Team Combined Average Limit...

[Grand Central]

I just wish the forum could employ a 'maths monitor'.

 

Those with a self-evident blindspot for statistics could then be taken away for their own safety.

Where they can be helped to understand that they must SHUT UP and stop posting things about averages.

 

Year after year, month after month they just insist on doing this time after time.

 

Is this what it is like at a BSPA AGM ?

Like a remedial class for people that really believe they understand stuff when they so clearly don't ?

Edited November 25, 2017 by Grand Central

[arnieg]

 

Is this what it is like at a BSPA AGM ? really believe they understand stuff when they so clearly don't ?

Yes

 

I was once commissioned to write and submit a paper rebutting a rather mad idea for recalculating averages that one of the leading lights of the BSPA was pushing for.

[The White Knight]

Yes

 

I was once commissioned to write and submit a paper rebutting a rather mad idea for recalculating averages that one of the leading lights of the BSPA was pushing for.

Averages - I don't think about them - I leave that to others who are more qualified.

[baba]

Why not after a race, 1st and 2nd take of their helmets and have a game of tiddly winks to contest who has the silliest underwear on.

 

Slayer blasting out the tannoy, half price pies from the snack van during the game of tiddly winks, to keep the punters happy.

Raffle tickets on sale to win a haircut at "off wae the lot" barbers in the outerhebridies.

Somebody faints at snackbar queuing for pies. Tiddly winks still hasnt been contested yet cause....yes wait for it....somebody misplaced them so the clerk of the course is away home to get his favourite set so the meeting can continue.

Edited November 26, 2017 by baba

[Gresham]

I just wish the forum could employ a 'maths monitor'.

 

Those with a self-evident blindspot for statistics could then be taken away for their own safety.

Where they can be helped to understand that they must SHUT UP and stop posting things about averages.

 

Year after year, month after month they just insist on doing this time after time.

 

Is this what it is like at a BSPA AGM ?

Like a remedial class for people that really believe they understand stuff when they so clearly don't ?

Perhaps a 'logical monitor' should be introduced instead...as imo, it is this fixation with 'statistics' that has ruined Speedway over the years.

 

Rules, amount of rides, amount of races, amount of points awarded etc, etc have changed frequently over the years, as do the average limits.

 

It's a complete joke, and has had a negative effect on the sport for many.

 

Speedway should be about the racing and continuity of riders at a club. Fans getting accustomed to that team and feeling affiliated to them. It isn't.

 

The sport is fixated with stats...it has become so dominant in the sport that it has had a negative effect.

 

It feels more like Trainspotters convention mixed with Countdown ;-)

 

Whilst everyone can sit around with their calculators, working out averages, coming to whatever we think it should be....perhaps we should get our heads out of these stats, stop being so pedantic and get the sport back to what it should be all about.

[Grand Central]

Which backs up my point completely.

 

Those that have no interest in any of the issues surrounding averages and the rules to which they relate should keep quiet.

And leave it to those who understand.

 

They could then just go along in their uninformed, blinkered way, and 'enjoy the racing'.

 

But they won't.

They keep coming on threads like this and making daft points about the very subject they don't understand.

Seemingly JUST to display their ignorance.

 

.

Edited November 26, 2017 by Grand Central

[Tsunami]

Which backs up my point completely.

 

Those that have no interest in any of the issues surrounding averages and the rules to which they relate should keep quiet.

And leave it to those who understand.

 

They could then just go along in their uninformed, blinkered way, and 'enjoy the racing'.

 

But they won't.

They keep coming on threads like this and making daft points about the very subject they don't understand.

Seemingly JUST to display their ignorance.

 

.

Hear Hear, Gresham would soon have complaints it one team thrashed Somerset with a team points of say 50 to Gary's 38. Or if young reserve riders were not getting rides, cos the top riders were taking all their rides and we ended up with no young riders of our own. More criticism then. Asking for stronger teams with a higher points limit and running out of riders. The list could go on, but ignorance of statistics should not rule the sport.

Edited November 26, 2017 by Tsunami

[SCB]

Perhaps a 'logical monitor' should be introduced instead...as imo, it is this fixation with 'statistics' that has ruined Speedway over the years.

Maths is the very core of logic. If you can't do maths then you can't do logic. And these days it seems to be a badge of honour when people can't do maths which is worrying then because it suggests they can't do logic.

[BWitcher]

Perhaps a 'logical monitor' should be introduced instead...as imo, it is this fixation with 'statistics' that has ruined Speedway over the years.

 

Rules, amount of rides, amount of races, amount of points awarded etc, etc have changed frequently over the years, as do the average limits.

 

It's a complete joke, and has had a negative effect on the sport for many.

 

Speedway should be about the racing and continuity of riders at a club. Fans getting accustomed to that team and feeling affiliated to them. It isn't.

 

The sport is fixated with stats...it has become so dominant in the sport that it has had a negative effect.

 

It feels more like Trainspotters convention mixed with Countdown ;-)

 

Whilst everyone can sit around with their calculators, working out averages, coming to whatever we think it should be....perhaps we should get our heads out of these stats, stop being so pedantic and get the sport back to what it should be all about.

 

The usual post.

 

When you don't understand something and even when it's explained still REFUSE to understand, resort to the old 'it's a big joke' line.

As a side note, I assume the OP was taking the p with his suggestion? Surely, surely after the number of fines the topic has been covered no one genuinely thinks like this?

 

Some simply won't listen I'm afraid waiheke.

 

On the Wolves fan page a fan, supported by quite a few others, was rambling on about how weak the league was because it didn't have 20+ 9pt average riders like it did in the late 60's (time period he quoted). A few of us quickly explained that was due to the size of the league, the heat format and the fact bonus pts were included in the averages. Of course, rather than learning something they continue to argue and came out with a classic....

 

"Are you seriously telling me that if 20 Tony Rickardsson level riders were in British Speedway now they wouldn't all have 9+ averages, lol!"

 

I replied that I am categorically 100% stating that would be the case and explained how often they would be racing against each other. The response? A block and he left the group.

 

It's staggering just how some refuse to learn.

[Humphrey Appleby]

All of which makes you think that using averages to two decimal places for team building is ludicrous. But that's another story.

 

Any system using averages is going to be flawed, however its implemented. However, it's probably still the best and fairest method for measuring the relative contribution of riders, and by extension regulating team strengths.

 

But the way the points limit is currently implemented is too punitive, provides no incentives for teams to use young riders and build rather than buy teams, nor offer much in the way of team continuity from year-to-year. It is possible to adapt the points limit to facilitate this, but when you see some of the misunderstandings about how things work now, I fear it would be a difficult sell.

[The White Knight]

 

The usual post.

 

When you don't understand something and even when it's explained still REFUSE to understand, resort to the old 'it's a big joke' line.

 

Some simply won't listen I'm afraid waiheke.

 

On the Wolves fan page a fan, supported by quite a few others, was rambling on about how weak the league was because it didn't have 20+ 9pt average riders like it did in the late 60's (time period he quoted). A few of us quickly explained that was due to the size of the league, the heat format and the fact bonus pts were included in the averages. Of course, rather than learning something they continue to argue and came out with a classic....

 

"Are you seriously telling me that if 20 Tony Rickardsson level riders were in British Speedway now they wouldn't all have 9+ averages, lol!"

 

I replied that I am categorically 100% stating that would be the case and explained how often they would be racing against each other. The response? A block and he left the group.

 

It's staggering just how some refuse to learn.

For some Folk - Maths/Arithmatic is not their forté.

 

I have a basic understanding of Maths, however, nowadays it bores me. I only need to use it to get through life, household accounts and things like that.

 

I have read with a certain interest, the Posts on this Thread, and it is obvious to me that a few people on here are Statistic Fanatics. There is nothing wrong with that at all, but if Speedway wants to attract younger Supporters it needs to simplify the mathematics/statistics.

 

That's my opinion anyway.

[Humphrey Appleby]

There is nothing wrong with that at all, but if Speedway wants to attract younger Supporters it needs to simplify the mathematics/statistics.

 

 

Why do you think young people aren't interested in mathematics and statistics? I can honestly say that the mathematical aspects of the sport were part of the original attraction for me.

 

What's discouraging people is the archaic image of the sport, whether it's actually a correct perception or not.

[SCB]

 

Why do you think young people aren't interested in mathematics and statistics? I can honestly say that the mathematical aspects of the sport were part of the original attraction for me.

 

What's discouraging people is the archaic image of the sport, whether it's actually a correct perception or not.

Same here. I used to love trying to build teams within a limit, work out what changes could be made and also working out riders averages.

 

 

 

If people cant do maths thats fine, but stop trying. Thy need to learn that the point limit is NOT connected to the points available in a meeting. Maybe the solution is to not multiple averages by 4 and have a points limit of about 10. People wont get so confused then.

[BWitcher]

For some Folk - Maths/Arithmatic is not their forté.

 

I have a basic understanding of Maths, however, nowadays it bores me. I only need to use it to get through life, household accounts and things like that.

 

I have read with a certain interest, the Posts on this Thread, and it is obvious to me that a few people on here are Statistic Fanatics. There is nothing wrong with that at all, but if Speedway wants to attract younger Supporters it needs to simplify the mathematics/statistics.

 

That's my opinion anyway.

 

Absolutely nothing to do with being good at Maths or not. It's perfectly understandable to assume some of the things they do, such as 45 should be the pts limit because there 90pts in a match etc.. However, once it's explained in a pretty basic fashion some folk are just too pig ignorant to listen.

 

As for 'statistics'.. seriously? It's quite the opposite I would say. Younger sports fans are obsessed with statistics and it is an area that the sport is failing in massively.

 

Every sport out there, there are apps crammed full of stats.

 

Speedway is lagging way behind in that area and it is one area they could do far more in.

[Grand Central]

For some Folk - Maths/Arithmatic is not their forté.

 

I have a basic understanding of Maths, however, nowadays it bores me. I only need to use it to get through life, household accounts and things like that.

 

I have read with a certain interest, the Posts on this Thread, and it is obvious to me that a few people on here are Statistic Fanatics. There is nothing wrong with that at all, but if Speedway wants to attract younger Supporters it needs to simplify the mathematics/statistics.

 

That's my opinion anyway.

And what a bizarre opinion it is in that case.

 

Maths is not some alien concept that would be of no interest to youngsters.

Why would you think it was?

Just because it's not for you ?

 

The maths involved in Speedway can be fascinating and entertaining.

Why remove something that could be a draw for youngsters if deployed properly.

For me it has always been an essential part and it gave me hours of interest in my younger years.

 

Our future, especially post Brexit, will depend on the next generations being enthused by sujects like Maths. And to putting that knowledge into practice.

 

Please stop judging people, and especially the youth, by your own very low standards.

Edited November 26, 2017 by Grand Central

[The White Knight]

 

Absolutely nothing to do with being good at Maths or not. It's perfectly understandable to assume some of the things they do, such as 45 should be the pts limit because there 90pts in a match etc.. However, once it's explained in a pretty basic fashion some folk are just too pig ignorant to listen.

 

As for 'statistics'.. seriously? It's quite the opposite I would say. Younger sports fans are obsessed with statistics and it is an area that the sport is failing in massively.

 

Every sport out there, there are apps crammed full of stats.

 

Speedway is lagging way behind in that area and it is one area they could do far more in.

OK - so I'm wrong.

 

The current System isn't exactly dragging newcomers in to watch the Sport is it.

 

On this issue I am ambivalent. I used to enjoy plaing around with figures. I can't be bothered these days.

 

Just my view, that's all - not bothered one way or the other personally.

And what a bizarre opinion it is in that case.

 

Maths is not some alien concept that would be of no interest to youngsters.

Why would you think it was?

Just because it's not for you ?

 

The maths involved in Speedway can be fascinating and entertaining.

Why remove something that could be a draw for youngsters if deployed properly.

For me it has always been an essential part and it gave me hours of interest in my younger years.

 

Our future, especially post Brexit, will depend on the next generations being enthused by sujects like Maths. And to putting that knowledge into practice.

 

Please stop judging people, and especially the youth, by your own very low standards.

Oh - for Pete's sake. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

 

I thought this was a discussion Forum.

[Grand Central]

OK - so I'm wrong.

 

The current System isn't exactly dragging newcomers in to watch the Sport is it.

 

On this issue I am ambivalent. I used to enjoy plaing around with figures. I can't be bothered these days.

 

Just my view, that's all - not bothered one way or the other personally.

Then why the hell are you cluttering up threads if you don't give a toss ?

 

That is just perverse.

[The White Knight]

Then why the hell are you cluttering up threads if you don't give a toss ?

 

That is just perverse.

No - I'm just passing an opinion, that is what the Forum is for - isn't it?.

 

Not that I expect someone like you to understand that.

 

At least, most of the time I can be civil with folk - even if I don't agree with them. Unlike your good self it would appear.

[enotian]

 

As for 'statistics'.. seriously? It's quite the opposite I would say. Younger sports fans are obsessed with statistics and it is an area that the sport is failing in massively.

 

Every sport out there, there are apps crammed full of stats.

 

Speedway is lagging way behind in that area and it is one area they could do far more in.

 

Totally agree. Look at the big franchise sports of American Football, Baseball, Basketball, Ice Hockey all crammed full of stats which really add something to the commentary. Cricket being a fine British example to the point where TMS have a resident statistician to point out key milestones. All of which are fairly simplistic averages and rankings adding interest even when the action is lacking.

Football doesn't readily lend itself to such statistical analysis but look at the OPTA stats a commentators dream. John Motson is lorded for use of stats.

I'm sure it would add colour to speedway if the announcers/presenters/commentators could quote the latest statistics such as a riders average from gate 4 or who has the most points in the league from heat 10. There are numerous possibilities which I'm sure would be collated if a betting company were invited to collaborate. Could even lead to sponsorship opportunities with prize money for riders heading various categories. Just who was the best rider from gate 1 in 2017?? Not essential to the plot but interesting to know.

All the best things in life have layers. For some people watching 4 bikes racing around an oval is enough, others like to keep score, some like to know the stats to aid predictions, some like the mechanical/technical aspects and some even enjoy knowing about the personal lives of the competitors. If people enjoy it it's all good.

 

 

PS round to zero decimal places for team building so it's far easier to make replacements without being constrained because a rider is 0.05 over the rider they're replacing or restricting team building because the total exceeds the limit by a fraction. I recall in the 80's Eastbourne not being allowed to track the team they wanted because their total came to something like 0.01 over the limit. As such I think someone like Darren Standing was forced out of the team on that basis. Nonsensical.

[BWitcher]

 

Totally agree. Look at the big franchise sports of American Football, Baseball, Basketball, Ice Hockey all crammed full of stats which really add something to the commentary. Cricket being a fine British example to the point where TMS have a resident statistician to point out key milestones. All of which are fairly simplistic averages and rankings adding interest even when the action is lacking.

Football doesn't readily lend itself to such statistical analysis but look at the OPTA stats a commentators dream. John Motson is lorded for use of stats.

I'm sure it would add colour to speedway if the announcers/presenters/commentators could quote the latest statistics such as a riders average from gate 4 or who has the most points in the league from heat 10. There are numerous possibilities which I'm sure would be collated if a betting company were invited to collaborate. Could even lead to sponsorship opportunities with prize money for riders heading various categories. Just who was the best rider from gate 1 in 2017?? Not essential to the plot but interesting to know.

All the best things in life have layers. For some people watching 4 bikes racing around an oval is enough, others like to keep score, some like to know the stats to aid predictions, some like the mechanical/technical aspects and some even enjoy knowing about the personal lives of the competitors. If people enjoy it it's all good.

 

 

PS round to zero decimal places for team building so it's far easier to make replacements without being constrained because a rider is 0.05 over the rider they're replacing or restricting team building because the total exceeds the limit by a fraction. I recall in the 80's Eastbourne not being allowed to track the team they wanted because their total came to something like 0.01 over the limit. As such I think someone like Darren Standing was forced out of the team on that basis. Nonsensical.

 

100% spot on.

 

Statistics and 'data' play a much larger part in football now than you give credit for though, especially on the management side of things where everything is analysed to the nth degree.

 

Again, this is an area where speedway lags behind. You mention about riders and their average from certain gates, I've done such an analysis myself as you may have seen me mention previously on this forum. Nicolai Klindt over his spell riding for Wolves averaged over 8 from gates 3 and 4 and under 4 from the inside gates at Monmore Green. That's a massively significant difference and a clued up team manager racing at Monmore with Klindt at reserve (or any other rider with such a split) could gain a significant advantage.

 

However, try mentioning it and most in the sport think you are just talking nonsense. You can guarantee it would be capitalised on in almost any other sport.