steve roberts Posted November 29, 2017 Report Share Posted November 29, 2017 the original plan was to reopen harringay, but Len silver objected. The promoters at white city were banking on the ex Wembley fans turning up to support the venture, but this never happened. Wood lane was a bit of a white elephant, but i loved it there. I only missed four meetings at the city between 1976 -83, not a bad record. Yes I followed 'The Rebels' from Cowley and never missed a league meeting and did many of the open international leagues when 'The Rebels' moved on. It was a great stadium and I remember being in awe of the place! I had forgotten the Harringay connection. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halifaxtiger Posted November 29, 2017 Report Share Posted November 29, 2017 I recall that Danny Dunton & Bob Dugard made a huge loss after White City won the title (is it really forty years ago now!) but came back for another season before calling a halt to league speedway at Wood Lane and moving the operation to Eastbourne in 1979. That was back during the supposed affluent seventies (although running speedway at Wood Lane must have been a massive undertaking) so goodness knows how modern promoters even begin to break even never mind generate a small profit. They continued to lose money at Eastbourne. A lot of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moxey63 Posted November 29, 2017 Report Share Posted November 29, 2017 (edited) They continued to lose money at Eastbourne. A lot of it. Should we trust anybody within the sport who accepts losing money every season? Edited November 29, 2017 by moxey63 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted November 29, 2017 Report Share Posted November 29, 2017 They continued to lose money at Eastbourne. A lot of it. ...yes I followed them to Eastbourne as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noggin Posted November 29, 2017 Report Share Posted November 29, 2017 to paraphrase the old joke - you can make thousands promoting speedway but you have to start with millions! Yep, how to make a small fortune in speedway, start with a large one. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinmauger Posted November 30, 2017 Report Share Posted November 30, 2017 Whilst you don't always go out to win the league, entertaining your own fans at home is priority, if you make some good decisions and work with others you sometimes do get a league winning side. Our link with Danish people, and the signings of Nicki, Bjarne, and later KB, had a lot to do with our success in 2001. We got a decent set of riders with Bjarne, Jesper, Andre, Kevin, etc, and were heading for a title all the year, together with Hull who had a good solid side. With only a few meetings left we went away to Hull and beat them, which virtually assured us of the PL title. Due to more points to pay for, we made a loss winning the title, but I was told after the Hull meeting that they had then lost £60k trying to win it. That team, but with KB instead of Bjarne, went on to be level with Sheffield on league points in 2002, but Sheffield won that title because they had higher aggregate points than us due to their vast track advantage. So once again. we made a loss. Hull lost a fair bit in 2004 winning the treble: Craven Shield, KOC Cup + League = loads of big wins + many points, promoters prefer scores to be 3-3 then a 4-2 in the final heat, less bonus points to pay out. Led to cheaper team by choice in 2005 despite loads of sponsorship and advertising being achieved, in proggie & every 3rd fence panel. I.e. it takes some doing to get all 3 armed forces to advertise. The crowds hardly increased, if at all, yet local media coverage was very good. We had a minimum of full page in the Hull Daily Mail on match days, back page in colour if no footie or rugby matches, same the next nite with the result, plus a few 2 page spreads at the start of the season & during the year as we closed in on trophies in addition then odd half page column during the week. Yet folk would ask me "how are the Vikings doing, did you ride or win last night ?" - these were folk who were into sport and read the local paper. Sometimes words fail me.... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sotonian Posted November 30, 2017 Report Share Posted November 30, 2017 Hull lost a fair bit in 2004 winning the treble: Craven Shield, KOC Cup + League = loads of big wins + many points, promoters prefer scores to be 3-3 then a 4-2 in the final heat, less bonus points to pay out. Really? Surely 15 4-2 heats is the cheapest outcome, with 8 in favour of the home team to clinch the win. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halifaxtiger Posted November 30, 2017 Report Share Posted November 30, 2017 (edited) Should we trust anybody within the sport who accepts losing money every season? Certainly where loss making is concerned speedway is little different to other sports. The losses incurred and debts owed by Championship football clubs are millions and tens of millions. Bolton are the worst : their debt after the 2015/16 season was pushing £200m, an eye watering figure which even when you take relative turnover, crowds and income into account makes losses run up by speedway promoters look like chicken feed. In addition, the clubs are almost entirely owned by wealthy individuals with money to burn. https://www.insidermedia.com/insider/national/football-finance-championship-club-by-club-2015-16 Edited November 30, 2017 by Halifaxtiger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinmauger Posted November 30, 2017 Report Share Posted November 30, 2017 Really? Surely 15 4-2 heats is the cheapest outcome, with 8 in favour of the home team to clinch the win. I know, but it's what I was told. Also when fans complain about the increase in admission most promoters pay way more to watch their speedway, usually around £10,000, while we critcise them I guess we should be pleased that they are willing to do so.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ch958 Posted December 1, 2017 Report Share Posted December 1, 2017 I know, but it's what I was told. Also when fans complain about the increase in admission most promoters pay way more to watch their speedway, usually around £10,000, while we critcise them I guess we should be pleased that they are willing to do so.... I agree but equally - they could do something about it use one of their conferences to work on reducing costs - easier said than done but necessary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waytogo28 Posted December 1, 2017 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2017 I know, but it's what I was told. Also when fans complain about the increase in admission most promoters pay way more to watch their speedway, usually around £10,000, while we critcise them I guess we should be pleased that they are willing to do so.... I hope that the bleating promoters are not paying £10,000 per match to watch this speedway. If they are then, they must be so wealthy that their £250,000 a year losses are a mere pinprick in their vast wealth ( in which case why not have lots more fans watching at £10 a head? ) If they are not so well off then they must be daft or financial masochists! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moxey63 Posted December 1, 2017 Report Share Posted December 1, 2017 Certainly where loss making is concerned speedway is little different to other sports. The losses incurred and debts owed by Championship football clubs are millions and tens of millions. Bolton are the worst : their debt after the 2015/16 season was pushing £200m, an eye watering figure which even when you take relative turnover, crowds and income into account makes losses run up by speedway promoters look like chicken feed. In addition, the clubs are almost entirely owned by wealthy individuals with money to burn. https://www.insidermedia.com/insider/national/football-finance-championship-club-by-club-2015-16 I understand where you're at, Halifaxtiger. Comparing mega-rich football owners who can take a hit with the humble speedway fan-turned promoter should be avoided. I always think, as a speedway fan, it would be mere stupidity to actually wish to run a track and then lose thousands upon thousands of pounds every week, just to satisfy my craving and appease the few hundred that want to pass through my turnstiles. To see your bank balance dwindling, your home being placed at risk, I cannot see any sane person placing their life's hard work and business into what seems merely a mid-life crisis that is running a speedway track. If people are alright with ploughing this cash into speedway, then, I ask again, are these the sort of people who should be running the sport? There isn't enough money coming in, too much going out. Start from breaking even at least, making small profits. But annual loses equals a bad ending. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattK Posted December 1, 2017 Report Share Posted December 1, 2017 I understand where you're at, Halifaxtiger. Comparing mega-rich football owners who can take a hit with the humble speedway fan-turned promoter should be avoided. I always think, as a speedway fan, it would be mere stupidity to actually wish to run a track and then lose thousands upon thousands of pounds every week, just to satisfy my craving and appease the few hundred that want to pass through my turnstiles. To see your bank balance dwindling, your home being placed at risk, I cannot see any sane person placing their life's hard work and business into what seems merely a mid-life crisis that is running a speedway track. If people are alright with ploughing this cash into speedway, then, I ask again, are these the sort of people who should be running the sport? There isn't enough money coming in, too much going out. Start from breaking even at least, making small profits. But annual loses equals a bad ending. Unfortunately, that is how sport works. How many sponsors get a positive return on their investment? I'd argue none, they do it because of their love of the sport and potentially personal relationship with the athletes. Club ownership is the same but on a bigger level. To answer your question... generous people. If someone can come up with a profitable business model for speedway then I'm sure everyone will be all ears. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moxey63 Posted December 1, 2017 Report Share Posted December 1, 2017 Unfortunately, that is how sport works. How many sponsors get a positive return on their investment? I'd argue none, they do it because of their love of the sport and potentially personal relationship with the athletes. Club ownership is the same but on a bigger level. To answer your question... generous people. If someone can come up with a profitable business model for speedway then I'm sure everyone will be all ears. Not talking about sponsors and if they get a return, we are discussing profit and loss of speedway. Sponsors tend to have proper businesses and can afford to dip into their funds to sponsor a rider or other. But running a speedway is either you make a buck or you lose out, and then send out the annual S.O.S. that the gullible fan believes but usually has the track opening up the next season just the same. Complaining about losing money... is it some kind of dodge they all do, do you think? I mean, when was the last promoter who chucked down his wallet on his table and said he was making too much of a good living? If a track was losing money season after season, a fool would be that person throwing good money after bad, love of the sport or otherwise. A fan wouldn't spend £20 a match to go and watch a sport he could really afford. Why do hard-nosed promoters who have made their money by hard work and yet want to throw it away for the love of their sport? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waytogo28 Posted December 1, 2017 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2017 Not talking about sponsors and if they get a return, we are discussing profit and loss of speedway. Sponsors tend to have proper businesses and can afford to dip into their funds to sponsor a rider or other. But running a speedway is either you make a buck or you lose out, and then send out the annual S.O.S. that the gullible fan believes but usually has the track opening up the next season just the same. Complaining about losing money... is it some kind of dodge they all do, do you think? I mean, when was the last promoter who chucked down his wallet on his table and said he was making too much of a good living? If a track was losing money season after season, a fool would be that person throwing good money after bad, love of the sport or otherwise. A fan wouldn't spend £20 a match to go and watch a sport he could really afford. Why do hard-nosed promoters who have made their money by hard work and yet want to throw it away for the love of their sport? It is the ultimate fantasy for some people. They may not be able to afford to be the Chairman of Manchester United ( or whoever in the Premier football league ) - but to be at the helm of sporting enterprise for only a few thousand every year AND play a part in major decisions about that sport must be thrilling and uplifting ( even fulfilling ) for those of that bent. We all have dreams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moxey63 Posted December 1, 2017 Report Share Posted December 1, 2017 (edited) It is the ultimate fantasy for some people. They may not be able to afford to be the Chairman of Manchester United ( or whoever in the Premier football league ) - but to be at the helm of sporting enterprise for only a few thousand every year AND play a part in major decisions about that sport must be thrilling and uplifting ( even fulfilling ) for those of that bent. We all have dreams. I'd rather spend a tenner on the Flying Shale game for my PC! I'd rather spend a tenner on the Flying Shale game for my PC! The annual will-they run, won't they, is no good what-so-ever for the sport's image. At Belle Vue under John Perrin, it was every winter, threats of closure. But, after the first handful of close-seasons of worry... you know what? Boy cries wolf. Regards to sponsors throwing money at speedway and getting little back for it. A little money to have your company's name in the home programme, some more to have it adorned down a riders race suit, totally different than it being money that keeps the wolf away from your door. It shows the business can afford to ease the purse strings. Compare it to the sponsor who owns that business... and ask whether they'd be able to run that business year-upon-year of losing money at whatever line they are in. Doubt it. Most promoters have proper businesses away from speedway, like those sponsors do, and I'm guessing that they (promoters) wouldn't allow those businesses to lose money every year, like they tell us they're losing at the track... so are we being told the truth about money lost by speedway tracks? I have doubted it for so long.... a little swizz perhaps? Edited December 1, 2017 by moxey63 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinmauger Posted December 1, 2017 Report Share Posted December 1, 2017 I hope that the bleating promoters are not paying £10,000 per match to watch this speedway. If they are then, they must be so wealthy that their £250,000 a year losses are a mere pinprick in their vast wealth ( in which case why not have lots more fans watching at £10 a head? ) If they are not so well off then they must be daft or financial masochists! Didn't explain as clealry as I should have, but he meant 'paying', i.e. losing, £10k over a season, which many probably do. Being 'speedway mad' doesn't come close.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattK Posted December 1, 2017 Report Share Posted December 1, 2017 Compare it to the sponsor who owns that business... and ask whether they'd be able to run that business year-upon-year of losing money at whatever line they are in. Doubt it. Most promoters have proper businesses away from speedway, like those sponsors do, and I'm guessing that they (promoters) wouldn't allow those businesses to lose money every year, like they tell us they're losing at the track... so are we being told the truth about money lost by speedway tracks? I have doubted it for so long.... a little swizz perhaps? The main difference is that you run a business with the aim of making money. I don't think anyone buys a speedway club with the expectation of making a profit. The best case scenario is that it breaks even. As I said, most do it for the love of the sport and no doubt a bit of ego is in there too. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobMcCaffery Posted December 1, 2017 Report Share Posted December 1, 2017 A promoter who was losing a grand a meeting, which had to be banked in cash weekly alongside the takings, once sighed "Ah well, it was this or a Roller". I don't think he was talking track equipment. I got the impression it was all an expensive power game for many promoters. Still, if it is, many supporters have seen more years of their team than economics and common sense would have allowed which is surely no bad thing. Some people are far to keen to see tracks close, as long as it isn't theirs of course........ 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waytogo28 Posted December 2, 2017 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2017 A promoter who was losing a grand a meeting, which had to be banked in cash weekly alongside the takings, once sighed "Ah well, it was this or a Roller". I don't think he was talking track equipment. I got the impression it was all an expensive power game for many promoters. Still, if it is, many supporters have seen more years of their team than economics and common sense would have allowed which is surely no bad thing. Some people are far to keen to see tracks close, as long as it isn't theirs of course........ I don't think any fans currently attending speedway ( or even following from their armchair with the SS ) are "keen " to see tracks close. They just want to see the sport run more effectively and offer good VFM racing on track. IF it is for some promoters "an expensive power game" they must be very wealthy to run it in such an ineffective manner, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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