Tactical Substitutes Question?

[steve roberts]

 

Quite a regular thing, especially after the move to 15 heats.

 

Cradley in the Hancock Hamill days could be 10pts down going into Heat 13.. 5-1.. double tac sub 5-1 and then 5-1 again. Match won.

...without checking but there was a time that heat 14 was a second reserves race therefore T/S riders were not permitted but there have been many different race formulae down the years it's difficult remembering the details...what with nominated races etc!

[moxey63]

 

Only one tac sub per meeting? Ridiculous, why bother then?

 

 

 

That is a complete waste of time. Can be used only once? What is the point? I thought the promoters were starting to listen. Smoke and mirrors sort of rule change.

 

This change appears to be good, but it's simply a Gotta-save-the-pennies motive. Get rid of the expensive nominated rides' heat and do the thing properly, if it's cash that's the problem.

Edited November 22, 2017 by moxey63

[Grachan]

 

That is a complete waste of time. Can be used only once? What is the point? I thought the promoters were starting to listen. Smoke and mirrors sort of rule change.

 

This change appears to be good, but it's simply a Gotta-save-the-pennies motive. Get rid of the expensive nominated rides' heat and do the thing properly, if it's cash that's the problem.

 

Sure, it won't have the tactical intricacies that it used to have, but better than the Tactical Ride surely? At least points scored on the track stay consistent.

 

A lot of team managers just stuck their best rider out anyway when a TS opportunity came up so it probably won't make much difference.

[Tsunami]

 

That is a complete waste of time. Can be used only once? What is the point? I thought the promoters were starting to listen. Smoke and mirrors sort of rule change.

 

This change appears to be good, but it's simply a Gotta-save-the-pennies motive. Get rid of the expensive nominated rides' heat and do the thing properly, if it's cash that's the problem.

So it appears to be good wanted by the fans, but Promoters just saving pennies, whilst asking for them to drop Heat 15 which if they did they would be slated for cheapening the product. You don't talk much sense do you. About as must as most non attendees.

[moxey63]

So it appears to be good wanted by the fans, but Promoters just saving pennies, whilst asking for them to drop Heat 15 which if they did they would be slated for cheapening the product. You don't talk much sense do you. About as must as most non attendees.

 

I am guessing the one tac sub ride and the cost of sending that one rider to the tapes is reason why the promoters are allowing it just the once. Most fans I expect would like to see the tac sub an option as long as a team is 6 in arrears. But money is the problem. So, just saying, usually the top earners come to the tapes for heat 15, so just cut that and the money that is saved, we can pretend to have a proper sport that exists on penny pinching moves. The tac sub, say three times a match, would entertain longer than the one nominated heat. Just saying, that all matey.

 

I am a non-attender... and scratch my head that people still attend, to be honest, especially after gimmicks like the new tac sub rule. Perhaps they could have a on-the-night terrace Go-Fund-Me sort of app, so teams can afford to send out more tac subs. May get young fans interested. Could even have a poll, see what rider the Go-Fund-Me people wish to bring in. Good idea that, I think.

 

 

Edited November 22, 2017 by moxey63

[Tsunami]

 

I am guessing the one tac sub ride and the cost of sending that one rider to the tapes is reason why the promoters are allowing it just the once. Most fans I expect would like to see the tac sub an option as long as a team is 6 in arrears. But money is the problem. So, just saying, usually the top earners come to the tapes for heat 15, so just cut that and the money that is saved, we can pretend to have a proper sport that exists on penny pinching moves. The tac sub, say three times a match, would entertain longer than the one nominated heat. Just saying, that all matey.

 

I am a non-attender... and scratch my head that people still attend, to be honest, especially after gimmicks like the new tac sub rule. Perhaps they could have a on-the-night terrace Go-Fund-Me sort of app, so teams can afford to send out more tac subs. May get young fans interested. Could even have a poll, see what rider the Go-Fund-Me people wish to bring in. Good idea that, I think.

 

 

You think, and have said, you wouldn't attend live speedway anymore even if they gave you a lifetime free pass, and all because when the Speedway Mail closed you were then asked to pay to get into BV.

Some real supporter you are, and best ignored.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Tsunami

[moxey63]

You think, and have said, you wouldn't attend live speedway anymore even if they gave you a lifetime free pass, and all because when the Speedway Mail closed you were then asked to pay to get into BV.

Some real supporter you are, and best ignored.

 

Speedway Mail? Free pass? Sorry you have me mistaken for someone else.

 

And while I'm at it, my paying for SKY TV since 1999 has helped keep your track alive and therefore gives you somewhere to harbour once a week. I may not attend anymore, but my generosity allows others to retain their programme-filling habit. Think of me, next time to patiently await the time for the last heat.

 

So let's move on.

 

But before we do, the person who started this myth about a free pass being withdrawn, the track photographer at Belle Vue, ex-programme editor (ah ah) has now regained his love for the sport and now attends regularly. Though he was quick to smear my name about being tight and not paying to attend to watch speedway, he only fell out of love with the sport because his freebie went astray. The freebie returned, dah dah, so has his love for the sport. It's like magic...

Edited November 22, 2017 by moxey63

[a4poster]

So in theory if you can only use the TS once it is is worse than double-points and potentially have a far less impact on a meeting what we previously had.

 

I think the idea of double points was fine but the implemention was poor - "using the joker card" demeaned the sport a great deal and to the broader non-speedway going public only enhanced there view of the sport. On the other side of the coin how often has an 8-1 rejuvenated a meeting?

 

Why not allow the Team Manager to use it as often as they like (maximum 1TS ride per rider) providing there side is x number of points down between heats 5 - 14 with the exception of the reserve races - reserves would still have to take a minimum of 3 rides - thus making them really earn there corn.

Edited November 22, 2017 by a4poster

[The White Knight]

So it appears to be good wanted by the fans, but Promoters just saving pennies, whilst asking for them to drop Heat 15 which if they did they would be slated for cheapening the product. You don't talk much sense do you. About as must as most non attendees.

Wanted by me. :party:

 

So in theory if you can only use the TS once it is is worse than double-points and potentially have a far less impact on a meeting what we previously had.

 

I think the idea of double points was fine but the implemention was poor - "using the joker card" demeaned the sport a great deal and to the broader non-speedway going public only enhanced there view of the sport. On the other side of the coin how often has an 8-1 rejuvenated a meeting?

 

Why not allow the Team Manager to use it as often as they like (maximum 1TS ride per rider) providing there side is x number of points down between heats 5 - 14 with the exception of the reserve races - reserves would still have to take a minimum of 3 rides - thus making them really earn there corn.

Use it more than once and I would be off again. :mad:

[Grachan]

So in theory if you can only use the TS once it is is worse than double-points and potentially have a far less impact on a meeting what we previously had.

 

I think the idea of double points was fine but the implemention was poor - "using the joker card" demeaned the sport a great deal and to the broader non-speedway going public only enhanced there view of the sport. On the other side of the coin how often has an 8-1 rejuvenated a meeting?

 

Why not allow the Team Manager to use it as often as they like (maximum 1TS ride per rider) providing there side is x number of points down between heats 5 - 14 with the exception of the reserve races - reserves would still have to take a minimum of 3 rides - thus making them really earn there corn.

It could also potentially have more effect if getting a 5-1 out of what could have been a 3-3. Much better than the TR. Points scored on the track are the points scored for the team.

 

No more having to explain why someone can get double points with the phrase 'because they have stupid rules'.

 

May not be the ts of old but it is a good change.

[Tsunami]

 

Speedway Mail? Free pass? Sorry you have me mistaken for someone else.

 

And while I'm at it, my paying for SKY TV since 1999 has helped keep your track alive and therefore gives you somewhere to harbour once a week. I may not attend anymore, but my generosity allows others to retain their programme-filling habit. Think of me, next time to patiently await the time for the last heat.

 

So let's move on.

 

But before we do, the person who started this myth about a free pass being withdrawn, the track photographer at Belle Vue, ex-programme editor (ah ah) has now regained his love for the sport and now attends regularly. Though he was quick to smear my name about being tight and not paying to attend to watch speedway, he only fell out of love with the sport because his freebie went astray. The freebie returned, dah dah, so has his love for the sport. It's like magic...

Funny that. In many previous discussions about speedway attendance, I have regularly put those facts to you, and never once have you denied that you stopped going when you were asked to pay. You also DID say that you would not go to BV even if they gave you a free pass for life, and we discussed it and you stated you preferred to watch it on TV, and were perfectly in a position to express your opinion still on Speedway even if you chose to not attend.

 

Nurse Nurse.

[moxey63]

Funny that. In many previous discussions about speedway attendance, I have regularly put those facts to you, and never once have you denied that you stopped going when you were asked to pay. You also DID say that you would not go to BV even if they gave you a free pass for life, and we discussed it and you stated you preferred to watch it on TV, and were perfectly in a position to express your opinion still on Speedway even if you chose to not attend.

 

Nurse Nurse.

 

Others don't want to read this bickering. So what... I didn't pay, there you are. But the worrying thing was, I stopped going at the time the free pass was still there. One of the reasons was the ridding of the tac sub for the Golden Double.

 

I thought the promoters were trying to entice back people like me, who no longer attend, but the one-time TS rule is a wet cloth. Speedway is on its rear, in fact there are many now who still keep in touch but don't attend.

 

I had no association with Speedway Mail... but did use to get in for "free" to Belle Vue... but in turn I used to contribute to the programme, so, unless you believe in free-labour, i suppose the least I could do was take a freebie. It didn't cost BV anything...

 

Thing is, before I started getting the freebie, I used to pay... with pleasure. Speedway 1990-style was more appealing. But how my views have changed. I wouldn't go now, even with the "freebie." It's on in the background every week, on telly, and I never watch it... so you can't say i stopped going because I had no "freebie."

Edited November 22, 2017 by moxey63

[Tsunami]

 

Others don't want to read this bickering. So what... I didn't pay, there you are. But the worrying thing was, I stopped going at the time the free pass was still there. One of the reasons was the ridding of the tac sub for the Golden Double.

 

I thought the promoters were trying to entice back people like me, who no longer attend, but the one-time TS rule is a wet cloth. Speedway is on its rear, in fact there are many now who still keep in touch but don't attend.

 

I had no association with Speedway Mail... but did use to get in for "free" to Belle Vue... but in turn I used to contribute to the programme, so, unless you believe in free-labour, i suppose the least I could do was take a freebie. It didn't cost BV anything...

 

Thing is, before I started getting the freebie, I used to pay... with pleasure. Speedway 1990-style was more appealing. But how my views have changed. I wouldn't go now, even with the "freebie." It's on in the background every week, on telly, and I never watch it... so you can't say i stopped going because I had no "freebie."

So substitute Programme for Speedway Mail and everything you said was untrue was true so a complete lie by you. You tried a bluff but you now admit you lied. Many Thanks.

[BWitcher]

 

 

Thing is, before I started getting the freebie, I used to pay... with pleasure. Speedway 1990-style was more appealing. But how my views have changed. I wouldn't go now, even with the "freebie." It's on in the background every week, on telly, and I never watch it... so you can't say i stopped going because I had no "freebie."

 

So you wouldn't go if it was free.

 

You don't watch it on TV.

 

Yet you feel you can offer opinions on the current product. Hilarious.

[ColinMills]

If I remember you could have as many T/S as long as you were six points behind and you also had choice of gates.

 

You could even have a double T/S if you so wished in a particular heat.

that's correct, shame its not fully returned, and yes gate positions were more flexible, a manager had way more options in those days

[cityrebel]

...remember 'The Cheetahs' being eight down with three/four heats remaining and winning both matches away at Wimbledon and King's Lynn during the 1984 season...great stuff! The win at King's Lynn particularly got up the nose of Lynn promoter Martin Rogers I recall!

and Wimbledon returned the favour by winning at Cowley 24 hours later! Edited November 23, 2017 by cityrebel

[moxey63]

 

So you wouldn't go if it was free.

 

You don't watch it on TV.

 

Yet you feel you can offer opinions on the current product. Hilarious.

 

Hilarious? No, not really. Just a former fan who wants a sport he once loved to claw itself back into being something of a serious sport. I cling on for a bit of sense, thought the reintroduction of the tac sub was the start, only to discover it is to be used the once per match. Speedway has always had its quirky side, and I accepted that. But come on... riders donning everyone else's colours to help form some sort of team, in every league on earth. Sides massaging their scoring ability to gain a better chance of winning the X-Factor Play-Off. Speedway is a team sport. When I feel I can support a team that is my team (all my riders), that team will get my support. It took 13 years for promoters, who we allow to run the asylum, to realise the double points thing made the sport look a joke.

 

Therefore, at the moment, I wouldn't go for free (or complimentary, as it was called); I won't watch on TV, as the sport is too messed up and not a very serious product, and my opinions are offered out of frustration, hoping one day the sport will return to what I see as a serious offering.

 

The promoters just had a bish-bash-bang gathering to thrash out ideas. They know they need to placate fans, the few that still turn up, but want to attract more. At the moment they haven't persuaded this one. But I'll wait in hope.

 

I don't know what the disagreement is about with other posters on here. I know speedway can be a great sport... but it has allowed itself, or those who run it have, to wander away from a serious sport.

 

A good promoter or business must be trying to win me, an old customer, back. The ones who still attend... they'll put up with anything and can be given any old tosh! There are others like me, ex-attendees who keep in touch. I am still looking in the shop window but won't enter it.Once they start selling something I like, you may hear the sound of the shop doorbell. Promoters should worry about those who no longer pass by the shop.

So substitute Programme for Speedway Mail and everything you said was untrue was true so a complete lie by you. You tried a bluff but you now admit you lied. Many Thanks.

 

You're good... will you be my solicitor?

Edited November 23, 2017 by moxey63

[Hacksaw Jim Duggan]

 

Others don't want to read this bickering

 

No...they don't - so piss off

 

You don't follow the sport - no one actually cares what you have to say, another one of the dullards who think going to speedway 20 years ago makes them relevant - it doesn't - no one gives a sh*t what you have to say about speedway

 

p.s don't bother replying, don't bother with lengthy verbiage - I really don't care, in fact if you reply it only confirms what a twit you are.

Edited November 23, 2017 by Hacksaw Jim Duggan

[moxey63]

 

No...they don't - so piss off

 

You don't follow the sport - no one actually cares what you have to say, another one of the dullards who think going to speedway 20 years ago makes them relevant - it doesn't - no one gives a sh*t what you have to say about speedway

 

p.s don't bother replying, don't bother with lengthy verbiage - I really don't care, in fact if you reply it only confirms what a twit you are.

How come you say the full word "piss" but use an asterik in "shi*t"?

 

You had me laughing there Hacksaw Jim....

 

Just surprised you had to edit such a short piece.

[Grachan]

 

Hilarious? No, not really. Just a former fan who wants a sport he once loved to claw itself back into being something of a serious sport. I cling on for a bit of sense, thought the reintroduction of the tac sub was the start, only to discover it is to be used the once per match. Speedway has always had its quirky side, and I accepted that. But come on... riders donning everyone else's colours to help form some sort of team, in every league on earth. Sides massaging their scoring ability to gain a better chance of winning the X-Factor Play-Off. Speedway is a team sport. When I feel I can support a team that is my team (all my riders), that team will get my support. It took 13 years for promoters, who we allow to run the asylum, to realise the double points thing made the sport look a joke.

 

Therefore, at the moment, I wouldn't go for free (or complimentary, as it was called); I won't watch on TV, as the sport is too messed up and not a very serious product, and my opinions are offered out of frustration, hoping one day the sport will return to what I see as a serious offering.

 

The promoters just had a bish-bash-bang gathering to thrash out ideas. They know they need to placate fans, the few that still turn up, but want to attract more. At the moment they haven't persuaded this one. But I'll wait in hope.

 

I don't know what the disagreement is about with other posters on here. I know speedway can be a great sport... but it has allowed itself, or those who run it have, to wander away from a serious sport.

 

A good promoter or business must be trying to win me, an old customer, back. The ones who still attend... they'll put up with anything and can be given any old tosh! There are others like me, ex-attendees who keep in touch. I am still looking in the shop window but won't enter it.Once they start selling something I like, you may hear the sound of the shop doorbell. Promoters should worry about those who no longer pass by the shop.

 

You're good... will you be my solicitor?

 

What, exactly, is your problem with only having one TS per match? It may not be the TS of old, but I see nothing in this introduction that makes it a non-serious sport (unlike the TR).