Just A Thought...

[Sidney the robin]

Of course Greaves is a 'wobbler', if you are deeming a wobbler to be someone way below the standard of the top riders in the league.

 

Not entirely sure what Greaves has to do with anything, the British League is an irrelevance in a conversation such as this. Back in the 70's and 80's the British League was the top division. Now it is the Polish division and if you are seriously suggesting the British League standard in the 70's and 80's is higher than the Polish League standard of recent years you've got your head screwed on backwards. There are riders who would have been 9pt heat leaders in the British League in the 70's and 80's who wouldn't get a team in Poland. They've moved on, we haven't.

I can name a number of riders way, way below the standard of the top guys in teams in the 80's. Chris Cobby, Richard Smith, Andy Sumner, Torben Hansen, Peter Schroek, Carl Bodley, Lee Edwards, Ade Hoole, Flemming Pedersen... those are just some for one team, Wolves, that I can recall of the top of my head. Personally I think 'wobblers' is a disparaging term, but they were well, well below the level of the heat leaders of the time and you would never see a rider anywhere close to that standard in the Polish top flight as it is now. A few more I can remember from Cradley include David Haynes, Anthony Boyd, Mark Meredith, Carl Robinson, Lance Sealey... Bradford would have riders such as Phil Disney, Stuart Parnaby, Simon Green, Bryan Larner, Darren Pearson.. I could go on.

As for the Backtrack issue, I'll have to check when I go back to England next and get back to you. Perhaps 'numerous' is OTT but there were certainly two or three interviews I read of that nature and they weren't 'top' guys either who might have had the natural talent. My point is quite simply there is absolutely zero chance of that sort of thing ever happening now. Incidentally, I don't include riders who progressed from grass track in this as they could adapt quite quickly as was shown many times over the years... sadly a source of rider that has pretty much dried up now.

Some of those riders you named rode in the 90s, i believe the 1970/1986 period was a very strong one for British speedway and like yourself i hate the word wobbler it means nothing to me any rider at any level has my full respect.That period for me generally was stronger than it is today the two leagues we have now are CLOSER together than they have ever been.The BL at one time was the best league in the world teams like Ipswich had Louis,Sanders,Davey Belle Vue Mauger, Sjosten, Collins, (1980s Cradley Penhall, Gundersen,Collins,Grahame, (ect) most teams had a in/out no1 and a decent couple of heatleaders.You are right of course there were some weaker riders sometimes to keep within the averages but there is always a place for a trier or a lower class rider who is inconsistent.Personally i believe that period that i named was stronger than it is today mainly because of the TOP CLASS riders now riding in Britain but it is only my OPINION. Edited November 2, 2017 by Sidney the robin

[steve roberts]

 

Of course Greaves is a 'wobbler', if you are deeming a wobbler to be someone way below the standard of the top riders in the league.

 

Not entirely sure what Greaves has to do with anything, the British League is an irrelevance in a conversation such as this. Back in the 70's and 80's the British League was the top division. Now it is the Polish division and if you are seriously suggesting the British League standard in the 70's and 80's is higher than the Polish League standard of recent years you've got your head screwed on backwards. There are riders who would have been 9pt heat leaders in the British League in the 70's and 80's who wouldn't get a team in Poland. They've moved on, we haven't.

 

I can name a number of riders way, way below the standard of the top guys in teams in the 80's. Chris Cobby, Richard Smith, Andy Sumner, Torben Hansen, Peter Schroek, Carl Bodley, Lee Edwards, Ade Hoole, Flemming Pedersen... those are just some for one team, Wolves, that I can recall of the top of my head. Personally I think 'wobblers' is a disparaging term, but they were well, well below the level of the heat leaders of the time and you would never see a rider anywhere close to that standard in the Polish top flight as it is now. A few more I can remember from Cradley include David Haynes, Anthony Boyd, Mark Meredith, Carl Robinson, Lance Sealey... Bradford would have riders such as Phil Disney, Stuart Parnaby, Simon Green, Bryan Larner, Darren Pearson.. I could go on.

 

As for the Backtrack issue, I'll have to check when I go back to England next and get back to you. Perhaps 'numerous' is OTT but there were certainly two or three interviews I read of that nature and they weren't 'top' guys either who might have had the natural talent. My point is quite simply there is absolutely zero chance of that sort of thing ever happening now. Incidentally, I don't include riders who progressed from grass track in this as they could adapt quite quickly as was shown many times over the years... sadly a source of rider that has pretty much dried up now.

I understand what you are implying regarding the Polish League being the strongest in the world today and differing standards but the analogy that some 'nine point' riders from the seventies and eighties (of which the list is both impressive and extensive) would struggle to get a team place is quite absurd. Again some examples of who you'd think would struggle would be useful so that it can be properly debated on it's merits.

 

One has to remember that the BSPA in their wisdom passed legislation that required a team to declare a 'junior' within the team (1986) which ran for a number of seasons in an attempt to promote home grown talent.

Personally I felt that the initiative, although commendable in theory, fell short of what it was trying to achieve and many riders struggled...although, if I remember, the one 'star' to emerge was Sean Wilson at Sheffield.

 

I'll await with interest when you manage to check back numbers of 'Backtrack'...I'm still trawling thru' mine!

Edited November 2, 2017 by steve roberts

[Humphrey Appleby]

Now it is the Polish division and if you are seriously suggesting the British League standard in the 70's and 80's is higher than the Polish League standard of recent years you've got your head screwed on backwards. There are riders who would have been 9pt heat leaders in the British League in the 70's and 80's who wouldn't get a team in Poland. They've moved on, we haven't.

It's comparing Apples and Pears. The BL was comprised of 18-20 teams for much of its existence, whereas there are just 8 in the Polish Ekstraliga.

[steve roberts]

It's comparing Apples and Pears. The BL was comprised of 18-20 teams for much of its existence, whereas there are just 8 in the Polish Ekstraliga.

...I was about to write same but you beat me to it!

Some of those riders you named rode in the 90s, i believe the 1970/1986 period was a very strong one for British speedway and like yourself i hate the word wobbler it means nothing to me any rider at any level has my full respect.That period for me generally was stronger than it is today the two leagues we have now are CLOSER together than they have ever been.The BL at one time was the best league in the world teams like Ipswich had Louis,Sanders,Davey Belle Vue Mauger, Sjosten, Collins, (1980s Cradley Penhall, Gundersen,Collins,Grahame, (ect) most teams had a in/out no1 and a decent couple of heatleaders.You are right of course there were some weaker riders sometimes to keep within the averages but there is always a place for a trier or a lower class rider who is inconsistent.Personally i believe that period that i named was stronger than it is today mainly because of the TOP CLASS riders now riding in Britain but it is only my OPINION.

Some great names there Sid!

 

Quality endues and whatever the era the cream will always rise to the top despite differing bikes/tracks etc as competent motor cyclists adapt whatever the criteria however one could argue that many of todays riders would struggle on less manageable bikes of the past unlike today (to quote Olle Nygren amongst others) where modern bikes are relatively easy to ride...in relative terms.

 

It's always difficult, if nigh impossible, to judge different eras as there are so many factors involved.

Edited November 2, 2017 by steve roberts

[BWitcher]

It's comparing Apples and Pears. The BL was comprised of 18-20 teams for much of its existence, whereas there are just 8 in the Polish Ekstraliga.

 

That is the entire point.

 

An 18-20 team league gives the impression of there being a multitude of top class heat leaders.

I understand what you are implying regarding the Polish League being the strongest in the world today and differing standards but the analogy that some 'nine point' riders from the seventies and eighties (of which the list is both impressive and extensive) would struggle to get a team place is quite absurd. Again some examples of who you'd think would struggle would be useful so that it can be properly debated on it's merits.

 

 

 

Craig Cook is one prime example.

 

 

Some of those riders you named rode in the 90s, i believe the 1970/1986 period was a very strong one for British speedway and like yourself i hate the word wobbler it means nothing to me any rider at any level has my full respect.That period for me generally was stronger than it is today the two leagues we have now are CLOSER together than they have ever been.The BL at one time was the best league in the world teams like Ipswich had Louis,Sanders,Davey Belle Vue Mauger, Sjosten, Collins, (1980s Cradley Penhall, Gundersen,Collins,Grahame, (ect) most teams had a in/out no1 and a decent couple of heatleaders.You are right of course there were some weaker riders sometimes to keep within the averages but there is always a place for a trier or a lower class rider who is inconsistent.Personally i believe that period that i named was stronger than it is today mainly because of the TOP CLASS riders now riding in Britain but it is only my OPINION.

 

Again you are talking about Britain, that's irrelevant on the World Stage.

 

You 'think' the riders were better solely because of the size of the league. The bigger the league, the more higher averaged riders you will have, the more you see them win, the better you think they are. That's simply mathematical fact.

 

In an 18-20 team league, with no Heat 13 or Heat 15 it is again simple maths that teams will have an out and out number 1 and a couple of decent heat leaders.

Edited November 2, 2017 by BWitcher

[foamfence]

 

That is the entire point.

 

An 18-20 team league gives the impression of there being a multitude of top class heat leaders.

No it doesn't, it gives the impression of variety. A different team every week and no doubling-up. It doesn't matter if the big names are there or not, it's still better than seeing the same seven teams twice and having long intervals between meetings.

[BWitcher]

No it doesn't, it gives the impression of variety. A different team every week and no doubling-up. It doesn't matter if the big names are there or not, it's still better than seeing the same seven teams twice and having long intervals between meetings.

 

??

 

Utterly irrelevant to what I have said.

 

I don't dispute any of those things.

 

Indeed having a larger league can be beneficial for the reasons I have mentioned. A larger league creates more 'stars'. It means the top riders meet each other less, lose less, build up a mystique and make you want to see them.. and when they do lose, it's an event. That's how it was in the 70's and why it was so enjoyable I have little doubt.

 

Some seem to think I am knocking that period, of course I'm not.

Edited November 2, 2017 by BWitcher

[iris123]

 

??

 

Utterly irrelevant to what I have said.

 

I don't dispute any of those things.

 

Indeed having a larger league can be beneficial for the reasons I have mentioned. A larger league creates more 'stars'. It means the top riders meet each other less, lose less, build up a mystique and make you want to see them.. and when they do lose, it's an event. That's how it was in the 70's and why it was so enjoyable I have little doubt.

 

Some seem to think I am knocking that period, of course I'm not.

I agree with you

 

Imo the Danish Superleague with 5 man teams is much poorer in terms of suspense and build up.The top rider in each team face each other 3 times,it might be more and most of the time it isn't a ding dong battle with riders swapping places every race.Generally i have seen Nicki have the better of Bjerre or Walasek or whoever else,and that in each heat.Same mostly goes for the second best riders when they meet up or the reserves.One in each position normally has the advantage over his opposite number.

 

In the 70s it was great to see those heats when the no.1s or no.3s met up.You did tend to get meetings where riders would only drop a point or two to the oppo and like you say it created a feel as if most teams had 2 maybe 3 and sometimes 4 'real' stars

[Sidney the robin]

That is the entire point.

 

An 18-20 team league gives the impression of there being a multitude of top class heat leaders.

 

 

Craig Cook is one prime example.

 

 

 

 

Again you are talking about Britain, that's irrelevant on the World Stage.

 

You 'think' the riders were better solely because of the size of the league. The bigger the league, the more higher averaged riders you will have, the more you see them win, the better you think they are. That's simply mathematical fact.

 

In an 18-20 team league, with no Heat 13 or Heat 15 it is again simple maths that teams will have an out and out number 1 and a couple of decent heat leaders.

 

1970/78 heat leaders i will miss some Betts,Kilby,Mauger,Briggs,Michanek,Lovaas,Persson,Eide,Davey,Sanders,Louis,Boocock 2) Collins,Sjosten,Jansson2) Wilson 2) Younghusband,Loftqvist,Wyer,Haley,Thomas,Morton2) Middleton, Moore, Olsen, Simmons,Jessup,Davis,Lee, Airey,Autrey. Pusey ,Ashby, Mcmillan,Beaton i have missed endless other riders out to.That was the level i remember not to bad for wobblers 😜 this year lets be honest the top class riders in Britain were Doyle/Freddie that was it then the next level are the likes of Cook,Thorssell,Fricke,Morris (ect)As i said before the two leagues now are closer than ever would i would pick the 1970/86 era over now i would all day long. Edited November 2, 2017 by Sidney the robin

[steve roberts]

 

??

 

Utterly irrelevant to what I have said.

 

I don't dispute any of those things.

 

Indeed having a larger league can be beneficial for the reasons I have mentioned. A larger league creates more 'stars'. It means the top riders meet each other less, lose less, build up a mystique and make you want to see them.. and when they do lose, it's an event. That's how it was in the 70's and why it was so enjoyable I have little doubt.

 

Some seem to think I am knocking that period, of course I'm not.

...to that I agree!

1970/78 heat leaders i will miss some Betts,Kilby,Mauger,Briggs,Michanek,Lovaas,Persson,Eide,Davey,Sanders,Louis,Boocock 2) Collins,Sjosten,Jansson2) Wilson 2) Younghusband,Loftqvist,Wyer,Haley,Thomas,Morton2) Middleton, Moore, Olsen, Simmons,Jessup,Davis,Lee, Airey,Autrey. Pusey ,Ashby, Mcmillan,Beaton i have missed endless other riders out to.That was the level i remember not to bad for wobblers this year lets be honest the top class riders in Britain were Doyle/Freddie that was it then the next level are the likes of Cook,Thorssell,Fricke,Morris (ect)As i said before the two leagues now are closer than ever would i would pick the 1970/86 era over now i would all day long.

Again some great names there Sid!

 

Brings back so many memories...except Middleton could rarely beat Ashby but could Briggo!

 

Of those you list the only rider I didn't see ride was Dave Younghusband (Booey's mate) who if I remember suffered a badly broken leg and attempted a comeback with Cradley United (as they were known then) but which didn't last.

Edited November 2, 2017 by steve roberts

[BWitcher]

1970/78 heat leaders i will miss some Betts,Kilby,Mauger,Briggs,Michanek,Lovaas,Persson,Eide,Davey,Sanders,Louis,Boocock 2) Collins,Sjosten,Jansson2) Wilson 2) Younghusband,Loftqvist,Wyer,Haley,Thomas,Morton2) Middleton, Moore, Olsen, Simmons,Jessup,Davis,Lee, Airey,Autrey. Pusey ,Ashby, Mcmillan,Beaton i have missed endless other riders out to.That was the level i remember not to bad for wobblers this year lets be honest the top class riders in Britain were Doyle/Freddie that was it then the next level are the likes of Cook,Thorssell,Fricke,Morris (ect)As i said before the two leagues now are closer than ever would i would pick the 1970/86 era over now i would all day long.

 

Sid, you're getting confused. I haven't said today's paltry offering is anywhere near the levels back then. The comparison you have to make is with the current top level, which is Poland or Sweden.

 

It doesn't matter how many riders you list, it's an irrelevance. In a 20 team league, you're going to have 60 heat leaders. In an eight team league you will have 24. The actual 'standard' of the rider doesn't come into it or effect those numbers. Throw in the fact the heat leaders raced each other a lot less and their status grows.

 

I can absolutely guarantee a large number of those riders you list you wouldn't consider 'stars' if they raced in a similar format to that of today. Their ability as a rider doesn't change, but your perception of them and their 'star power' most certainly does.

 

You only have to look back when we last had one big league, a rider such as Charles Ermolenko was an 8.5pt heat leader.. had the league stayed that size throughout his career he would be remembered 20 years later in a much higher regard than a 5-6pter that he was when the league shrunk in size again.

Edited November 2, 2017 by BWitcher

[Sidney the robin]

Sid, you're getting confused. I haven't said today's paltry offering is anywhere near the levels back then. The comparison you have to make is with the current top level, which is Poland or Sweden.

 

It doesn't matter how many riders you list, it's an irrelevance. In a 20 team league, you're going to have 60 heat leaders. In an eight team league you will have 24. The actual 'standard' of the rider doesn't come into it or effect those numbers. Throw in the fact the heat leaders raced each other a lot less and their status grows.

 

I can absolutely guarantee a large number of those riders you list you wouldn't consider 'stars' if they raced in a similar format to that of today. Their ability as a rider doesn't change, but your perception of them and their 'star power' most certainly does.

 

You only have to look back when we last had one big league, a rider such as Charles Ermolenko was an 8.5pt heat leader.. had the league stayed that size throughout his career he would be remembered 20 years later in a much higher regard than a 5-6pter that he was when the league shrunk in size again.

Those i named i think would of been good in any era the bottom line is i remember them as good riders forget figures we can all dress them up the difference then was every week you looked forward to seeing a top class number 1 now there are Doyle/Lindgren that is it a WATERED down product.Another point is i believe some of the riders today would not of been able to handle the tracks with loads of dirt on them todays speedway is so different.

[Humphrey Appleby]

From my perspective, I'd have said the 1989 and 1990 BL competitions had a high standard, with some former heat leaders finding themselves down at reserve.

[steve roberts]

 

Sid, you're getting confused. I haven't said today's paltry offering is anywhere near the levels back then. The comparison you have to make is with the current top level, which is Poland or Sweden.

 

It doesn't matter how many riders you list, it's an irrelevance. In a 20 team league, you're going to have 60 heat leaders. In an eight team league you will have 24. The actual 'standard' of the rider doesn't come into it or effect those numbers. Throw in the fact the heat leaders raced each other a lot less and their status grows.

 

I can absolutely guarantee a large number of those riders you list you wouldn't consider 'stars' if they raced in a similar format to that of today. Their ability as a rider doesn't change, but your perception of them and their 'star power' most certainly does.

 

You only have to look back when we last had one big league, a rider such as Charles Ermolenko was an 8.5pt heat leader.. had the league stayed that size throughout his career he would be remembered 20 years later in a much higher regard than a 5-6pter that he was when the league shrunk in size again.

To be fair the confusion lay in your comment in an earlier post which has caused debate

 

"There are riders who would have been 9pt heat leaders in the British League in the 70's and 80's who wouldn't get a team in Poland"

 

...however since expanding upon your reasoning In subsequent posts I can begin to understand where you are coming from if not totally agreeing.

Those i named i think would of been good in any era the bottom line is i remember them as good riders forget figures we can all dress them up the difference then was every week you looked forward to seeing a top class number 1 now there are Doyle/Lindgren that is it a WATERED down product.Another point is i believe some of the riders today would not of been able to handle the tracks with loads of dirt on them todays speedway is so different.

I remember the Leicester team of 1973 which consisted of heat leaders Wilson, Boulger & Jessup...the opposite number one (never mind the heat leaders) had his hands full taking that trio on!

[BWitcher]

Those i named i think would of been good in any era the bottom line is i remember them as good riders forget figures we can all dress them up the difference then was every week you looked forward to seeing a top class number 1 now there are Doyle/Lindgren that is it a WATERED down product.Another point is i believe some of the riders today would not of been able to handle the tracks with loads of dirt on them todays speedway is so different.

 

You can't 'forget' figures.

 

You remember them as good riders because the majority of the time you saw them winning races. Had they not been winning races regularly you wouldn't remember them as good riders. It's not a difficult concept.

 

Again you are wittering away about the British Leagues of today, which are irrelevant to this conversation. We all know the British league is much weaker and it is the worse for it.

 

Never fear though, Jonathan Chapman thinks excluding any rider who averages above six will see the fans come flocking back...

To be fair the confusion lay in your comment in an earlier post which has caused debate

 

"There are riders who would have been 9pt heat leaders in the British League in the 70's and 80's who wouldn't get a team in Poland"

 

 

Put it this way, it's like saying 6pt riders now get places in the Polish league easily....

Edited November 2, 2017 by BWitcher

[Triple.H.]

Of course Doncaster, Screen, Loram and Tatum were all accomplished motor cyclists when they turned their hand to speedway but one had to admire them in forfeiting the traditional route and joining the big boys!

 

I did some checking on the 'Mad Wellie' and although he appeared for Oxford (NL) and Swindon (BL) in 1977 he had in fact commenced riding down at Weymouth in 1973 but turned to grass track before taking up the sport again in 1976 during second halves at Swindon.

 

Pip Lamb made his debut for Oxford during May 1976 after having trials at the Pete Jarman Training School (to which I attended) at Cowley during the previous Winter but he was another accomplished grass track exponent before turning his hand to speedway.

 

By the way Sid...thoroughly enjoyed the Bob Kilby book!

Pip Lamb was certainly starting to look the real deal before his tragic accident

Trevor Charley comes to mind (no idea what happened to him?) but I guess one of the higher profile under-aged riders was Neil Evitts...before he got found out.

 

Remember watching Colin Richardson and Michael Lee as fifteen year olds riding in exhibition races at Cowley and of course school boy grass tracking gave youngsters an early induction into riding motor bikes before progressing to the rigours of speedway. I don't subscribe to the view that it was common for riders during the seventies to turn up with no experience and within weeks progressing to a team slot...if it happened it was a rare occurrence.

 

By the way I have a DVD of Briggo jogging dressed in a track suit...not sure if it was for the benefit of the camera but I do recall reading that he had to exercise to keep his weight down to a reasonable level.

Briggo jogging in a tracksuit! I bet most of us have seen photos of him riding in his birthday suit

I know Wellie went to the Lew Coffin training school and then concentrated on the grass.You would know this better than most Steve Malc rode alot against Kevin Young who was highly rated often in the junior race at the Abbey Holloway,Young,Pope,Evans rode regular.Young looked good and did quite well for Oxford by the end of the 77 season Holloway was beating Young quite alot.I miss the second halves for me it served its purpose that was then and since then the sport has changed in a different direction.

Didn't Kevin Young move to Germany to race after getting sacked by the Mighty Cheetahs. Edited November 2, 2017 by Triple.H.

[The White Knight]

 

You can't 'forget' figures.

 

You remember them as good riders because the majority of the time you saw them winning races. Had they not been winning races regularly you wouldn't remember them as good riders. It's not a difficult concept.

 

Again you are wittering away about the British Leagues of today, which are irrelevant to this conversation. We all know the British league is much weaker and it is the worse for it.

 

Never fear though, Jonathan Chapman thinks excluding any rider who averages above six will see the fans come flocking back...

 

Put it this way, it's like saying 6pt riders now get places in the Polish league easily....

No - we remember them because they were all bloody good Riders.

[moxey63]

No - we remember them because they were all bloody good Riders.

 

If the standard of league racing is higher today, then why is it so hard to persuade fans to attend? Seriously, there was always a time you noted when a good side was in town, not to be missed. But no team now, despite the so-called higher levels, drags them in.. and the "bumper" Play-Offs are need for this.

 

am not stuck in the past, just that you knew who the cracking side were and were afraid to miss their visit. Unless it's the Play-Off, is there a team that pulls fans in on its travels like the good old days?

 

As a fan, used to love the Cradley, Ipswich, Oxfords and Pooles coming to Belle Vue when they took pride in their team strength. It has been so much watered down now...

Edited November 2, 2017 by moxey63

[The White Knight]

 

If the standard of league racing is higher today, then why is it so hard to persuade fans to attend? Seriously, there was always a time you noted when a good side was in town, not to be missed. But no team now, despite the so-called higher levels, drags them in.. and the "bumper" Play-Offs are need for this.

 

am not stuck in the past, just that you knew who the cracking side were and were afraid to miss their visit. Unless it's the Play-Off, is there a team that pulls fans in on its travels like the good old days?

 

As a fan, used to love the Cradley, Ipswich, Oxfords and Pooles coming to Belle Vue when they took pride in their team strength. It has been so much watered down now...

Agree 100%.

 

Happy days.

[iris123]

This might be food for thought......compare 1964 and 1965 for riders with an average at or above 9.00.Hope the figures i found are correct,but must be way out to make much difference to the findings

1964

O.Fundin 10.71

G.Nordin 10.66

B.Briggs 10.51

N.Boocock 10.44

K.McKinlay 9.92

R.How 9.84

M.Broadbank 9.80

S.Sjösten 9.62

B.Knutson 9.16

and that was it......

 

1965

N.Boocock 11.12

B.Briggs 10.93

K.McKinlay 10.83

M.Broadbank 10.48

S.Harrfeldt 10.46

C.Monk 10.28

O.Nygren 10.22

R.How 10.16

A.Pander 10.03

J.Gooch 9.90

C.Maidment 9.65

R.Genz 9.45

E.Boocock 9.43

N.Hunter 9.43

G.Hunter 9.35

I.Brown 9.27

C.Goody 9.24

R.Luckhurst 9.14

B.Andrew 9.07

D.Younghusband 9.06

J.Biggs 9.00

 

amazing how many more riders over 9 there were in just a year!!!!And you see also that those fron 1964 who rode in 1965 all upped their average and most apart from How quite significantly