The White Knight Posted October 30, 2017 Report Share Posted October 30, 2017 Assuming you are talking about the infamous incident at White City, then you must also feel the same way about Olsen, Gundersen, Mauger, Betts, and countless other riders who have done exactly the same thing? You do raise some interesting points. I am not sure if there has been a lack of genuine world-class riders, or perhaps a lot of us are just living in the past? When we think of "superstars", it is easy to come up with Moore, Fundin, Nielsen, Collins, Mauger, Penhall etc, but it does seem that we are reluctant - VERY reluctant - to accept that some of the modern era riders are the equivalent. I do accept your point about the consistency, but is that because the riders aren't as good, or is it that there are so many at the same level? Of course, it could be - and this is my own personal feeling - that the tracks and the machinery have a much bigger impact than we really want to believe. Steve Errr - No!!! They didn't make it so bloody obvious. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted October 30, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2017 Errr - No!!! They didn't make it so bloody obvious. So, it IS okay to do that, then? Just make sure you don't get caught!!! Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foamfence Posted October 30, 2017 Report Share Posted October 30, 2017 Assuming you are talking about the infamous incident at White City, then you must also feel the same way about Olsen, Gundersen, Mauger, Betts, and countless other riders who have done exactly the same thing? You do raise some interesting points. I am not sure if there has been a lack of genuine world-class riders, or perhaps a lot of us are just living in the past? When we think of "superstars", it is easy to come up with Moore, Fundin, Nielsen, Collins, Mauger, Penhall etc, but it does seem that we are reluctant - VERY reluctant - to accept that some of the modern era riders are the equivalent. I do accept your point about the consistency, but is that because the riders aren't as good, or is it that there are so many at the same level? Of course, it could be - and this is my own personal feeling - that the tracks and the machinery have a much bigger impact than we really want to believe. Steve Personally I 'feel the same way' about anyone who rigs race results, we had mentioned Carter and Penhall, so I was hardly going to raise a list of other names. It was riders rigging races and then admitting it to newspapers that contributed greatly to the downfall of the sport in this country and the perception among the general public and much of the media that it is nothing more than a circus act. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted October 30, 2017 Report Share Posted October 30, 2017 So, it IS okay to do that, then? Just make sure you don't get caught!!! Steve Better that than take the p!ss out of the paying Spectators. So the answer to your question is - YES!!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Ore Posted October 30, 2017 Report Share Posted October 30, 2017 Better that than take the p!ss out of the paying Spectators. So the answer to your question is - YES!!! On the subject of taking the piss out of the paying spectators, the ultimate must surely have been Ivan Mauger pulling up in the race off to avoid getting the number 13 jacket in the World Final and having to ride in heats 4 and 5. Blatant, yet he is revered by those who criticise others for lesser indiscretions, including having tattoos. I'm certainly no Penhall fan but the incident always cited at White City had no effect on the actual qualifiers. Had Penhall won that heat his fellow countrymen who got through would have still qualified, but he would have been Overseas Champion. Tai gets dog's abuse for allegedly not helping his country yet the same abuse is thrown at Bruce for putting his country before himself. Another case of moaning for moaning's sake? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted October 31, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 (edited) On the subject of taking the piss out of the paying spectators, the ultimate must surely have been Ivan Mauger pulling up in the race off to avoid getting the number 13 jacket in the World Final and having to ride in heats 4 and 5. Blatant, yet he is revered by those who criticise others for lesser indiscretions, including having tattoos. I'm certainly no Penhall fan but the incident always cited at White City had no effect on the actual qualifiers. Had Penhall won that heat his fellow countrymen who got through would have still qualified, but he would have been Overseas Champion. Tai gets dog's abuse for allegedly not helping his country yet the same abuse is thrown at Bruce for putting his country before himself. Another case of moaning for moaning's sake?Thank you for your comment! In addition to "helping" team-mates in individual competition, that Mauger incident is one that has always stuck in my memory. People seem to pick and choose what is and what isn't acceptable... Personally I 'feel the same way' about anyone who rigs race results, we had mentioned Carter and Penhall, so I was hardly going to raise a list of other names. It was riders rigging races and then admitting it to newspapers that contributed greatly to the downfall of the sport in this country and the perception among the general public and much of the media that it is nothing more than a circus act.Honestly, I don't feel that "helping" a team-mate is the same as "rigging" races. Obviously, the Penhall incident is still fresh in the minds of many, but everyone seems to have forgotten - or have chosen to ignore - the sight of Olsen waving Gundersen back to allow Bo Petersen to qualify for a run-off against PC and Andy Grahame... Steve Edited October 31, 2017 by chunky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foamfence Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 Thank you for your comment! In addition to "helping" team-mates in individual competition, that Mauger incident is one that has always stuck in my memory. People seem to pick and choose what is and what isn't acceptable... Honestly, I don't feel that "helping" a team-mate is the same as "rigging" races. Obviously, the Penhall incident is still fresh in the minds of many, but everyone seems to have forgotten - or have chosen to ignore - the sight of Olsen waving Gundersen back to allow Bo Petersen to qualify for a run-off against PC and Andy Grahame... Steve In an individual event you're supposed to ride for yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 (edited) On the subject of taking the piss out of the paying spectators, the ultimate must surely have been Ivan Mauger pulling up in the race off to avoid getting the number 13 jacket in the World Final and having to ride in heats 4 and 5. Blatant, yet he is revered by those who criticise others for lesser indiscretions, including having tattoos. I'm certainly no Penhall fan but the incident always cited at White City had no effect on the actual qualifiers. Had Penhall won that heat his fellow countrymen who got through would have still qualified, but he would have been Overseas Champion. Tai gets dog's abuse for allegedly not helping his country yet the same abuse is thrown at Bruce for putting his country before himself. Another case of moaning for moaning's sake? The problem was that the FIM in their infinite wisdom making it known the riding order for the next qualifying stage based on placings at the previous. Personally can't blame Mauger (and others) using that to their advantage in which to gain a better starting number thus avoiding two races on the trot or evenly spaced races. Races have been thrown, bought etc since the commencement of speedway racing and was/is nothing new. Edited October 31, 2017 by steve roberts 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 (edited) Personally I 'feel the same way' about anyone who rigs race results, we had mentioned Carter and Penhall, so I was hardly going to raise a list of other names. It was riders rigging races and then admitting it to newspapers that contributed greatly to the downfall of the sport in this country and the perception among the general public and much of the media that it is nothing more than a circus act. ...personally I never took the Sunday People's allegations particularly seriously at the time...a newspaper (is it still around?) known for it's sleazy editorials and/or content and sensational story lines who in an attempt to justify it's editorial then print an alleged investigatory journalistic report. John Louis in his autobiography goes at length in explaining the way in which the 'reporters' went about their business in an attempt to 'get a story'. As Ivan Mauger was quoted as saying "Who reads your f**king paper anyway!" Edited October 31, 2017 by steve roberts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 Carter was an honest racer, Penhall is remembered for not being so. I think on balance, Id prefer a dishonest rider who doesnt murder people. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foamfence Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 The problem was that the FIM in their infinite wisdom making it known the riding order for the next qualifying stage based on placings at the previous. Personally can't blame Mauger (and others) using that to their advantage in which to gain a better starting number thus avoiding two races on the trot or evenly spaced races. Races have been thrown, bought etc since the commencement of speedway racing and was/is nothing new. That doesn't make it right. ...personally I never took the Sunday People's allegations particularly seriously at the time...a newspaper (is it still around?) known for it's sleazy editorials and/or content and sensational story lines who in an attempt to justify it's editorial then print an alleged investigatory journalistic report. John Louis in his autobiography goes at length in explaining the way in which the 'reporters' went about their business in an attempt to 'get a story'. As Ivan Mauger was quoted as saying "Who reads your f**king paper anyway!" I never read them but I had a few riders tell me about such things, long before the newspaper articles. People don't usually admit to such allegations if they are innocent. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 (edited) That doesn't make it right. I never read them but I had a few riders tell me about such things, long before the newspaper articles. People don't usually admit to such allegations if they are innocent. Perhaps not but the blame laid at the feet of the FIM who obviously instigated the misguided piece of legislation which enabled riders to juggle their rides to give themselves the best opportunities in the subsequent round...to which I would have done same if I'm honest! I've been aware of money changing hands for many years and my uncle actually saw for himself deals being struck in the pits during one important World Championship qualifier...and I was happy to confirm an article written by John Berry regarding the same incident with John himself which he acknowledged in one of his books. I think that supporters are naive if they think that nothing goes on 'behind the scenes' but I would guess that it's no better or worse than many sports as regards corruption and/or drugs etc? Edited October 31, 2017 by steve roberts 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldyman Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 I wonder how much better or worse off speedway would be now if Berry was allowed to run it when he was alive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHILIPRISING Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 I wonder how much better or worse off speedway would be now if Berry was allowed to run it when he was alive. CONSIDERABLY better... 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 CONSIDERABLY better... Agree 100%. He had vision and intelligence in abundance and, yes, he did upset a few along the way but that's because he didn't suffer fools gladly...of which there were/are a few! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 (edited) He had vision and intelligence in abundance and, yes, he did upset a few along the way but that's because he didn't suffer fools gladly...of which there were/are a few! Undoubtedly an intelligent and deep-thinking promoter, but would ultimately have fallen out with too many people. Running a multi-stakeholder sport needs diplomacy more than dictatorship, and you need to get people to buy into your ideas whether they're fools or not. Of course, it's also hard to think the sport could be any worse off. Edited October 31, 2017 by Humphrey Appleby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 Just think Tai was fortunate and won his titles when there's been a lack of genuine world class riders. You have a near-50 year-old still a threat; an Aussie who could be on his second successive win (but for injury) when Leigh Adams, a real star rider took yonks to win even one round. Jason Doyle or Jason Crump? Where have all the star names gone. No consistency these days. No consistency because the overall level is higher than it has ever been. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 Undoubtedly an intelligent and deep-thinking promoter, but would ultimately have fallen out with too many people. Running a multi-stakeholder sport needs diplomacy more than dictatorship, and you need to get people to buy into your ideas whether they're fools or not. Of course, it's also hard to think the sport could be any worse off. ...sadly we will never know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 (edited) Woffinden is the same rider he was when he won 2 world titles , difference is now he has decent opposition , and boy does it show Could be true,could be rubbish Just take a look at say Barry Briggs.He won back to back titles then in the next 5 seasons got 1 silver and two bronze.Tai's record is very much similar to Briggo in a short period.We don't know how it will pan out in the future though.Maybe like Briggo or Greg he just has to wait w hile before he wins another title or two? Peter Craven is an even more extreme example between his wins Edited October 31, 2017 by iris123 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 Woffinden is the same rider he was when he won 2 world titles , difference is now he has decent opposition , and boy does it show Yeah. He finished 3rd, unbelievable poor performance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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