chunky Posted October 31, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 Of course you go on how many World titles they won ...Pedersen was Better than Gollob end of story the facts tell you that ...Nicki never had to do all thou's moves because he was better from the gate Nope... Facts tell us that Pedersen won more World Titles than Gollob. I happen to believe that Gollob is perhaps the greatest rider I have ever seen. There is a difference between how many titles someone won and where those titles place them in a list. Then Pedersen is better than Moore, Woffinden is better than Young, Williams is better than Collins, Szczakiel is better than Adams... No, you don't win multiple World Championships by being a no-hoper, but just because somebody didn't win as many as someone else doesn't necessarily make them inferior. If you use simple statistics to rate riders, then Moore, Craven, Young, Penhall, Knutson, Wilkinson, and Collins would never even be considered for a place in an all-time Top Ten list... Steve 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 Addio hit on an important element of modern speedway.Fitness.Probably Mauger was the first to consider fitness important.Most riders before and a lot after could have extended their reign at the top if they weren't smoking and drinking like troopers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 Nope... Facts tell us that Pedersen won more World Titles than Gollob. I happen to believe that Gollob is perhaps the greatest rider I have ever seen. There is a difference between how many titles someone won and where those titles place them in a list. Then Pedersen is better than Moore, Woffinden is better than Young, Williams is better than Collins, Szczakiel is better than Adams... No, you don't win multiple World Championships by being a no-hoper, but just because somebody didn't win as many as someone else doesn't necessarily make them inferior. If you use simple statistics to rate riders, then Moore, Craven, Young, Penhall, Knutson, Wilkinson, and Collins would never even be considered for a place in an all-time Top Ten list... Steve The difference Between all your other examples is that never rode at the same time under the same rules ...Nicki and Gollob rode under the same rules over a long period of time ...and the facts tell you Nicki was miles better . The trap you fall into if that see all these great moves Gollob did and think that makes him better...when really he was just more exciting . 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 I totally agree with Chunky ok we can all be bias as a example was Pedersen better than Moore,Craven, Lee,Collins,Gollob,Penhall for me he wasn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodgy Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 When you have a top 15 you cannot pick everybody can you ? something has to give.Pedersen has had a great career but Gollob for me was a better rider he could pull off moves on the track that Nicki could only dream of doing.When judging a rider i dont just go on how many WC they had won Pedersen won as many titles as Olsen yet for me was a level below him.Yes i go to speedway now enjoy it mostly is it Better NO is it FASTER of course it is that is the real difference now it is faster. Is it faster? We would assume so with today’s detailed engine technology and fine tuning - yet several (not all) track records have stood for years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 Is it faster? We would assume so with today’s detailed engine technology and fine tuning - yet several (not all) track records have stood for years. Having never seen Peter Craven (unfortunately) his record time achieved at Oxford during 1963 (63 seconds) was never bettered until a new record was created (1974?) when the track was shortened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E I Addio Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 Addio hit on an important element of modern speedway.Fitness.Probably Mauger was the first to consider fitness important.Most riders before and a lot after could have extended their reign at the top if they weren't smoking and drinking like troopers.It was actually Briggo that first took training seriously , from quite early in his career, Ivan follwed. Briggo said that fitness didn't make him any better, but kept him at the top longer. Of course, today fitness is more of an exact science than it was in the fifties, sixties and seventies, as is diet. You are right about smoking and drinking though. I have just been reading the Kelly Moran biography and in the early days there was friction with his manager because he was spending too much time hanging out with Chris Pusey, another one who was fond of the grog and lived life in the fast lane, which he could cope with when young but by the time he hooked up with Kelly his lifestyle was catching up with him a dragging his career downhill. Then again, there was Kelly Moran himself, what heights might he have reached with a more responsible life style ? Plenty more like that. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 (edited) It was actually Briggo that first took training seriously , from quite early in his career, Ivan follwed. Briggo said that fitness didn't make him any better, but kept him at the top longer. Of course, today fitness is more of an exact science than it was in the fifties, sixties and seventies, as is diet. You are right about smoking and drinking though. I have just been reading the Kelly Moran biography and in the early days there was friction with his manager because he was spending too much time hanging out with Chris Pusey, another one who was fond of the grog and lived life in the fast lane, which he could cope with when young but by the time he hooked up with Kelly his lifestyle was catching up with him a dragging his career downhill. Then again, there was Kelly Moran himself, what heights might he have reached with a more responsible life style ? Plenty more like that. I guess that there are comparisons with past and modern professional footballers...times and expectations have altered although drug taking appears to be the modern demon within some sports if reports are to be believed. However what's not undeniable is that some riders who rode during the sixties, seventies & eighties regard it as having been a more fun period in which to have competed when they often mixed with the fans after the meeting without having to rush off to another country in which to earn their living. Edited October 31, 2017 by steve roberts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruno Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 It was actually Briggo that first took training seriously , from quite early in his career, Ivan follwed. Briggo said that fitness didn't make him any better, but kept him at the top longer. Of course, today fitness is more of an exact science than it was in the fifties, sixties and seventies, as is diet. You are right about smoking and drinking though. I have just been reading the Kelly Moran biography and in the early days there was friction with his manager because he was spending too much time hanging out with Chris Pusey, another one who was fond of the grog and lived life in the fast lane, which he could cope with when young but by the time he hooked up with Kelly his lifestyle was catching up with him a dragging his career downhill. Then again, there was Kelly Moran himself, what heights might he have reached with a more responsible life style ? Plenty more like that. I could have been so much more than I am, oh well off to the pub Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 I totally agree with Chunky ok we can all be bias as a example was Pedersen better than Moore,Craven, Lee,Collins,Gollob,Penhall for me he wasn't. Personally I find it difficult attempting to compare riders from different eras but any outstanding rider from any era, I'm sure, would excel whatever the criteria as they were/are all accomplished motor cyclists. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevehone Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 I guess that there are comparisons with past and modern professional footballers...times and expectations have altered although drug taking appears to be the modern demon within some sports if reports are to be believed. 80s was far worse for that in the UK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 I don't need to be told it, it's blatently obvious. Riders are fitter and more professional from the very top all the way down. You don't have riders reaching World Finals who turn up with a bike strapped to the back of the car. The leagues were generally a poor standard in the past, period. You could turn up, ride a bike for the first time and be in a team within a few weeks. All documented in Backtrack interviews. Chances of that happening now? Zero. ...that may have been true during the early sixties with the formation of the Provincial League and the later old Second Division (1968) when there was a shortage of riders to fill the teams and the second tier of racing was basically a development league before the criteria began to change during the middle seventies. However during my formative "Rebel' years (1972 - 75) I can only recall one rider who fitted that criteria and that was Julian Wigg (Simon's brother) who first appeared in second halves (1972) riding his grass track bike and late in the season putting in an appearance for the team at, if I remember correctly, Sheffield. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted November 1, 2017 Report Share Posted November 1, 2017 Numerous interviews in Backtrack of it happening, all from the 70's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted November 1, 2017 Report Share Posted November 1, 2017 (edited) Numerous interviews in Backtrack of it happening, all from the 70's. I recall exceptional sixteen year old talents...Chris Morton, Michael Lee & Kenny Carter to name three...but I don't recall that it was as common a practice back then...certainly not in the upper league although the lower league's criteria was somewhat different as quoted in a previous post having personally closely followed Eastbourne & Peterborough whose riders often took part in second halves at Cowley due to the promotional tie up during that period. Certain promotions (Belle Vue & Ellesmere Port come easily to mind) ran dedicated Training Schools in an attempt to speed up development and give aspiring riders an opportunity to ride. Eastbourne (Thru' Arthur Nutley) would scour the Kent Grasstrack scene and give second half opportunities to promising talent. I shall re-read some of the back numbers of said magazine as well as the 'Classic' magazine to re-jog the memory cells as it was a period that I was very familiar with having attended many tracks during that era. Edited November 1, 2017 by steve roberts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted November 1, 2017 Report Share Posted November 1, 2017 Is it faster? We would assume so with today’s detailed engine technology and fine tuning - yet several (not all) track records have stood for years. Maybe the riders take a wider line around the track these days - so top speeds are higher, but riders are having to travel further. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted November 1, 2017 Report Share Posted November 1, 2017 Maybe the riders take a wider line around the track these days - so top speeds are higher, but riders are having to travel further. Good point...when I first attended speedway white line riding was common place but as time moved on riders began to adopt a different technique due to differing styles and/or bike development. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aces51 Posted November 1, 2017 Report Share Posted November 1, 2017 Numerous interviews in Backtrack of it happening, all from the 70's. The last time you and I discussed this issue you were going to have a look at your magazines, I think you said when you were next in the UK and come up with some names. It would be interesting to have examples and the level of the teams involved. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted November 1, 2017 Report Share Posted November 1, 2017 (edited) The last time you and I discussed this issue you were going to have a look at your magazines, I think you said when you were next in the UK and come up with some names. It would be interesting to have examples and the level of the teams involved. I don't recall it being common practice and don't remember specific examples at Oxford (other than the example I earlier gave) during 1972 -75, Swindon (perhaps Sid could confirm?) White City 1976 - 78 and Eastbourne (both NL and BL eras) during the seventies. It obviously must have happened on occasion as the old British League Division Two/National League required fresh new developing talent as was the remit within the lower league back then. Of course that's no longer the case, as has been the case for many years now, what with the shift in emphasise utilising foreign riders which has obviously squeezed out potential home base talent. It would make for an interesting survey? Edited November 1, 2017 by steve roberts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moxey63 Posted November 1, 2017 Report Share Posted November 1, 2017 No, what you are trying to say is the standard of the British League is so poor nowadays. Er, ok, if you say so. Thought I meant the standard of world speedway... but I may be wrong. Let me just check. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted November 1, 2017 Report Share Posted November 1, 2017 (edited) Er, ok, if you say so. Thought I meant the standard of world speedway... but I may be wrong. Let me just check. You are wrong, you just don't know what you are wrong about. The standard of World speedway is far higher now that it ever was, mainly due to the Poles. Not necessarily the very top riders, but the depth and professionalism of all the others. Edited November 1, 2017 by BWitcher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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