Team Combined Average Limit...

[dontforgetthefueltapsbruv]

Apparently there were a few on Facebook expecting Covatti to start at reserve for Ipswich next year on the basis he was named last when the team was revealed!

 

That says it all about some fans grasp of averages.

[SCB]

 

PS round to zero decimal places for team building so it's far easier to make replacements without being constrained because a rider is 0.05 over the rider they're replacing or restricting team building because the total exceeds the limit by a fraction. I recall in the 80's Eastbourne not being allowed to track the team they wanted because their total came to something like 0.01 over the limit. As such I think someone like Darren Standing was forced out of the team on that basis. Nonsensical.

This arguement again. And what happens when you want to sign a rider who last year averaged 4.51 and only have 4 points to play with? Under your rules he's now a 5 so doesn't fit. You also have the issue that a rich teams would sign 7 riders who averages x.49 and the poor teams would be left with 7 riders who averages x.51 meaning the rich team will have a team 4.5 point higher.

 

The more decimal places you do averages to, the easier it is to sign replacements in reality, not the other way around. To take your idea to the extreme, lets round all riders to the nearest 6 points, making everyone 0,6 or 12, all riders would fit into one of 3 categories, much easier to sign replacement right?

[Tsunami]

 

Totally agree. Look at the big franchise sports of American Football, Baseball, Basketball, Ice Hockey all crammed full of stats which really add something to the commentary. Cricket being a fine British example to the point where TMS have a resident statistician to point out key milestones. All of which are fairly simplistic averages and rankings adding interest even when the action is lacking.

Football doesn't readily lend itself to such statistical analysis but look at the OPTA stats a commentators dream. John Motson is lorded for use of stats.

I'm sure it would add colour to speedway if the announcers/presenters/commentators could quote the latest statistics such as a riders average from gate 4 or who has the most points in the league from heat 10. There are numerous possibilities which I'm sure would be collated if a betting company were invited to collaborate. Could even lead to sponsorship opportunities with prize money for riders heading various categories. Just who was the best rider from gate 1 in 2017?? Not essential to the plot but interesting to know.

All the best things in life have layers. For some people watching 4 bikes racing around an oval is enough, others like to keep score, some like to know the stats to aid predictions, some like the mechanical/technical aspects and some even enjoy knowing about the personal lives of the competitors. If people enjoy it it's all good.

 

 

PS round to zero decimal places for team building so it's far easier to make replacements without being constrained because a rider is 0.05 over the rider they're replacing or restricting team building because the total exceeds the limit by a fraction. I recall in the 80's Eastbourne not being allowed to track the team they wanted because their total came to something like 0.01 over the limit. As such I think someone like Darren Standing was forced out of the team on that basis. Nonsensical.

I remember in the 00's, Ray Morton wanted to ride for Hull, but was only 0.01 over the teams points limit and the move never happened. It seems hard, but todays 0.01 is tomorrows 0.02 / 0.03 etc. Thing was he was wanting to return to Hull as his wife was from there I believe, but stats are stats and have to be obeyed.

[False dawn]

 

Totally agree. Look at the big franchise sports of American Football, Baseball, Basketball, Ice Hockey all crammed full of stats which really add something to the commentary. Cricket being a fine British example to the point where TMS have a resident statistician to point out key milestones. All of which are fairly simplistic averages and rankings adding interest even when the action is lacking.

Football doesn't readily lend itself to such statistical analysis but look at the OPTA stats a commentators dream. John Motson is lorded for use of stats.

I'm sure it would add colour to speedway if the announcers/presenters/commentators could quote the latest statistics such as a riders average from gate 4 or who has the most points in the league from heat 10. There are numerous possibilities which I'm sure would be collated if a betting company were invited to collaborate. Could even lead to sponsorship opportunities with prize money for riders heading various categories. Just who was the best rider from gate 1 in 2017?? Not essential to the plot but interesting to know.

All the best things in life have layers. For some people watching 4 bikes racing around an oval is enough, others like to keep score, some like to know the stats to aid predictions, some like the mechanical/technical aspects and some even enjoy knowing about the personal lives of the competitors. If people enjoy it it's all good.

Love it.

KL used to show lap time splits a few years ago. You could have an award for the fastest flying lap.

[Gemini]

I'm not interested in statistics as they're much too confusing for me so I don't comment about them on here, but I do know if I'm anywhere near False dawn at a Speedway meeting he will know exactly which gate positions have been the best all night. It's just easier to ask him than try to understand things myself.

[waiheke1]

 

The usual post.

 

When you don't understand something and even when it's explained still REFUSE to understand, resort to the old 'it's a big joke' line.

 

 

Some simply won't listen I'm afraid waiheke.

 

On the Wolves fan page a fan, supported by quite a few others, was rambling on about how weak the league was because it didn't have 20+ 9pt average riders like it did in the late 60's (time period he quoted). A few of us quickly explained that was due to the size of the league, the heat format and the fact bonus pts were included in the averages. Of course, rather than learning something they continue to argue and came out with a classic....

 

"Are you seriously telling me that if 20 Tony Rickardsson level riders were in British Speedway now they wouldn't all have 9+ averages, lol!"

 

I replied that I am categorically 100% stating that would be the case and explained how often they would be racing against each other. The response? A block and he left the group.

 

It's staggering just how some refuse to learn.

One good way to illustrate the last point is to look at averages from the old test series of the 70s and 80s. Plenty of 9 point riders who averaged 4-6 points in those series (if you convert to 4 ride averages).

[Gresham]

The usual post by those missing the point completely...always thinking they are right...saying people don't understand, when they do....and can't except, and refuse to except others may have a different opinion...just because they think they are right and everyone has to agree with them.

 

Same old, same old...you can illustrate all you want with past examples. Perhaps take your head out from your stats, take a deep breath, and think maybe over all these years, it's this infatuation with stats and averages, that has contributed to the downfall of speedway over the years.

 

Just maybe...something so ingrained is hard to remove for some people.

[Hacksaw Jim Duggan]

The White Knight rarely makes a valid point - just follows posters around and tends to agree with the poster rather than the point, made a total fool of himself on this thread

 

This thread in general is quite bizarre..

 

A point is made, not an opinion an actual suggestion of a rule change based on total BS logic – someone shows that logic to be wrong and explains why the limit is set as it is, clearly, fairly and with logic, and in doing so they are basically called idiots because they are smarter than the OP and understand the rules of the sport better than the OP.

 

God dam morons and their education...people, people knowing more than other people rrrrr....makes you so angry when people learn things others don't rrrrr.

Edited November 27, 2017 by Hacksaw Jim Duggan

[BWitcher]

The usual post by those missing the point completely...always thinking they are right...saying people don't understand, when they do....and can't except, and refuse to except others may have a different opinion...just because they think they are right and everyone has to agree with them.

 

Same old, same old...you can illustrate all you want with past examples. Perhaps take your head out from your stats, take a deep breath, and think maybe over all these years, it's this infatuation with stats and averages, that has contributed to the downfall of speedway over the years.

 

Just maybe...something so ingrained is hard to remove for some people.

 

We think we're right because we ARE right. You'd have to be pretty dumb to keep posting about something when you're wrong.

 

We're not discussing an opinion, we're discussing something factual.

 

The only person who needs to 'take a deep breath' is yourself. Have you stopped to consider why we can illustrate things with past examples?

 

Stats, as has already been discussed, are immensely popular in all of the major sports yet you in your infinite wisdom believe they have contributed to the demise of speedway. The reality is quite the opposite, the statistical side of the sport could be expanded upon massively to help hook more fans.

[ch958]

time to stop digging - the hole is nearly through to China

[False dawn]

I'm not interested in statistics as they're much too confusing for me so I don't comment about them on here, but I do know if I'm anywhere near False dawn at a Speedway meeting he will know exactly which gate positions have been the best all night. It's just easier to ask him than try to understand things myself.

Surely that's the point. We should have access to statistics not generate them ourselves. For example, rider averages. It is not difficult to imagine an online enquiry / app where you could look up your team's current averages, guest averages / eligibility, averages by nationality / eye colour or inside leg measurement if you like. The possibility for masses of stats, drawn from currently available data is only limited by one's imagination. For example, a rider's average at a given track. That could be useful when selecting guests. A second string's ability to beat heat leaders. A very good measure of his skill.

The list just goes on and on. Get the raw data and you can create useful and interesting information.

[waiheke1]

Is speedway unique in that so many fans dont understand the statistics, despite the fact that they are much simpler /less varied than the stats in almost any other sport? Its hard to imagine a cricket fan for example not understanding averages or strike rates. What does this say about speedway fans?

[Humphrey Appleby]

Its hard to imagine a cricket fan for example not understanding averages or strike rates. What does this say about speedway fans?

 

I suppose the CMA is an abstracted statistic, unlike a batting, bowling average or bowling strike rate. A batting average in particular, fairly accurately reflects a batsman's contribution each time they go to the crease, with the exception that not outs tend to make lower order batsmen look better than they actually are.

 

Batting strike rates are a bit abstract though, and it doesn't really make much sense why it's based on 100 rather than say 6 balls. In a T20 match, a batsman will be lucky to face 100 balls and to me a per-over strike rate would be more relevant.

 

But unlike in cricket, riders don't take the same number of rides in each match, so a CMA can only be abstracted. I think it would make more sense to have a per-ride average (i.e. out of 3), but then you'd have to have a 10.50 team building limit, and you'd inevitably still get some saying you need 45 points to draw a meeting.. sigh...

Edited November 27, 2017 by Humphrey Appleby

[Tsunami]

Is speedway unique in that so many fans dont understand the statistics, despite the fact that they are much simpler /less varied than the stats in almost any other sport? Its hard to imagine a cricket fan for example not understanding averages or strike rates. What does this say about speedway fans?

and Duckworth Lewis formulae.

[enotian]

This arguement again. And what happens when you want to sign a rider who last year averaged 4.51 and only have 4 points to play with? Under your rules he's now a 5 so doesn't fit. You also have the issue that a rich teams would sign 7 riders who averages x.49 and the poor teams would be left with 7 riders who averages x.51 meaning the rich team will have a team 4.5 point higher.

 

The more decimal places you do averages to, the easier it is to sign replacements in reality, not the other way around. To take your idea to the extreme, lets round all riders to the nearest 6 points, making everyone 0,6 or 12, all riders would fit into one of 3 categories, much easier to sign replacement right?

Good point if the sport was decided on a spreadsheet. Luckily it's not. To assert that a rider who averages 4.94 is better than a rider who averages 4.51 is flawed. In 100 match races between the two does the 4.94 rider win all 100? Does he win more than half? The answer? Nobody knows. Granted the wider the range the more predictable the outcome of the match races.

Averages can only ever be indicative of a riders ability. If you wanted you could actually work out a riders real average by removing the points they gained by good fortune (in which a rider in front retired or fell or even made a mistake).

Statistics are great but they're almost all inherent of dysfunctional results and therefore skewed and without wanting to have riders averages quoted with a standard deviation the rounding to whole numbers or 0.5 should provide a valid indication of the riders ability.

[waiheke1]

....Can someone explain to me how the BSPA decide on the limit each year.

 

Imo...it should be set at 45.00

 

The points needed to draw a meeting.

 

 

 

 

The usual post by those missing the point completely...always thinking they are right...saying people don't understand, when they do....and can't except, and refuse to except others may have a different opinion...just because they think they are right and everyone has to agree with them.

 

There are valid arguments that could be presented for a 45 point limit. The thing is, that you raised the one argument which shows a total lack of understanding of averages. It's incomprehensible that someone who understands averages would suggest the limit "should be 45 because that's how may points are needed to draw a meeting"

Good point if the sport was decided on a spreadsheet. Luckily it's not. To assert that a rider who averages 4.94 is better than a rider who averages 4.51 is flawed. In 100 match races between the two does the 4.94 rider win all 100? Does he win more than half? The answer? Nobody knows. Granted the wider the range the more predictable the outcome of the match races.

Averages can only ever be indicative of a riders ability. If you wanted you could actually work out a riders real average by removing the points they gained by good fortune (in which a rider in front retired or fell or even made a mistake).

Statistics are great but they're almost all inherent of dysfunctional results and therefore skewed and without wanting to have riders averages quoted with a standard deviation the rounding to whole numbers or 0.5 should provide a valid indication of the riders ability.

but what benefit do you gain from rounding to 0.5 ? It provides a less accurate indication than rounding to 2dp, and means impact of anomalise such as an ef coudl be cinreased from 0.01 or 0.02 to 0.5. There are occasional issues now with riders throwing races to drop their averages by 0.02 points are so. How much worse would it be if rider knows dropping a couple of points can see them landed with an average 0.5 or 1 point lower for the next season.

[Gresham]

 

We think we're right because we ARE right. You'd have to be pretty dumb to keep posting about something when you're wrong.

 

We're not discussing an opinion, we're discussing something factual.

 

The only person who needs to 'take a deep breath' is yourself. Have you stopped to consider why we can illustrate things with past examples?

 

Stats, as has already been discussed, are immensely popular in all of the major sports yet you in your infinite wisdom believe they have contributed to the demise of speedway. The reality is quite the opposite, the statistical side of the sport could be expanded upon massively to help hook more fans.

Yes...I have considered why certain people can illustrate with examples...basically they are the 'pedants' of the forum. People who only see one point of the argument, who cannot see the whole picture and refuse to see the reason for the thread and it's other points.

 

Whilst purely statistically, you can come to a figure...but that figure doesn't mean it's for the good of Speedway.

 

The problem with people who enjoy statistics is they are often blinkered and can't/won't see past those numbers.

 

It's an aggressive sport for ruthless men on bikes with no breaks, racing to the limit...A sport that has the same type of following as most team sports in this country.

 

If you think Speedway in this day and age will attract new fans because of it's attractiveness for filling in programmes and working out stat's, then IMO...you are completely deluded, and out of touch with modern society in this country.

 

I've taken various newbies to the speedway. They've all enjoyed the actual racing...but all commented on how funny it was, watching a bunch of old men, with heads like pigeons bobbing up and down in their programmes instantly after the end of a heat. None of them found that a draw to the meeting...just something comical and in fact a turn off.

 

Imo...the 'programme and it's filling in' during a meeting, has been part of the downfall to speedways unpopularity. Whilst past generations might have enjoyed it, I don't think the younger generation do. It's enabled Promotors to be lazy in how they present a meeting....no reason to 'entertain' between heats, just let the public read their programmes and fill them in.

 

Imo...the infatuation with stats in team building by the BSPA, and the way it's done, and it's reasons, pretty much destroys continuity with riders at teams each season. Whether 'statistically' it is correct...is by the by...it is wrong in so many ways for the good of speedway and what fans want from a team.

 

In the same way...the same for programme filling in by the public. Something that speedway has done over the years...but is it right for Speedway now?

 

Older generations used to sit at County cricket games filling in score books. County games have similar crowds to speedway.

 

Cricket...a game of stats...saw the need to move on and modernise. 50-50, 20-20...entertainment and razzmatazz...and scoreboards showing you all you need to know. People watching the game, being entertained...not doing something they could be doing in their own homes. Sat filling in books.

 

For all the reasons mentioned in this post...that's why I think the team building average should be higher...not purely down to pure maths.

[Hacksaw Jim Duggan]

 

What a load of f*cken guff

Edited November 28, 2017 by Hacksaw Jim Duggan

[SCB]

Surely that's the point. We should have access to statistics not generate them ourselves. For example, rider averages. It is not difficult to imagine an online enquiry / app where you could look up your team's current averages, guest averages / eligibility, averages by nationality / eye colour or inside leg measurement if you like. The possibility for masses of stats, drawn from currently available data is only limited by one's imagination. For example, a rider's average at a given track. That could be useful when selecting guests. A second string's ability to beat heat leaders. A very good measure of his skill.

The list just goes on and on. Get the raw data and you can create useful and interesting information.

If only someone had thought to do that

 

http://speedway-stats.co.uk/

[MattK]

If you think Speedway in this day and age will attract new fans because of it's attractiveness for filling in programmes and working out stat's, then IMO...you are completely deluded, and out of touch with modern society in this country.

 

If you look at the huge increase in popularity of fantasy football and online gambling, I think the statistical side of sport is massively popular.

In my opinion, speedway doesn't emphasise the statistically side of the sport enough. There is a vast potential markets of statos which could be targeted.