Just A Thought...

[Sidney the robin]

...that may have been true during the early sixties with the formation of the Provincial League and the later old Second Division (1968) when there was a shortage of riders to fill the teams and the second tier of racing was basically a development league before the criteria began to change during the middle seventies.

 

However during my formative "Rebel' years (1972 - 75) I can only recall one rider who fitted that criteria and that was Julian Wigg (Simon's brother) who first appeared in second halves (1972) riding his grass track bike and late in the season putting in an appearance for the team at, if I remember correctly, Sheffield.

How many riders made a career for themseves after starting out in old second halves? some of those were novices.At Swindon they used to have a junior jaunt race that produced a few riders over the years people forget Ashby and Kilby were juniors they started from the bottom.For me from 1970 to 86 that was a very strong period the NL was also a decent product as well and the meetings i saw were very good indeed.Young riders going in with the likes of the quality of the Owen Bros), Jackson, Hunter,Etheridge,Woods,Brown,Mcdermott,Shields,R.Hunter (ect) was a tough ask.This myth of riders turning up with 1 bike on the back of the car with a fag in there mouth gives the wrong impression sure people are generally fitter now but i dont think they are better.And today i have just looked at the 2018 series line up not inspiring in my opinion ( Moxey may have a point???) again showing there is still a closed shop syndrome in that event

I recall exceptional sixteen year old talents...Chris Morton, Michael Lee & Kenny Carter to name three...but I don't recall that it was as common a practice back then...certainly not in the upper league although the lower league's criteria was somewhat different as quoted in a previous post having personally closely followed Eastbourne & Peterborough whose riders often took part in second halves at Cowley due to the promotional tie up during that period.

 

Certain promotions (Belle Vue & Ellesmere Port come easily to mind) ran dedicated Training Schools in an attempt to speed up development and give aspiring riders an opportunity to ride. Eastbourne (Thru' Arthur Nutley) would scour the Kent Grasstrack scene and give second half opportunities to promising talent.

 

I shall re-read some of the back numbers of said magazine as well as the 'Classic' magazine to re-jog the memory cells as it was a period that I was very familiar with having attended many tracks during that era.

Doncaster,Screen,Loram,Tatum,all were thrown in at the deep end in a really tough BL league i cant remember to many wobblers riding then.🤓 Edited November 1, 2017 by Sidney the robin

[foamfence]

How many riders made a career for themseves after starting out in old second halves? some of those were novices.At Swindon they used to have a junior jaunt race that produced a few riders over the years people forget Ashby and Kilby were juniors they started from the bottom.For me from 1970 to 86 that was a very strong period the NL was also a decent product as well and the meetings i saw were very good indeed.Young riders going in with the likes of the quality of the Owen Bros), Jackson, Hunter,Etheridge,Woods,Brown,Mcdermott,Shields,R.Hunter (ect) was a tough ask.This myth of riders turning up with 1 bike on the back of the car with a fag in there mouth gives the wrong impression sure people are generally fitter now but i dont think they are better.And today i have just looked at the 2018 series line up not inspiring in my opinion ( Moxey may have a point???) again showing there is still a closed shop syndrome in that event

It's MONSTERous.

[moxey63]

 

You are wrong, you just don't know what you are wrong about.

 

The standard of World speedway is far higher now that it ever was, mainly due to the Poles. Not necessarily the very top riders, but the depth and professionalism of all the others.

 

So... er... I was talking about the top riders.... I did... er.... mention Crump, Rickardsson and Nielsen compared to today's top riders of Tai Woffinden and Glenn (sorry, Jason) Doyle.

 

When I talk about lower down rider, I'll ask for your advice.

 

Thank you... and good day.

Edited November 1, 2017 by moxey63

[steve roberts]

How many riders made a career for themseves after starting out in old second halves? some of those were novices.At Swindon they used to have a junior jaunt race that produced a few riders over the years people forget Ashby and Kilby were juniors they started from the bottom.For me from 1970 to 86 that was a very strong period the NL was also a decent product as well and the meetings i saw were very good indeed.Young riders going in with the likes of the quality of the Owen Bros), Jackson, Hunter,Etheridge,Woods,Brown,Mcdermott,Shields,R.Hunter (ect) was a tough ask.This myth of riders turning up with 1 bike on the back of the car with a fag in there mouth gives the wrong impression sure people are generally fitter now but i dont think they are better.And today i have just looked at the 2018 series line up not inspiring in my opinion ( Moxey may have a point???) again showing there is still a closed shop syndrome in that event

Doncaster,Screen,Loram,Tatum,all were thrown in at the deep end in a really tough BL league i cant remember to many wobblers riding then.

Of course Doncaster, Screen, Loram and Tatum were all accomplished motor cyclists when they turned their hand to speedway but one had to admire them in forfeiting the traditional route and joining the big boys!

 

I did some checking on the 'Mad Wellie' and although he appeared for Oxford (NL) and Swindon (BL) in 1977 he had in fact commenced riding down at Weymouth in 1973 but turned to grass track before taking up the sport again in 1976 during second halves at Swindon.

 

Pip Lamb made his debut for Oxford during May 1976 after having trials at the Pete Jarman Training School (to which I attended) at Cowley during the previous Winter but he was another accomplished grass track exponent before turning his hand to speedway.

 

By the way Sid...thoroughly enjoyed the Bob Kilby book!

Edited November 1, 2017 by steve roberts

[iris123]

There were one or two under age riders back in the 60s or 70s i think.They couldn't have had much experience before riding for a team

 

Also could we use Knutson to point out the poor quality of riders back in those days?I mean he got his first team place in 1957 and in 1959 just missed out on a world final spot by the skin of his teeth.Is that likely to happen now?Think even wonder kids like Emil,Darcy and some of the recent Polish riders have taken far longer because of the quality

It was actually Briggo that first took training seriously , from quite early in his career, Ivan follwed.

Briggo said that fitness didn't make him any better, but kept him at the top longer. Of course, today fitness is more of an exact science than it was in the fifties, sixties and seventies, as is diet.

You are right about smoking and drinking though. I have just been reading the Kelly Moran biography and in the early days there was friction with his manager because he was spending too much time hanging out with Chris Pusey, another one who was fond of the grog and lived life in the fast lane, which he could cope with when young but by the time he hooked up with Kelly his lifestyle was catching up with him a dragging his career downhill. Then again, there was Kelly Moran himself, what heights might he have reached with a more responsible life style ? Plenty more like that.

I'll have to take your word about Briggo.Tbh he didn't seem, looking at him, to be someone who took fitness too seriously.And i know from a couple of my family who would hang around Plough Lane watching Ronnie and Briggo training,that they often had a break in between sessions to go down the pub and then came back and rode around in their hob nail boots and shorts.

 

Phil Rising might know better?

Edited November 1, 2017 by iris123

[steve roberts]

There were one or two under age riders back in the 60s or 70s i think.They couldn't have had much experience before riding for a team

 

Also could we use Knutson to point out the poor quality of riders back in those days?I mean he got his first team place in 1957 and in 1959 just missed out on a world final spot by the skin of his teeth.Is that likely to happen now?Think even wonder kids like Emil,Darcy and some of the recent Polish riders have taken far longer because of the quality

I'll have to take your word about Briggo.Tbh he didn't seem, looking at him, to be someone who took fitness too seriously.And i know from a couple of my family who would hang around Plough Lane watching Ronnie and Briggo training,that they often had a break in between sessions to go down the pub and then came back and rode around in their hob nail boots and shorts.

 

Phil Rising might know better?

Trevor Charley comes to mind (no idea what happened to him?) but I guess one of the higher profile under-aged riders was Neil Evitts...before he got found out.

 

Remember watching Colin Richardson and Michael Lee as fifteen year olds riding in exhibition races at Cowley and of course school boy grass tracking gave youngsters an early induction into riding motor bikes before progressing to the rigours of speedway. I don't subscribe to the view that it was common for riders during the seventies to turn up with no experience and within weeks progressing to a team slot...if it happened it was a rare occurrence.

 

By the way I have a DVD of Briggo jogging dressed in a track suit...not sure if it was for the benefit of the camera but I do recall reading that he had to exercise to keep his weight down to a reasonable level.

Edited November 1, 2017 by steve roberts

[chunky]

Just reverting back to the Pedersen vs Gollob comparison for a second...

 

In DIRECT GP competition (taking the thirteen years when both were full-time), it does make interesting reading.

 

They both rode in 131 GP's, with Pedersen scoring 1559 points, and Gollob 1510 (a massive difference of 0.37 points per GP).

 

Pedersen had 3 world titles, and a silver to Gollob's 1 win, a silver and two bronzes. Gollob's lowest finish was 9th, while Pedersen finished lower than that on four occasions.

 

Taking into account individual GP's, Gollob won 44 medals (17 gold, 11 silver, 16 bronze) to Pedersen's 38 (13 gold, 12 silver, 13 bronze).

 

So, Pedersen may have won more world titles, but Gollob appears to be slightly better consistency-wise.

 

Even taking into account their GP performances outside of the head-to-head, there is little to separate them; Gollob had a silver and two bronzes to Pedersen's brace of bronzes.

 

So, virtually nothing to choose between the pair, and I think that gives me enough of a case to consider Gollob the better of the two.

 

Steve

[Paulco]

Trevor Charley comes to mind (no idea what happened to him?) but I guess one of the higher profile under-aged riders was Neil Evitts...before he got found out.

 

Remember watching Colin Richardson and Michael Lee as fifteen year olds riding in exhibition races at Cowley and of course school boy grass tracking gave youngsters an early induction into riding motor bikes before progressing to the rigours of speedway. I don't go along with the idea that it was common for riders during the seventies to turn up with no experience and within weeks progressing to a team slot...if it happened it was a rare occurrence.

 

By the way I have a DVD of Briggo jogging dressed in a track suit...not sure if it was for the benefit of the camera but I do recall reading that he had to exercise to keep his weight down to a reasonable level.

Mitch Shirra was another one , 15 when he rode in division 2 for Coatbridge

[iris123]

Mitch Shirra was another one , 15 when he rode in division 2 for Coatbridge

Trevor Charley(Vincent) and Mitch were a couple i was thinking of.

[chunky]

Trevor Charley(Vincent) and Mitch were a couple i was thinking of.

We actually covered this a few years ago on here! Neil Evitts appeared a few times for Stoke in 1980 while he was only 15, and Robbie McGregor rode a couple for Glasgow when he was 14...

 

Steve

[steve roberts]

Mitch Shirra was another one , 15 when he rode in division 2 for Coatbridge

Forgot Mitch Shirra!

[Sidney the robin]

Of course Doncaster, Screen, Loram and Tatum were all accomplished motor cyclists when they turned their hand to speedway but one had to admire them in forfeiting the traditional route and joining the big boys!

 

I did some checking on the 'Mad Wellie' and although he appeared for Oxford (NL) and Swindon (BL) in 1977 he had in fact commenced riding down at Weymouth in 1973 but turned to grass track before taking up the sport again in 1976 during second halves at Swindon.

 

Pip Lamb made his debut for Oxford during May 1976 after having trials at the Pete Jarman Training School (to which I attended) at Cowley during the previous Winter but he was another accomplished grass track exponent before turning his hand to speedway.

 

By the way Sid...thoroughly enjoyed the Bob Kilby book!

I know Wellie went to the Lew Coffin training school and then concentrated on the grass.You would know this better than most Steve Malc rode alot against Kevin Young who was highly rated often in the junior race at the Abbey Holloway,Young,Pope,Evans rode regular.Young looked good and did quite well for Oxford by the end of the 77 season Holloway was beating Young quite alot.I miss the second halves for me it served its purpose that was then and since then the sport has changed in a different direction.

[The White Knight]

I know Wellie went to the Lew Coffin training school and then concentrated on the grass.You would know this better than most Steve Malc rode alot against Kevin Young who was highly rated often in the junior race at the Abbey Holloway,Young,Pope,Evans rode regular.Young looked good and did quite well for Oxford by the end of the 77 season Holloway was beating Young quite alot.I miss the second halves for me it served its purpose that was then and since then the sport has changed in a different direction.

Sadly............

[Sidney the robin]

Going back to the modern day riders Ricko and Crump are the only two for me that would get in a top ten or near to one.No order Mauger,Fundin,Briggs,Olsen,Moore,Nielsen,Crump,Ricko,Young,Craven.

[BWitcher]

 

So... er... I was talking about the top riders.... I did... er.... mention Crump, Rickardsson and Nielsen compared to today's top riders of Tai Woffinden and Glenn (sorry, Jason) Doyle.

 

When I talk about lower down rider, I'll ask for your advice.

 

Thank you... and good day.

 

Pray, tell me how you judge how good a rider is? Ah yes, how many races he wins.. as such, if you're racing against a lower overall standard, you're going to win more races, doesn't mean you are better.

 

Your thinking is completely flawed.

 

Next you'll be claiming how strong a league was because of all the 10pt heat leaders!

Doncaster,Screen,Loram,Tatum,all were thrown in at the deep end in a really tough BL league i cant remember to many wobblers riding then.

 

You don't remember very well then do you.

 

There were plenty of 'wobblers' riding at reserve.

 

As for tough? It was a better standard, but nowhere near the level of the Polish league now.

[Sidney the robin]

Pray, tell me how you judge how good a rider is? Ah yes, how many races he wins.. as such, if you're racing against a lower overall standard, you're going to win more races, doesn't mean you are better.

 

Your thinking is completely flawed.

Next you'll be claiming how strong a league was because of all the 10pt heat leaders!

 

You don't remember very well then do you.

 

There were plenty of 'wobblers' riding at reserve.

As for tough? It was a better standard, but nowhere near the level of the Polish league now.

Name me the wobblers then my memory is fine is yours? is Greaves who averaged 2.5 ish this year a wobbler ? of course not you have an opinion on a era you did not even watch.

[orion]

Just reverting back to the Pedersen vs Gollob comparison for a second...

 

In DIRECT GP competition (taking the thirteen years when both were full-time), it does make interesting reading.

 

They both rode in 131 GP's, with Pedersen scoring 1559 points, and Gollob 1510 (a massive difference of 0.37 points per GP).

 

Pedersen had 3 world titles, and a silver to Gollob's 1 win, a silver and two bronzes. Gollob's lowest finish was 9th, while Pedersen finished lower than that on four occasions.

 

Taking into account individual GP's, Gollob won 44 medals (17 gold, 11 silver, 16 bronze) to Pedersen's 38 (13 gold, 12 silver, 13 bronze).

 

So, Pedersen may have won more world titles, but Gollob appears to be slightly better consistency-wise.

 

Even taking into account their GP performances outside of the head-to-head, there is little to separate them; Gollob had a silver and two bronzes to Pedersen's brace of bronzes.

 

So, virtually nothing to choose between the pair, and I think that gives me enough of a case to consider Gollob the better of the two.

 

Steve

The idea is to win titles not to come 9th etc ..plus Gollob had the advantage of thous home gp not only in Poland but on his own track ..its not for debate the facts clearly show Nicki was better.

[steve roberts]

I know Wellie went to the Lew Coffin training school and then concentrated on the grass.You would know this better than most Steve Malc rode alot against Kevin Young who was highly rated often in the junior race at the Abbey Holloway,Young,Pope,Evans rode regular.Young looked good and did quite well for Oxford by the end of the 77 season Holloway was beating Young quite alot.I miss the second halves for me it served its purpose that was then and since then the sport has changed in a different direction.

Remember Kevin Young...sacked by Oxford for missing a Northern Tour if I recall?

 

Kevin Pope I recall as a junior at Reading (Tilehurst) before he moved over to Swindon...I, too, missed the second halves.

 

By the way I'm still awaiting, like Aces51, BWitcher to give some examples to substantiate his claims

 

"You could turn up, ride a bike for the first time and be in a team within a few weeks...all from the 70's."

 

I have trawled my back numbers of the magazine 'Backtrack' and haven't, as yet, been able to trace 'numerous examples'?

Name me the wobblers then my memory is fine is yours? is Greaves who averaged 2.5 ish this year a wobbler ? of course not you have an opinion on a era you did not even watch.

Funny, isn't it Sid, but I've been criticised in the past for passing comment on present day speedway and yet someone who never attended speedway during the seventies can pass judgement without rebuke?

Edited November 1, 2017 by steve roberts

[BWitcher]

Name me the wobblers then my memory is fine is yours? is Greaves who averaged 2.5 ish this year a wobbler ? of course not you have an opinion on a era you did not even watch.

 

Of course Greaves is a 'wobbler', if you are deeming a wobbler to be someone way below the standard of the top riders in the league.

 

Not entirely sure what Greaves has to do with anything, the British League is an irrelevance in a conversation such as this. Back in the 70's and 80's the British League was the top division. Now it is the Polish division and if you are seriously suggesting the British League standard in the 70's and 80's is higher than the Polish League standard of recent years you've got your head screwed on backwards. There are riders who would have been 9pt heat leaders in the British League in the 70's and 80's who wouldn't get a team in Poland. They've moved on, we haven't.

 

I can name a number of riders way, way below the standard of the top guys in teams in the 80's. Chris Cobby, Richard Smith, Andy Sumner, Torben Hansen, Peter Schroek, Carl Bodley, Lee Edwards, Ade Hoole, Flemming Pedersen... those are just some for one team, Wolves, that I can recall of the top of my head. Personally I think 'wobblers' is a disparaging term, but they were well, well below the level of the heat leaders of the time and you would never see a rider anywhere close to that standard in the Polish top flight as it is now. A few more I can remember from Cradley include David Haynes, Anthony Boyd, Mark Meredith, Carl Robinson, Lance Sealey... Bradford would have riders such as Phil Disney, Stuart Parnaby, Simon Green, Bryan Larner, Darren Pearson.. I could go on.

 

As for the Backtrack issue, I'll have to check when I go back to England next and get back to you. Perhaps 'numerous' is OTT but there were certainly two or three interviews I read of that nature and they weren't 'top' guys either who might have had the natural talent. My point is quite simply there is absolutely zero chance of that sort of thing ever happening now. Incidentally, I don't include riders who progressed from grass track in this as they could adapt quite quickly as was shown many times over the years... sadly a source of rider that has pretty much dried up now.

Edited November 1, 2017 by BWitcher

[chunky]

The idea is to win titles not to come 9th etc ..plus Gollob had the advantage of thous home gp not only in Poland but on his own track ..its not for debate the facts clearly show Nicki was better.

"Not for debate"??? Sorry, do I have to ask your permission to speak???

 

Steve