steve roberts Posted November 2, 2017 Report Share Posted November 2, 2017 (edited) This might be food for thought......compare 1964 and 1965 for riders with an average at or above 9.00.Hope the figures i found are correct,but must be way out to make much difference to the findings 1964 O.Fundin 10.71 G.Nordin 10.66 B.Briggs 10.51 N.Boocock 10.44 K.McKinlay 9.92 R.How 9.84 M.Broadbank 9.80 S.Sjösten 9.62 B.Knutson 9.16 and that was it...... 1965 N.Boocock 11.12 B.Briggs 10.93 K.McKinlay 10.83 M.Broadbank 10.48 S.Harrfeldt 10.46 C.Monk 10.28 O.Nygren 10.22 R.How 10.16 A.Pander 10.03 J.Gooch 9.90 C.Maidment 9.65 R.Genz 9.45 E.Boocock 9.43 N.Hunter 9.43 G.Hunter 9.35 I.Brown 9.27 C.Goody 9.24 R.Luckhurst 9.14 B.Andrew 9.07 D.Younghusband 9.06 J.Biggs 9.00 amazing how many more riders over 9 there were in just a year!!!!And you see also that those fron 1964 who rode in 1965 all upped their average and most apart from How quite significantly Wasn't that the year (1964) that the Provisional League and National League amalgamated to form the British League (1965)? If the standard of league racing is higher today, then why is it so hard to persuade fans to attend? Seriously, there was always a time you noted when a good side was in town, not to be missed. But no team now, despite the so-called higher levels, drags them in.. and the "bumper" Play-Offs are need for this. am not stuck in the past, just that you knew who the cracking side were and were afraid to miss their visit. Unless it's the Play-Off, is there a team that pulls fans in on its travels like the good old days? As a fan, used to love the Cradley, Ipswich, Oxfords and Pooles coming to Belle Vue when they took pride in their team strength. It has been so much watered down now... ...remember getting all exciting on the bus coming home from school the prospect of seeing reigning World Champion Ole Olsen putting in an appearance at Cowley riding for Wolves (1972)...all too rare as subsequent seasons proved! Also marvelling at the power house side, Belle Vue, at Cowley albeit with the absent Ivan Mauger (broken wrists?) but ably assisted by his replacement Ray 'World Cup Willie' Wilson...and Soldier Boy in tow adding to the entertainment! Great days! Glad I experienced the seventies (speedway's last 'Golden Age')...just wished I had seen some of the sixties stuff (one match that I don't recall unfortunately!) Edited November 2, 2017 by steve roberts 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted November 2, 2017 Report Share Posted November 2, 2017 Wasn't that the year (1964) that the Provisional League and National League amalgamated to form the British League (1965)? ...remember getting all exciting on the bus coming home from school the prospect of seeing reigning World Champion Ole Olsen putting in an appearance at Cowley riding for Wolves (1972)...all too rare as subsequent seasons proved! Also marvelling at the power house side, Belle Vue, at Cowley albeit with the absent Ivan Mauger (broken wrists?) but ably assisted by his replacement Ray 'World Cup Willie' Wilson...and Soldier Boy in tow adding to the entertainment! Great days! Glad I experienced the seventies...just wished I had seen some of the sixties stuff (one match that I don't recall unfortunately!) I saw nine Meetings in 1964 - that was more than enough to get me hooked. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted November 2, 2017 Report Share Posted November 2, 2017 No - we remember them because they were all bloody good Riders. Oh dear. Why did you think they were good riders? If the standard of league racing is higher today, then why is it so hard to persuade fans to attend? Seriously, there was always a time you noted when a good side was in town, not to be missed. But no team now, despite the so-called higher levels, drags them in.. and the "bumper" Play-Offs are need for this. am not stuck in the past, just that you knew who the cracking side were and were afraid to miss their visit. Unless it's the Play-Off, is there a team that pulls fans in on its travels like the good old days? As a fan, used to love the Cradley, Ipswich, Oxfords and Pooles coming to Belle Vue when they took pride in their team strength. It has been so much watered down now... Are you actually following the thread? Who has said the standard of league racing is higher in Britain today? Not one single person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted November 2, 2017 Report Share Posted November 2, 2017 You can't 'forget' figures. You remember them as good riders because the majority of the time you saw them winning races. Had they not been winning races regularly you wouldn't remember them as good riders. It's not a difficult concept. Again you are wittering away about the British Leagues of today, which are irrelevant to this conversation. We all know the British league is much weaker and it is the worse for it. Never fear though, Jonathan Chapman thinks excluding any rider who averages above six will see the fans come flocking back... Put it this way, it's like saying 6pt riders now get places in the Polish league easily.... Witcher like every subject you debate you want to win fair play to you for that but the biggest thing that really strikes me with you is you have commented on riders you did not even see ride was your first meeting in the early nineties.???! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted November 2, 2017 Report Share Posted November 2, 2017 This might be food for thought......compare 1964 and 1965 for riders with an average at or above 9.00.Hope the figures i found are correct,but must be way out to make much difference to the findings 1964 O.Fundin 10.71 G.Nordin 10.66 B.Briggs 10.51 N.Boocock 10.44 K.McKinlay 9.92 R.How 9.84 M.Broadbank 9.80 S.Sjösten 9.62 B.Knutson 9.16 and that was it...... 1965 N.Boocock 11.12 B.Briggs 10.93 K.McKinlay 10.83 M.Broadbank 10.48 S.Harrfeldt 10.46 C.Monk 10.28 O.Nygren 10.22 R.How 10.16 A.Pander 10.03 J.Gooch 9.90 C.Maidment 9.65 R.Genz 9.45 E.Boocock 9.43 N.Hunter 9.43 G.Hunter 9.35 I.Brown 9.27 C.Goody 9.24 R.Luckhurst 9.14 B.Andrew 9.07 D.Younghusband 9.06 J.Biggs 9.00 amazing how many more riders over 9 there were in just a year!!!!And you see also that those fron 1964 who rode in 1965 all upped their average and most apart from How quite significantly Sums it up in a nutshell... now had the leagues not joined and the top flight had continued with a small number of teams for the next decade or so, a great number of those 9-9.5pt riders wouldn't be remembered in the same vein.. Why? Because they'd have been 7pters.. not big hitting heat leaders. The simple facts are, and it is a fact, not an opinion, the bigger the league the more 'stars' you will have, regardless of the ability of the riders in question. Witcher like every subject you debate you want to win fair play to you for that but the biggest thing that really strikes me with you is you have commented on riders you did not even see ride was your first meeting in the early nineties.???! No my first meeting was in 1979. Not that it is anyway relevant, you're trying to argue against Math Sid, and you simply can't. Iris has already demonstrated the difference a larger league makes. Do you deny that the more you see a rider win races the better you think he is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted November 2, 2017 Report Share Posted November 2, 2017 (edited) Sums it up in a nutshell... now had the leagues not joined and the top flight had continued with a small number of teams for the next decade or so, a great number of those 9-9.5pt riders wouldn't be remembered in the same vein.. Why? Because they'd have been 7pters.. not big hitting heat leaders. The simple facts are, and it is a fact, not an opinion, the bigger the league the more 'stars' you will have, regardless of the ability of the riders in question. No my first meeting was in 1979. Not that it is anyway relevant, you're trying to argue against Math Sid, and you simply can't. Iris has already demonstrated the difference a larger league makes. Where Do you deny that the more you see a rider win races the better you think he is? Where did you go from 1979 ???? because you are pretty limited you did not watch much racing in the 80s did you Witcher your time was Sudden Sam time and PK YES ?? 90s.😜😂 Edited November 2, 2017 by Sidney the robin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted November 2, 2017 Report Share Posted November 2, 2017 Where did you go from 1979 ???? because you are pretty limited you did not watch much racing in the 80s did you Witcher your time was Sudden Sam time and PK YES ?? 90s. Sid, I'm not getting involved in one of your petty squabbles which always end with you imploding, wanting a fight and then getting banned. You cannot argue with what I have said because it is mathematical fact. The 70's was a fantastic era, nobody is denying that. The big league played a very big part in that, helping to create more star riders, not really sure why that's so hard to understand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted November 3, 2017 Report Share Posted November 3, 2017 Sid, I'm not getting involved in one of your petty squabbles which always end with you imploding, wanting a fight and then getting banned. You cannot argue with what I have said because it is mathematical fact. The 70's was a fantastic era, nobody is denying that. The big league played a very big part in that, helping to create more star riders, not really sure why that's so hard to understand? Well i am happy with this post fair play to you,my main point was sticking up for the era a fun time for the sport and a time that will be hard to better. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted November 3, 2017 Report Share Posted November 3, 2017 I'm afraid this thread is beginning to lose me...more riders, more teams, more 'stars'? Blimey think I\ll have a lie down somewhere in the dark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted November 3, 2017 Report Share Posted November 3, 2017 I'm afraid this thread is beginning to lose me...more riders, more teams, more 'stars'? Blimey think I\ll have a lie down somewhere in the dark. How can it be losing you? It's an extremely simply concept. If you have 20 teams in a league for example, you have 60 heat leaders. If you have 8 teams in a league, you have 24 heat leaders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted November 3, 2017 Report Share Posted November 3, 2017 Illustrated if you look at the averages when the bl went from 16 to 11 teams in 1985. And also, if you look at the drop on top averages when ht15 was introduced in 1989 (I think, I could be one year out). Its been an interesting thread, Id say certainly the standard of weaker riders now is stronger than it has ever been. If you compare the NL to the old junior/colts sides of the 80s there is no comparison. GP riders are more evenly matched, possibly because there is no stand out superstar, or possibly because there are more top riders, the gp fields are much stronger than most of the old world finals, and riders have something to race for every heat. Certainly those who say top riders are not as good as those in days gone by cannot be basing it on the quality of racing, so unclear on what basis they make the claim? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted November 3, 2017 Report Share Posted November 3, 2017 How can it be losing you? It's an extremely simply concept. If you have 20 teams in a league for example, you have 60 heat leaders. If you have 8 teams in a league, you have 24 heat leaders. ...meaning I've moved on rather than read the same old analysis over and over again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted November 3, 2017 Report Share Posted November 3, 2017 ...meaning I've moved on rather than read the same old analysis over and over again. Have you moved on having learned something? Or just decided you don't like what you hear so you'll ignore it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted November 3, 2017 Report Share Posted November 3, 2017 (edited) Have you moved on having learned something? Or just decided you don't like what you hear so you'll ignore it... It's always educational on here...at varying levels of sustained interest! However when you've had a chance to check out back numbers of 'Backtrack' I'll be keen to see evidence of your claim that riders with no experience gaining team slots within a number of weeks during the seventies? Some examples would be beneficial. Edited November 3, 2017 by steve roberts 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted November 3, 2017 Report Share Posted November 3, 2017 (edited) It's always educational on here...at varying levels of sustained interest! However when you've had a chance to check out back numbers of 'Backtrack' I'll be keen to see evidence of your claim that riders with no experience gaining team slots within a number of weeks during the seventies? Some examples would be beneficial. It won't be till near Christmas when I go back to England... I've meant to do it the last couple of times as this topic has come up previously. On those occasions a couple of forum members said they had read something similar, I think Grachan might have been one of them but I could be wrong. I will try and remember! Edited November 3, 2017 by BWitcher 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moxey63 Posted November 4, 2017 Report Share Posted November 4, 2017 What... so sure that you wanna recheck Backtrack? Thought you already knew it all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted November 4, 2017 Report Share Posted November 4, 2017 What... so sure that you wanna recheck Backtrack? Thought you already knew it all. All I need to 'recheck' Backtrack for is to be able to provide some examples, as requested. Quite a simple concept. As for 'knowing it all', rather childish statement. It would be rather foolish to post about something I don't think I am correct on, perhaps this is where you are going wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted November 4, 2017 Report Share Posted November 4, 2017 Was there quite alot of training schools going on in the late 60/s 70s ? Belle Vue,Ellesmere i know Broady had one at Swindon.Wouldnt it be great if we had that now that would certainly help us produce young riders in Poland are most tracks available seven days a week.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foamfence Posted November 4, 2017 Report Share Posted November 4, 2017 Was there quite alot of training schools going on in the late 60/s 70s ? Belle Vue,Ellesmere i know Broady had one at Swindon.Wouldnt it be great if we had that now that would certainly help us produce young riders in Poland are most tracks available seven days a week.? There are loads around the country. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted November 4, 2017 Report Share Posted November 4, 2017 (edited) Was there quite alot of training schools going on in the late 60/s 70s ? Belle Vue,Ellesmere i know Broady had one at Swindon.Wouldnt it be great if we had that now that would certainly help us produce young riders in Poland are most tracks available seven days a week.? Olle Nygren would run 'Training Schools' at King's Lynn during the seventies and eighties but it was more for the benefit for people like me who wanted just to have a go...although I know that he would run schools for foreign riders which were somewhat more official. As I mentioned earlier 'Speedy' Pete Jarman ran winter schools during the winter of 75/76 at Cowley and Len Silver's schools at Hackney were well received (remember John Noakes and Peter Purvis of 'Blue Peter' fame having a go!) and Garry Middleton used to run schools (Michael Lee attended one such session I remember). Mildenhall, King's Lynn, Rye House and Eastbourne ran schools throughout the early seventies and were rewarded with a flow of riders...some 'schools' however were just an opportunity to test/run a bike with very little instruction. Edited November 4, 2017 by steve roberts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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