Speedway ... A Way Forward

[MattK]

OK, I appreciate that this will come across as quite negative, but I thought I’d post it anyway!

 

The main problem I have with most of these "blue print" type posts I read on here and indeed published above, is that they do not lay out the problems they are trying to solve, before launching into a vast array of changes.

 

For example, averages are one of the few things speedway does well - when it doesn't fiddle with them. They are mathematically pure and are the best indication of a rider’s ability. This article doesn't describe the problems it is trying to solve, before proposing multiple complex and perplexing changes to how averages are calculated and used for teambuilding.

 

Rounding up to the nearest 0.5 is a terrible idea and will have the opposite effect to what the author is suggesting. For example, he states "a rider is deemed 'too good' to fit into a team because his average is 4.02, not 4.00

 

I don't see how rounding up an average to the nearest 0.5 helps. For example, a rider with an average of 3.76 will be rounded up to 4.0 which could potentially put him out of a ride.

 

The author also suggests that it would "remove instances of a single engine failure could be the difference" - when in fact it exacerbates the problem, as in my example above, a 3.76 rider who suffers one engine failure and sees his average drop to 3.74, would be rounded DOWN to 3.5 - a huge difference in terms of teambuilding for the sake of a single ride.

 

I don't like the idea of riders having a consistent average over the course of the season, as this penalises teams who sign improving riders and then have to "weaken" if they ever need to bring in a replacement. Again, I don't understand what problem this change is looking to solve.

 

I don't like the "single average". Just say no to multipliers kids. Look at the absolute s**tstorm which resulted this year. Why would we want to replicate this? Riders perform differently in different leagues, I don’t have a problem with that.

 

The August 31st cut off is an interesting idea, but is there really a problem with average manipulation at the end of the season?

 

I like the idea of assessing averages based on scores in foreign leagues. I'm sure that rings a bell somewhere. Although, however it is done needs to be transparent.

 

I am deeply ambivalent on the tactic ride.

 

The suggestion of one big league doesn't address any of the concerns that was usually raised when one big league is suggested, namely halving the number of meetings for most riders who currently double-up, the huge disparity in quality of the riders and how teams with smaller payrolls will be able to field a competitive side.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of one big league, it just feels right with only 18 teams. However, there are insurmountable issues in its implementation, which no one has yet managed to suggest workable solutions to.

 

[Grachan]

I'm loving the convoluted "simpler" average system

 

So he proposes rounding averages to the nearest 0.5 of a point. I give you Rider A averages 4.25 and rider B averages 4.74, which one are you going to sign on a 4.5 average? The one nearly 0.5 higher. So you do that 7 times and you have gained 3.5 points. Thats 3.5 points more for you, and 3.5 less for the opposition (every point you score in speedway is one less for the opposition) meaning a 7 point difference before the meeting has ever started and allowing for form.

 

And then the silly bugger suggests that the conversion between leagues should be 1.2 and 0.8. ARGH. Just make it 0.8 and multiple one way and dive the other. Jesus wept! The maths on that one is so wrong it's scary! To prove my points, take a number, add on 100% then remove 100% and how much do you have? It's NOT what you started with, it's nothing. averages/ratios/percentages are relative values.

 

THERES NOTHING WRONG WITH AVERAGES!

 

FFS.

 

 

To put it another way. Take an 8 point rider in the second division.

 

8 x 1.2 = 9.60

 

Take a 9.60 rider in the first division.

 

9.6 x 0.8 = 7.68.

 

However, using his rounding up system, a 7.68 rider would then be rounded up to 8.00 and 9.60 average rider would be rounded up to 10, 10 x 0.8 = 8.00.

 

So maybe he is thinking it in those terms.

[SCB]

The main problem I have with most of these "blue print" type posts I read on here and indeed published above, is that they do not lay out the problems they are trying to solve, before launching into a vast array of changes.

BOOM! Got it in one.

 

First you need to list the 10 things speedway does right and the 10 things it does wrong (it might end up being 5 or 15 if thats what you come up with but aim for 10) then fix the wrong things without breaking the good stuff. This guy appears to have just thrown a load of ideas into a hat to fix a problem that doesn't exist and in doing so has made things worse!

 

95% of what needs changing isn't the rules. It's the implementation of the rules and the whole running of a show on race night.

 

 

To put it another way. Take an 8 point rider in the second division.

 

8 x 1.2 = 9.60

 

Take a 9.60 rider in the first division.

 

9.6 x 0.8 = 7.68.

 

However, using his rounding up system, a 7.68 rider would then be rounded up to 8.00 and 9.60 average rider would be rounded up to 10, 10 x 0.8 = 8.00.

 

So maybe he is thinking it in those terms.

Still mathematically wrong and certainly not "simpler" as claimed, it has an extra step in it, how does adding steps make it simpler?!

Edited November 16, 2017 by SCB

[WalterPlinge]

I'm loving the convoluted "simpler" average system

 

So he proposes rounding averages to the nearest 0.5 of a point. I give you Rider A averages 4.25 and rider B averages 4.74, which one are you going to sign on a 4.5 average? The one nearly 0.5 higher. So you do that 7 times and you have gained 3.5 points. Thats 3.5 points more for you, and 3.5 less for the opposition (every point you score in speedway is one less for the opposition) meaning a 7 point difference before the meeting has ever started and allowing for form.

 

And then the silly bugger suggests that the conversion between leagues should be 1.2 and 0.8. ARGH. Just make it 0.8 and multiple one way and dive the other. Jesus wept! The maths on that one is so wrong it's scary! To prove my points, take a number, add on 100% then remove 100% and how much do you have? It's NOT what you started with, it's nothing. averages/ratios/percentages are relative values.

 

THERES NOTHING WRONG WITH AVERAGES!

 

FFS.

Spot on.

 

People suggesting grading systems are idiots. What possible benefit do they think they gain from 0.5 point grades?

SCB has perfectly explained how stupid this is with his example of the 4.25 rider and the 4.74 rider.... which do you sign on a 4.50 grade? obviously the 4.74.

And why would you unfairly treat them both as 4.50 when we already have a sensible system which treats them as 4.25 and 4.74 thereby taking into account the difference in their ability?

 

And if the conversion between leagues is 0.8 one way, then it is 1.25 the other way. (not 1.20). This isn't even opinion. It's mathematical fact. Anyone with a primary school education knows what a reciprocal is surely?

[Vincent Blachshadow]

Fixed race nights are what all the other countries have had for years and at least two are successful so .........

 

But when any team wanted to enter those leagues they knew when they would be racing - if you can't use the stadium on Sunday/Tuesday then sorry, you can't join. That was never the case here and imposing that now may not work and could even be detrimental to the sport in GB.

[waytogo28]

We don't have long to wait to hear of The Way Forward and I wonder what we will think of the BSPA's latest plan after we have had a season of it? Crystal Ball. Must be the Last Chance Saloon?

[cityrebel]

How many last chance saloons does british speedway want!

[Grachan]

Here's an example of why this guy's average theory doesn't work.

 

A second division rider has an average of 4.51. This times 1.2 comes to 5.412.

 

Rounded up, 4.51 comes to 5. And 5.412 rounded down also comes to 5.

 

So he has an identical average in both leagues.

Edited November 16, 2017 by grachan

[SharpenRake]

Here's an example of why this guy's average theory doesn't work.

 

A second division rider has an average of 4.51. This times 1.2 comes to 5.412.

 

Rounded up, 4.51 comes to 5. And 5.412 rounded down also comes to 5.

 

So he has an identical average in both leagues.

I could be wrong but think a 4.51 premier average would be rounded to 4.5 and the 5.421 would be 5.5

[Grachan]

I could be wrong but think a 4.51 premier average would be rounded to 4.5 and the 5.421 would be 5.5

 

Good point.

[moxey63]

We don't have long to wait to hear of The Way Forward and I wonder what we will think of the BSPA's latest plan after we have had a season of it? Crystal Ball. Must be the Last Chance Saloon?

 

 

The lure of speedway will always be the spectacle. But equally as important must be the rules. Set race nights may or may not work, I doubt they will. But they will be harder to implement, surely, than a proper promotion and relegation system, which promoters have ran away from for decades. Surely a better system than the Play-offs.

[TheReturn]

Is moving to a fixed race night the answer? Maybe, but I hope it's done for the right reasons, for the good of British speedway, not for the benefit of mercenary overseas riders who have used and abused British speedway for the last few years.

Will fixed race night attract more fans? That is the real question, and to be fair we may not know until we try it.

 

​But something that seems to get overlooked is 'fixing the product'... what I mean by that is when the ingredients all mix well, our sport is fantastic, great thrilling action and mixed with team rivalry can be good as any other sport. But sometimes the product isn't right, long drawn out meetings, crap racing (do we need to look at some tracks?), stupid rules, a different 1-7 each week, no real feeling of a 'team', poor atmosphere. Maybe that's an area that needs addressing in addition to fixed race nights.

[moxey63]

Is moving to a fixed race night the answer? Maybe, but I hope it's done for the right reasons, for the good of British speedway, not for the benefit of mercenary overseas riders who have used and abused British speedway for the last few years.

Will fixed race night attract more fans? That is the real question, and to be fair we may not know until we try it.

 

​But something that seems to get overlooked is 'fixing the product'... what I mean by that is when the ingredients all mix well, our sport is fantastic, great thrilling action and mixed with team rivalry can be good as any other sport. But sometimes the product isn't right, long drawn out meetings, crap racing (do we need to look at some tracks?), stupid rules, a different 1-7 each week, no real feeling of a 'team', poor atmosphere. Maybe that's an area that needs addressing in addition to fixed race nights.

 

Fixed race night will, they hope, attract the superstars. Tragic though it is, even when we had superstars to attract crowds were falling. In the 70s and 80s, fans wanted more dirt on the tracks to encourage more passing. So the promoters ignored them fully and decided to increase the race format by a couple of heats.When a rider like Phil Collins became disillusioned with how bare tracks were and quit British racing, you'd think they'd have listened.

[topaz325]

Is moving to a fixed race night the answer? Maybe, but I hope it's done for the right reasons, for the good of British speedway, not for the benefit of mercenary overseas riders who have used and abused British speedway for the last few years.

Will fixed race night attract more fans? That is the real question, and to be fair we may not know until we try it.

 

​But something that seems to get overlooked is 'fixing the product'... what I mean by that is when the ingredients all mix well, our sport is fantastic, great thrilling action and mixed with team rivalry can be good as any other sport. But sometimes the product isn't right, long drawn out meetings, crap racing (do we need to look at some tracks?), stupid rules, a different 1-7 each week, no real feeling of a 'team', poor atmosphere. Maybe that's an area that needs addressing in addition to fixed race nights.

Well said, all well and good introducing fixed race nights but try to get the product right as well!!

[Ghosty]

Is moving to a fixed race night the answer? Maybe, but I hope it's done for the right reasons, for the good of British speedway, not for the benefit of mercenary overseas riders who have used and abused British speedway for the last few years.

Will fixed race night attract more fans? That is the real question, and to be fair we may not know until we try it.

 

​But something that seems to get overlooked is 'fixing the product'... what I mean by that is when the ingredients all mix well, our sport is fantastic, great thrilling action and mixed with team rivalry can be good as any other sport. But sometimes the product isn't right, long drawn out meetings, crap racing (do we need to look at some tracks?), stupid rules, a different 1-7 each week, no real feeling of a 'team', poor atmosphere. Maybe that's an area that needs addressing in addition to fixed race nights.

It's not the fixed race nights alone that will attract the fans, although regular home fixtures are a must.

What SHOULD attract the fans will be a HOME 1 to 7 v a VISITING 1 to 7 something very rare in recent times. Most do not like the idea of fixed race nights but I think it is the only solution for the U.K. Mondays & Wednesdays for 2018 BUT Wednesdays & Thursdays for 2019. Also days should be identified now when rained off fixtures could be run IF NEEDED.

[waytogo28]

 

 

The lure of speedway will always be the spectacle. But equally as important must be the rules. Set race nights may or may not work, I doubt they will. But they will be harder to implement, surely, than a proper promotion and relegation system, which promoters have ran away from for decades. Surely a better system than the Play-offs.

 

Cor Blimey! We saw precious little of that at KLS and the sight of Iversen doing his stuff for several years failed to nail sufficient feet to the Saddlebow Rd terraces and I don't believe it will on fixed nights. Nowhere enough will return unless the on track passing is hugely increased i.e. 50% of heats at least being a true racing spectacle. And with NO TV millions coming ( can't see BT investing much in domestic racing unless it included a gimmick handicap races? ) 4th to 1st wasn't SO rare 10 years ago. But with modern bikes on modern tracks ( with many modern riders attitude " Oh well, I can always make the gate in my next race" ) Bringing back the spectacle is likely to be Mission Impossible.

[moxey63]

 

Cor Blimey! We saw precious little of that at KLS and the sight of Iversen doing his stuff for several years failed to nail sufficient feet to the Saddlebow Rd terraces and I don't believe it will on fixed nights. Nowhere enough will return unless the on track passing is hugely increased i.e. 50% of heats at least being a true racing spectacle. And with NO TV millions coming ( can't see BT investing much in domestic racing unless it included a gimmick handicap races? ) 4th to 1st wasn't SO rare 10 years ago. But with modern bikes on modern tracks ( with many modern riders attitude " Oh well, I can always make the gate in my next race" ) Bringing back the spectacle is likely to be Mission Impossible.

 

Correct!

[brylcream boy]

However you dress it up, it is just not appealing to the younger generation. I would say the average age of most of the crowd is 50 to 65 years old, and when they became hooked there was no computer games, multiple television channels, Internet, etc. It was football, cricket and three tv channels. There is now so many things youngsters can do, most of them I have never heard of, I honestly do not know how you get them interested in going and retaining that interest.

If there was big money to be made, someone like Barry Hearn would have made it the new darts. He has really turned that sport on its head, and all events sell out.

I think most supporters are just glad if their team run next year, and hope to see decent racing every week..

[ch958]

However you dress it up, it is just not appealing to the younger generation. I would say the average age of most of the crowd is 50 to 65 years old, and when they became hooked there was no computer games, multiple television channels, Internet, etc. It was football, cricket and three tv channels. There is now so many things youngsters can do, most of them I have never heard of, I honestly do not know how you get them interested in going and retaining that interest.

If there was big money to be made, someone like Barry Hearn would have made it the new darts. He has really turned that sport on its head, and all events sell out.

I think most supporters are just glad if their team run next year, and hope to see decent racing every week..

 

 

recent reports suggest that young folks are abandoning football too - mainly to do with cost admittedly. Apparently more bet on football than attend.

 

I personally don't want speedway to turn into the circus of inebriation and loutishness that darts is.

[The White Knight]

 

 

recent reports suggest that young folks are abandoning football too - mainly to do with cost admittedly. Apparently more bet on football than attend.

 

I personally don't want speedway to turn into the circus of inebriation and loutishness that darts is.

I totally agree with that.

 

The Speedway experience needs improving in so many ways - but there are limits.