f-s-p Posted December 9, 2017 Report Share Posted December 9, 2017 Who is the plonker who nominated Timo Lahti??? :-pWho? Me??? For the title question, cant really see how it can be anyone else than Niemi really. Most national titles (i think but wont check), best achievement in World finals and more than decent career in the leagues of his era. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 9, 2017 Report Share Posted December 9, 2017 (edited) As I couldn't see an existing thread, I thought I would begin one, to allow anyone to discuss the merits of Finnish riders over the years. Due consideration can be given to achievements not only in speedway but also long-track racing. Best Finnish riders I have seen: Antti Pajari Timo Laine I responded in context to the OP which sought a discussion on the merits of Finnish riders over the years rather than who was the best Finnish rider. My nominations were Antti Pahari - who I saw as a Coventry rider in 1959, and Timo Laine who I saw in Holland when he had successes in both the 1959 and 1962 'Golden Helmet' series. I emphasised this as being the best Finnish riders I had seen not nominate them as being THE BEST Finnish riders. I judged them as mentioned - as lower order Finish riders were also involved in both the Dutch 'Golden Helmet' series. So far as memory serves me I do not recall ever watching any of the other Finish riders wo have been mentioned by other posters on this thread. After 1962, I saw very few speedway meetings until the Wimbledon revival between 2002--2005. Actually, falcace, I have to say I am of an age where Antti Pajari and Timo Laine are not obscure to me. They were both good riders and I would probably count them in Finland's top five, though I agree Kai Niemi would be my choice as no.1. I don't want to rub it in, but I am a few years younger than you, norbold! Having said that, the pair are not obscure to me either. In fact, as a kid, I remember my parents telling me about Antti Pajari! Although both were better on the long-tracks, I think Timo Laine was the better of the two, Pajari being a little on the hairy side. Steve My view now is that the above comments by nor bold and chunky give some justification to my original opinion in regard to Laine and Pahari. It was refreshing to see that both had not jumped on the 'continuing BSF bandwagon' of making a comment by gustix look stupid. But then again, both IMO are more respected commentators on speedway THAN SOME who have attempted to discredit my view - maybe these Posters should have read my first comment more carefully. BTW - after reading all Posts in this thread I tend to agree with norbold's opinion in regard to the top five Finnish riders. Edited December 10, 2017 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted December 9, 2017 Report Share Posted December 9, 2017 I think if we take long track achievements into account,then there really is only 1 rider who stands out and that is Joonas.Mikko might have been the most talented,but his reluctance to leave Finland must hinder his reputation imo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moomin man 76 Posted December 9, 2017 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2017 When I started the thread, I hoped that the thread would allow all who wanted to contribute the opportunity to discuss the merits of Finnish riders over the years. From the comments posted so far, it is interesting to see the range of names mentioned, from the earlier Pajari and Laine era, to the likes of Teromaa, and Niemi, as well as the most recent period of Laukkanen and Kylmakorpi. I was also intending the conversation to include consideration of both speedway and longtrack achievements, so it is good to see both aspects of the sport taken into consideration. Due to age, I never had the opportunity to see the earliest generation of Finnish riders and Ila Teromaa only just fits into my radar with his season at Cradley Heath in my early childhood. So from those that I have had the pleasure to see Kai Niemi must rank highest on speedway, even if some would believe that he could have achieved more if fully committed, followed by Kaj Laukkanen and Joonas Kylmakorpi (who would clearly rank the highest on longtrack). Perhaps I have been a little surprised to see that no one has referred to Kalevi Lahtinen, who must have been a decent rider to have scored 6pts in the Nordic-British Final at Sheffield in 1966 (on a track he had presumably never seen before). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted December 9, 2017 Report Share Posted December 9, 2017 (edited) When I started the thread, I hoped that the thread would allow all who wanted to contribute the opportunity to discuss the merits of Finnish riders over the years. From the comments posted so far, it is interesting to see the range of names mentioned, from the earlier Pajari and Laine era, to the likes of Teromaa, and Niemi, as well as the most recent period of Laukkanen and Kylmakorpi. I was also intending the conversation to include consideration of both speedway and longtrack achievements, so it is good to see both aspects of the sport taken into consideration. Due to age, I never had the opportunity to see the earliest generation of Finnish riders and Ila Teromaa only just fits into my radar with his season at Cradley Heath in my early childhood. So from those that I have had the pleasure to see Kai Niemi must rank highest on speedway, even if some would believe that he could have achieved more if fully committed, followed by Kaj Laukkanen and Joonas Kylmakorpi (who would clearly rank the highest on longtrack). Perhaps I have been a little surprised to see that no one has referred to Kalevi Lahtinen, who must have been a decent rider to have scored 6pts in the Nordic-British Final at Sheffield in 1966 (on a track he had presumably never seen before). ...I know that John Berry has been quoted as saying that British fans often never saw the best of Kai in that his exploits on the continent often excelled. I did raise this issue with John many years ago having not totally agreed with his assessment which I thought a tad unfair but in hindsight I now know where John was coming from. Edited December 9, 2017 by steve roberts 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatface Posted December 10, 2017 Report Share Posted December 10, 2017 I responded in context to the OP which sought a discussion on the merits of Finnish riders over the years rather than who was the best Finnish rider. My nominations were Antti Pahari - who I saw as a Coventry rider in 1959, and Timo Laine who I saw in Holland when he had successes in both the 1959 and 1962 'Golden Helmet' series. I emphasised this as being the best Finnish riders I had seen not nominate them as being THE BEST Finnish riders. I judged them as mentioned - as lower order Finish riders were also involved in both the Dutch 'Golden Helmet' series. So far as memory serves me I do not recall ever watching any of the other Finish riders wo have been mentioned by other posters on this thread. After 1962, I saw very few speedway meetings until the Wimbledon revival between 2002--2005. My view now is that the above comments by nor bold and chunky give some justification to my original opinion in regard to Laine and Pahari. It was refreshing to see that both had not jumped on the 'continuing BSF bandwagon' of making a comment by gustix look stupid. But then again, both IMO are more respected commentators on speedway THAN SOME who have attempted to discredit my view - maybe these Posters would have read my first comment more carefully. BTW - after reading all Posts in this thread I tend to agree with norbold's opinion in regard to the top five Finnish riders. Sorry to have riled you. I just couldn't resist - unfortunately you do make a rod for your own back at times. I simply cannot go beyond Kai Niemi on this, he's head and shoulders above the rest. Some might be able to make a spirited case for Ila Teromaa, but that's it. Furthermore, I cannot buy into long-track achievements being given equal consideration to speedway achievements. In whatever guise, the World Speedway Championship is the top priority for every participant, with the possible historical exception of a handful of West Germans. You cannot say - and never have been able to say - that the WLT is afforded the same prestige. The WLT's peak years were in the mid 70s to mid 80s when Mauger, Michanek, Olsen, Collins, Lee, Gundersen all gave the event a real go (even then Niemi was a regular finallist amongst truly stiff competition). Why? Because there was money to be made by racing on the German long-track and grass-track scene on Sundays and being a top long-tracker meant big bucks - and the welcome embrace of a Bavarian bosom - let's not pretend otherwise Once the doors opened to racing league speedway in Sweden and Poland, the WLT ceased to be a credible global competition featuring the world's top riders. Suddenly, Kelvin Tatum began winning it. Had he become a better rider? Nope, he was well past his peak, but the quality of competition had been seriously watered down. Long track is to Speedway what Rugby Sevens is to Rugby, an entertaining spectacle, but not the real deal. Anyway, best Italian anyone? I'm going for Giuseppe Marzotto 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f-s-p Posted December 10, 2017 Report Share Posted December 10, 2017 Sorry to have riled you. I just couldn't resist - unfortunately you do make a rod for your own back at times. I simply cannot go beyond Kai Niemi on this, he's head and shoulders above the rest. Some might be able to make a spirited case for Ila Teromaa, but that's it. Furthermore, I cannot buy into long-track achievements being given equal consideration to speedway achievements. In whatever guise, the World Speedway Championship is the top priority for every participant, with the possible historical exception of a handful of West Germans. You cannot say - and never have been able to say - that the WLT is afforded the same prestige. The WLT's peak years were in the mid 70s to mid 80s when Mauger, Michanek, Olsen, Collins, Lee, Gundersen all gave the event a real go (even then Niemi was a regular finallist amongst truly stiff competition). Why? Because there was money to be made by racing on the German long-track and grass-track scene on Sundays and being a top long-tracker meant big bucks - and the welcome embrace of a Bavarian bosom - let's not pretend otherwise Once the doors opened to racing league speedway in Sweden and Poland, the WLT ceased to be a credible global competition featuring the world's top riders. Suddenly, Kelvin Tatum began winning it. Had he become a better rider? Nope, he was well past his peak, but the quality of competition had been seriously watered down. Long track is to Speedway what Rugby Sevens is to Rugby, an entertaining spectacle, but not the real deal. Anyway, best Italian anyone? I'm going for Giuseppe Marzotto I could have written that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted December 10, 2017 Report Share Posted December 10, 2017 I could have written that... Not while you have a hole in yer ass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Split Posted December 10, 2017 Report Share Posted December 10, 2017 (edited) The first year the Internationale was held (1961),qualifying rounds took place and some riders who were not riding for National League teams in Britain were invited over. I saw the round at New Cross and I remember that Timo Laine took part but only scored two points. I seem to recall that he was riding on borrowed equipment but I might be wrong. Edited December 10, 2017 by Split Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted December 10, 2017 Report Share Posted December 10, 2017 (edited) If we compare them at least in the British League,as for the earlier riders we don't have Polish comparisons(not sure if they rode in Sweden?) We have Teromaa 1975..Leicester..34..132..154..41..5.911976..Leicester..34..144..266..17..7.86..1F1977..Leicester..29..135..281..20..8.921978..Leicester..37..159..324..22..8.70..4F..1P1979..Leicester..20..79..115..9..6.281979..Cradley..2..8..11..2..6.501980..Cradley..33..130..142..31..5.32..1P world finalist 1978 Niemi 1976..White City..29..99..94..26..4.851977..White City..39..164..234..47..6.851978..White City..34..137..227.5..18..7.171979..Eastbourne..34..164..348..11..8.76..4F..1P1980..Eastbourne..23..113..228..8..8.35..2F1981..Eastbourne..1..5..6..1..5.601981..Birmingham..48..222..367..46..7.44..1P1982..Wimbledon..42..185..329..43..8.04..2F..2P1983..Wimbledon..44..181..320..27..7.67..1F..1P1984..Ipswich..50..201..371..30..7.98..3F..1P1985..Ipswich..39..161..201..46..6.141986..Swindon..23..98..203..4..8.45..1F1986..Ipswich..16..67..130..4..8.001987..Ipswich..45..186..328..26..7.611988..Ipswich..38..180..278..31..6.871989..Coventry..30..105..104..19..4.691991..Long Eaton..12..48..73..7..6.67 world finalist 80,82,84,85 Kylmäkorpi 2001..Eastbourne..38..158..185..28..5.39..1P2002..Ipswich..30..122..131..20..4.952003..Arena Essex..35..178..403..28..9.69..1F..2P2003..Eastbourne..40..182..303..32..7.36..2F2004..Eastbourne..30..127..187..36..7.02..1P2005..Coventry..14..70..111..15..7.20..1F2005..Peterborough..12..56..86..15..7.212006..Arena Essex..32..158..299..20..8.08..1P2007..Lakeside..21..100..153..30..7.322008..Lakeside..27..123..181..42..7.252009..Lakeside..29..125..189..23..6.78..1P2010..Eastbourne..34..165..286..26..7.56..1P2011..Eastbourne..34..158..288..25..7.92..1F..2P2012..Eastbourne..14..65..117..13..8.002013..Peterborough..12..52..91..8..7.62..1P2014..Eastbourne..30..130..201..14..6.62..1P2015..Coventry..24..101..171..17..7.45..1F2016..Wolves..15..66..108..12..7.27 GP wildcard 4 times? http://wwosbackup.proboards.com/thread/1566/joonas-kylmakorpi I would say Joonas is better without doubt than Teromaa and comparable if not better than Niemi given he rode in a tougher environment as I have shown a few times when you compare say the number of over 10+ averages in 1964 to the number in a larger league in 1965.The larger the league the easier it is to get a higher average.So Joonas has done very well,especially seeing as he often had an injury.So as far as I am concerned there is no way Niemi is head and shoulders above the rest and no way Teromaa is easily the next best.Not on these stats.I'd also say there is not much chance that Kai would have made 4 GP series I was actually a bit surprised,because I thought Niemi would be a good bit better than Joonas at speedway,but to me it doesn't pan out like that Edited December 10, 2017 by iris123 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 10, 2017 Report Share Posted December 10, 2017 The first year the Internationale was held (1961),qualifying rounds took place and some riders who were not riding for National League teams in Britain were invited over. I saw the round at New Cross and I remember that Timo Laine took part but only scored two points. I seem to recall that he was riding on borrowed equipment but I might be wrong. Timo Laine was using a borrowed bike for the Internationale series. His own bikes - I think later found - had been stolen while he was on a racing tour of Holland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triple.H. Posted December 10, 2017 Report Share Posted December 10, 2017 (edited) Ari Kopenen (Kai's bother-in-law) was an enigma throughout his career. Recall him starting at Birmingham and finishing at Swindon Bloody Hell how many yards was a lap of that track ? Pekka Hautamaki was a rider I enjoyed watching Edited December 10, 2017 by Triple.H. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted December 10, 2017 Report Share Posted December 10, 2017 Mikka Loppi was tipped to be a star.What ever happened to him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbold Posted December 10, 2017 Report Share Posted December 10, 2017 The first year the Internationale was held (1961),qualifying rounds took place and some riders who were not riding for National League teams in Britain were invited over. I saw the round at New Cross and I remember that Timo Laine took part but only scored two points. I seem to recall that he was riding on borrowed equipment but I might be wrong. Yes, I was there that night as well (I don't remember seeing you though ). Timo Laine did indeed score two points. He managed to beat Dick Fisher and Neil Mortimer, who finished with zero points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatface Posted December 10, 2017 Report Share Posted December 10, 2017 If we compare them at least in the British League,as for the earlier riders we don't have Polish comparisons(not sure if they rode in Sweden?) We have Teromaa 1975..Leicester..34..132..154..41..5.91 1976..Leicester..34..144..266..17..7.86..1F 1977..Leicester..29..135..281..20..8.92 1978..Leicester..37..159..324..22..8.70..4F..1P 1979..Leicester..20..79..115..9..6.28 1979..Cradley..2..8..11..2..6.50 1980..Cradley..33..130..142..31..5.32..1P world finalist 1978 Niemi 1976..White City..29..99..94..26..4.85 1977..White City..39..164..234..47..6.85 1978..White City..34..137..227.5..18..7.17 1979..Eastbourne..34..164..348..11..8.76..4F..1P 1980..Eastbourne..23..113..228..8..8.35..2F 1981..Eastbourne..1..5..6..1..5.60 1981..Birmingham..48..222..367..46..7.44..1P 1982..Wimbledon..42..185..329..43..8.04..2F..2P 1983..Wimbledon..44..181..320..27..7.67..1F..1P 1984..Ipswich..50..201..371..30..7.98..3F..1P 1985..Ipswich..39..161..201..46..6.14 1986..Swindon..23..98..203..4..8.45..1F 1986..Ipswich..16..67..130..4..8.00 1987..Ipswich..45..186..328..26..7.61 1988..Ipswich..38..180..278..31..6.87 1989..Coventry..30..105..104..19..4.69 1991..Long Eaton..12..48..73..7..6.67 world finalist 80,82,84,85 Kylmäkorpi 2001..Eastbourne..38..158..185..28..5.39..1P 2002..Ipswich..30..122..131..20..4.95 2003..Arena Essex..35..178..403..28..9.69..1F..2P 2003..Eastbourne..40..182..303..32..7.36..2F 2004..Eastbourne..30..127..187..36..7.02..1P 2005..Coventry..14..70..111..15..7.20..1F 2005..Peterborough..12..56..86..15..7.21 2006..Arena Essex..32..158..299..20..8.08..1P 2007..Lakeside..21..100..153..30..7.32 2008..Lakeside..27..123..181..42..7.25 2009..Lakeside..29..125..189..23..6.78..1P 2010..Eastbourne..34..165..286..26..7.56..1P 2011..Eastbourne..34..158..288..25..7.92..1F..2P 2012..Eastbourne..14..65..117..13..8.00 2013..Peterborough..12..52..91..8..7.62..1P 2014..Eastbourne..30..130..201..14..6.62..1P 2015..Coventry..24..101..171..17..7.45..1F 2016..Wolves..15..66..108..12..7.27 GP wildcard 4 times? http://wwosbackup.proboards.com/thread/1566/joonas-kylmakorpi I would say Joonas is better without doubt than Teromaa and comparable if not better than Niemi given he rode in a tougher environment as I have shown a few times when you compare say the number of over 10+ averages in 1964 to the number in a larger league in 1965.The larger the league the easier it is to get a higher average.So Joonas has done very well,especially seeing as he often had an injury.So as far as I am concerned there is no way Niemi is head and shoulders above the rest and no way Teromaa is easily the next best.Not on these stats.I'd also say there is not much chance that Kai would have made 4 GP series I was actually a bit surprised,because I thought Niemi would be a good bit better than Joonas at speedway,but to me it doesn't pan out like that Now there is a spirited case! Kylmakorpis record is certainly better than I thought. But...and it is Kardashian sized...I dont think the BL comparisons are valid. Niemi rode in the UK when it was unquestionably the worlds toughest league, Kylmakorpi rode when it was unquestionably not. Also whilst Joonas only got onto the sports premier stage via wild cards, Niemi fully earned his World Final appearances - and acquitted himself pretty well too. Admittedly it flatters him to say this, but he was one ride away from being World Champion in 85. There are better riders who you cannot say that of. So, yes still clearly Niemi for me. But Kylmakorpi comes closer to the likes of Teromaa than I initially thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f-s-p Posted December 10, 2017 Report Share Posted December 10, 2017 Mikka Loppi was tipped to be a star.What ever happened to him?Mika Loppi found a solid financial support behind him for season 2016 and did reasonably well in Finland and in Swedish 1st division. Then about a year ago he decided to go to Lebanon or similar to fix UN/Finnish military vehicles. And for what Im told likes it. I spoke to him last July as he was on holiday and had not made up yet whether to sign for another stint or come back. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted December 10, 2017 Report Share Posted December 10, 2017 Trouble is when you look back Kai got into the world finals generally by a fairly easy route and hardly had to ride outside Scandinavia to do it.The one time he did,i think he had to ride at White City of all places!!!! Saying that he did do well once or twice and a couple of times only finished above riders he would have been expected to. Difficult to compare because of the years between them and the change in world qualifying systems and change in league size and strength.I take your points and also the point about the strength of the longtrack now compared to back then.I do think there is little to choose between them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted December 10, 2017 Report Share Posted December 10, 2017 Trouble is when you look back Kai got into the world finals generally by a fairly easy route and hardly had to ride outside Scandinavia to do it.The one time he did,i think he had to ride at White City of all places!!!! Saying that he did do well once or twice and a couple of times only finished above riders he would have been expected to. Difficult to compare because of the years between them and the change in world qualifying systems and change in league size and strength.I take your points and also the point about the strength of the longtrack now compared to back then.I do think there is little to choose between them ...although he failed to qualify from White City in 1977! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted December 10, 2017 Report Share Posted December 10, 2017 (edited) ...although he failed to qualify from White City in 1977! Forgot about that.I was looking at his path to the 1980 world final.And it does show up the problems with the old system,because no way would you say Kai was better than Ole Olsen or Ivan Mauger or Peter Collins or Michael Lee,but on that night at that track he finished above them.What are we supposed to get from that stat? As I mentioned elsewhere in a series of one off individual meetings a rider like Lubos Tomicek was a finger tip away from qualifying for the GP series and a 2nd tier rider like Kyle Legault made it all the way to the Challenge!!! Edited December 10, 2017 by iris123 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatface Posted December 10, 2017 Report Share Posted December 10, 2017 (edited) Forgot about that.I was looking at his path to the 1980 world final.And it does show up the problems with the old system,because no way would you say Kai was better than Ole Olsen or Ivan Mauger or Peter Collins or Michael Lee,but on that night at that track he finished above them.What are we supposed to get from that stat? As I mentioned elsewhere in a series of one off individual meetings a rider like Lubos Tomicek was a finger tip away from qualifying for the GP series and a 2nd tier rider like Kyle Legault made it all the way to the Challenge!!! Of course. Im not trying to paint Kai Niemi as some under rated world beater. He was not, but he was a very high level international racer for a good chunk of time. Facts are that he reached four World Finals and acquitted himself well when he got there. We are not talking a Petr Ondrasik-esque (try saying that after a few pints) situation here. We can speculate as to the abilities of each rider if they were in different eras. But as far as Finnish speedway riders go, none have a record that remotely compares with Niemis. Ps. Keeping the big issues of the day rumbling on...anyone know why iPhones lose the apostrophes when posting on this site? Edited December 10, 2017 by falcace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.