December 24, 2017 by norbold

[Sidney the robin]

Was Mauger lucky in the 1972  World Final.? but unlucky in the 1973 year ? a hard one really still hard to believe he let that Final slip away.I felt 1979 was a year he was quite fortunate to win it looking back Lee could of won the final that year.1972 was a terrible year for Briggs that crash finished his career really as a real championship contender even though he still rode at a high level.I still  believe he could of won  that Final that moment was probably my worst moment in speedway did Briggo ever make up with Bernie.? who knows.

[Gavan]

On 12/24/2017 at 1:22 AM, HenryW said:

I know it's off topic, but I'm interested to understand what you mean by that...Feel free to PM me if you don't want to carry on the chat on this thread.

I was there that day and Nielsen went into the third bend pretty much mid track which gave Tony the chance to move out wide and then coming out of the 4th bend able to swoop up the inside as Hans was basically just lost in mid track.

Hans in my mind played it safe round turns 3 and 4 and left himself open to a move like Rickardsson made. Nothing against Hans at all just feel in that race he didnt ride the race properly

[Midland Red]

2 hours ago, adonis said:

you have listed plechanov  who is a non world champion as one of you top 5 ,yet  the man you chooses as an avatar ,who many regard as one of thelll time Non world title greats you leave off your list ,, nowt as queer as folk 

Plechanov's World Final record is superior to Nigel's - which I think answers your point

[PHILIPRISING]

On 24/12/2017 at 9:54 AM, Sidney the robin said:

Was Mauger lucky in the 1972  World Final.? but unlucky in the 1973 year ? a hard one really still hard to believe he let that Final slip away.I felt 1979 was a year he was quite fortunate to win it looking back Lee could of won the final that year.1972 was a terrible year for Briggs that crash finished his career really as a real championship contender even though he still rode at a high level.I still  believe he could of won  that Final that moment was probably my worst moment in speedway did Briggo ever make up with Bernie.? who knows.

NO!!!!

[Terry]

On ‎24‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 9:54 AM, Sidney the robin said:

Was Mauger lucky in the 1972  World Final.? but unlucky in the 1973 year ? a hard one really still hard to believe he let that Final slip away.I felt 1979 was a year he was quite fortunate to win it looking back Lee could of won the final that year.1972 was a terrible year for Briggs that crash finished his career really as a real championship contender even though he still rode at a high level.I still  believe he could of won  that Final that moment was probably my worst moment in speedway did Briggo ever make up with Bernie.? who knows.

Strange thing to say considering he scored two points less than Zenon Plech!

[Sidney the robin]

13 hours ago, Terry said:

Strange thing to say considering he scored two points less than Zenon Plech!

The reasoning behind that was that Lee was certainly one of the best if  not the best rider of the 79 season.Also he beat Mauger and sat on 8 pts at the interval then ran a last against Jessup,Moran,Olsen then finally winning his last ride.In a way similar to his 83 Norden effort ran a last in one race as for Plech his best chance for me was in 1973.

[Terry]

1 hour ago, Sidney the robin said:

The reasoning behind that was that Lee was certainly one of the best if  not the best rider of the 79 season.Also he beat Mauger and sat on 8 pts at the interval then ran a last against Jessup,Moran,Olsen then finally winning his last ride.In a way similar to his 83 Norden effort ran a last in one race as for Plech his best chance for me was in 1973.

I can't argue about Lee being the best that year. I remember him winning the Commonwealth and Inter-Continental finals at White City.

Even as an 11 year old I remember screaming at the tv for Plechy to get past Moran, but Kelly stood his ground.

I reckon Zenon would have beaten Ivan in the run-off - but I am a bit biased!

 

 

 

[Sidney the robin]

37 minutes ago, Terry said:

I can't argue about Lee being the best that year. I remember him winning the Commonwealth and Inter-Continental finals at White City.

Even as an 11 year old I remember screaming at the tv for Plechy to get past Moran, but Kelly stood his ground.

I reckon Zenon would have beaten Ivan in the run-off - but I am a bit biased!

 

 

 

If Zenon had of had a real good run of BL action everyear there seemed to be uncertainty with the Poles he could of been a WC no doubt about that.I did see Zenon ride a few times and he was exciting a real entertainer  my favourite ever Pole after Gollob.

[Terry]

22 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

If Zenon had of had a real good run of BL action everyear there seemed to be uncertainty with the Poles he could of been a WC no doubt about that.I did see Zenon ride a few times and he was exciting a real entertainer  my favourite ever Pole after Gollob.

When Zenon rejoined the Hawks midway through the 79 season to replace the sadly departed Vic Harding he was amazing to watch. He broke the track record almost every week, and I remember he beat Olsen from the back twice one night..which took some doing.

As you say there was always a lot of uncertainty at the start of each season, with Len Silver having a constant battle with Zenon's Polish club to release him.

Obviously Gollob is Poland's greatest ever rider, but Plechy will always be my favourite!

[Sidney the robin]

58 minutes ago, Terry said:

When Zenon rejoined the Hawks midway through the 79 season to replace the sadly departed Vic Harding he was amazing to watch. He broke the track record almost every week, and I remember he beat Olsen from the back twice one night..which took some doing.

As you say there was always a lot of uncertainty at the start of each season, with Len Silver having a constant battle with Zenon's Polish club to release him.

Obviously Gollob is Poland's greatest ever rider, but Plechy will always be my favourite!

Plech there has to be an arguement that he was a better speedway rider than Muller even though we all know Muller was a class act.Did Plech get the same amount of behind the scenes practice  laps as Muller did in 83??I can always remember Ivan saying that Jerzy had as much of a chance of winning in 73 as Zenon Jerzy did get away with some terrible rollers that day though.

[OveFundinFan]

2 hours ago, Sidney the robin said:

Plech there has to be an arguement that he was a better speedway rider than Muller even though we all know Muller was a class act.Did Plech get the same amount of behind the scenes practice  laps as Muller did in 83??I can always remember Ivan saying that Jerzy had as much of a chance of winning in 73 as Zenon Jerzy did get away with some terrible rollers that day though.

but it seems some supporters dont mind rollers as long as they dont bust the tapes.

[Sidney the robin]

53 minutes ago, OveFundinFan said:

but it seems some supporters dont mind rollers as long as they dont bust the tapes.

 I actually think Ove the old rule was better ok riders did take a  chance roll the tapes  and if they went through the tapes they   got excluded.Now it is a double whammy you touch them you are out leaving the public to get ripped off for me break them you are excluded if not let it go often if you take chances you will be punished in the long run .

 

[OveFundinFan]

On the other hand, Sidney, the public got robbed by someone streaking away into the lead and potentially the wrong rider winning and also being deprived of a better race.  The run off between Ivan M and Jerzy S being one that immediately springs to mind.

[steve roberts]

4 minutes ago, OveFundinFan said:

On the other hand, Sidney, the public got robbed by someone streaking away into the lead and potentially the wrong rider winning and also being deprived of a better race.  The run off between Ivan M and Jerzy S being one that immediately springs to mind.

...however it could have gone down as one of the best if Ivan hadn't made a fundamental error and clipped Jerzy's rear wheel. He would have past him with ease but lost it due to a miscalculation but that's racing and in hindsight has left us with memories of what, to me anyway, was a World Final full of drama and twists.