Glasgow 2018

[Weeyin]

12 hours ago, MD said:

Depends on the league structure and points limit. If its one league Cook wont be back. If its a vastly reduced points limit in the Championship he also wont be back. No easy answers here.

I would already have asked Harris and Sarjeant for their Kevlars back.

Who is to say Cook won't be back if it is one league, he has been getting a lot of stick from Belle vue fans this year and most of them don't have him in their team plans for 2019. Craig improved greatly after joining Glasgow and is happy there. He also brought more than just his points, he galvanised and brought belief to the team. I would have him back regardless of what league we are in, although it would depend on what team average would be, it is ironic that we could keep our current team under the 42.5 rule, however that is unlikely to be the case. This year's drastic team change from 2017 was a bit too much, I do think we need to try and keep at least 3 for continuity. Goodness knows what gems the AGM will bring out, but we need more than just a tweak here and there.How many teams will survive to next season is also a major issue. It is going to be a long winter.

[MD]

11 hours ago, BigBoaby said:

Tell that to Arena Essex's all-conquering 1991 team, and Newcastle's all-conquering 1982 team and 1983 team.  They were all "top heavy" and totally dominated.   

It is a fallacy that people criticise so called "top-heavy" teams.  If you look at the facts, the one single factor in any winning team is improving averages over the previous year and in fact it makes little difference where the spread of power is.  You can't tell me that four 10 point men will not steamroller most teams in the league as that is exactly what would happen for a team that had that kind of fire power.  Far too much is made of criticising so called "top heavy" teams when invariably they are missing the point that there is some other factor involved and the acid test of "whether the averages have improved over or gone down over the whole team" is the true acid test as invariably when the averages do improve significantly over the whole team and improved by more than improvement on averages in the rest of the league, that is what has always determined which team ends up top and certainly in the points limit era.  Arena Essex are a case in point, some say it was a bit controversial that they changed the make-up of their team part way through the season and strengthened, riders on false averages etc and by whichever means they as a team did markedly improve on their overall team averages, with an ultra strong top five - oh how they struggled (not!!).  It was their ultra strong top 5 that did the damage and scored the vast majority of their points, the opposing teams tended to get points back from their reserves but not enough to offset their ultra strong top five.

Im not sure what relevance teams from 30 odd years ago have to today. The bikes, acceleration, track prep etc are all markedly different. Arena Essex and Newcastle also dont (or didnt) ride at Ashfield. Each track shape will determine what type of team each team needs. My post referred to Glasgow and Glasgow alone that a strong top 5 has never worked for us, even going back to 2006 when we had Danny Bird, Shane Parker, Kauko Nieminen et al. I agree there is often another factor or factors which get in the way such as injuries or in our case Harris treating us as second class. For Glasgow our league success in 2011 came as a result of Joe Screen at the top and four different riders sharing the reserve berth over the season, as one found it heavy going at No2 , he would drop to reserve, rapidly find his confidence and bang in heavy points. The team was much better balanced with Nick Morris the serious improver that year. We need to find a Nick Morris again for 2019.

[Gazc]

11 hours ago, Fromafar said:

The trouble nowadays is experienced riders are " looking after" their average these to keep them in a job the next season.That usually means an up and coming rider who has a good seaon can struggle to  find a Team because he will  value himself a bit more.Think we need grading system as opposed to strict average to help the situation.Anyone signing Cook on a10 + average will struggle to balance the Team,Although if Glasgow do they could probably keep the same Team if they want to( I doubt it though).

Replace Harris with Kerr and replace Vissing with Summers and replace Sarjeant with Coty jobs a good un . Although based on this year would doubt Starke will be back.

 What make up the leagues and averages will be in who knows but I agree with getting rid of the average system it is far too easy to abuse grading is the way to go.

But regardless on structure averages etc if it is at all possible to get Craig Cook back next season then it is a no brainer for me.

[dontforgetthefueltapsbruv]

Grading would mean far more uneven teams

Instead of all teams around 42.5 you would end up with a few effectively nearer 50 and some not far above 35

Would be a disaster IMO

[TotallyHonestJohn]

53 minutes ago, dontforgetthefueltapsbruv said:

Grading would mean far more uneven teams

Instead of all teams around 42.5 you would end up with a few effectively nearer 50 and some not far above 35

Would be a disaster IMO

Don't disagree in the slightest, however and on a similar vain, it was mooted a few years back to retain the average system but also introduce a "Banding (variation on a grading theme) System" for the riders which would result in the clubs having to blend a team more carefully.

It was to give riders at the bottom end of the averages (allegedly) more of a chance to be picked up and to potentially save clubs on cost. So rather than the Danish Model that Grades riders for a season' the Average would dictate the Band' and the Club would be allowed to blend a team from the Bands with certain restrictions but also had to build a team to a fixed number of points as is now based on Averages. It was deemed to complicated by certain promoters (the ones who would struggle to manipulate the system probably I would suggest and therefore it was not progressed)

Cash is King especially when there isn't much of it and it was another attempt in trying to level the playing field, to allow those clubs less financially well off the chance to build a competitive team. It was ultimately binned and the 8 point rule i.e. one per club in the Premiership came in. (nothing for the Championship)

It was/is all about paying out less money and to even up the teams more (again allegedly) than anything else, which lets face it could be done by setting the team build figure to 32.5 rather than 42.5 which is something I don't personally agree with as we should be building to 42.5 or 45 to my mind?. However when this "Banding" was proposed and the fast track system on reserves went; one club mooted as these young reserve riders had been racing in protected races and had false averages everyone should be allowed to build to 55 points, they also said the same when the realignment of the riders averages came in a couple of years back as well. 

I suppose everyone has ideas with some possibly more rational than others, however what appears to happen on a regular basis with the BSPA is any idea that is produced gets kicked around  at a couple of meetings and when it doesn't suit one promotion or a small clique of promoters the resultant proposal goes in the bin "good or bad" however they never give anything radical (or what is perceived as radical) a chance so as someone recently said "a head in the sand approach will not make the BSPA ostrich fly" (which is topical for a Glasgow thread but will probably fly over the heads of many)

Regards
THJ

Edited October 18, 2018 by TotallyHonestJohn
missed out key word

[jenga]

11 hours ago, Gazc said:

Replace Harris with Kerr and replace Vissing with Summers and replace Sarjeant with Coty jobs a good un . Although based on this year would doubt Starke will be back.

 What make up the leagues and averages will be in who knows but I agree with getting rid of the average system it is far too easy to abuse grading is the way to go.

But regardless on structure averages etc if it is at all possible to get Craig Cook back next season then it is a no brainer for me.

have all these guys ridden for Glasgow at one time or another , but not at the same time ? keep the young un in the side (jack) and watch him develop through the season . its going to be interesting watching Glasgow build a team in 2019 .best of luck, i maybe your year next year .

[Gazc]

16 minutes ago, jenga said:

have all these guys ridden for Glasgow at one time or another , but not at the same time ? keep the young un in the side (jack) and watch him develop through the season . its going to be interesting watching Glasgow build a team in 2019 .best of luck, i maybe your year next year .

Yep i would have Jack in the team showed glimpses of potential it is a trek for him though so we shall see.

Yes all have ridden for us at one time or another.

[GS550]

13 hours ago, MD said:

Im not sure what relevance teams from 30 odd years ago have to today. The bikes, acceleration, track prep etc are all markedly different. Arena Essex and Newcastle also dont (or didnt) ride at Ashfield. Each track shape will determine what type of team each team needs. My post referred to Glasgow and Glasgow alone that a strong top 5 has never worked for us, even going back to 2006 when we had Danny Bird, Shane Parker, Kauko Nieminen et al. I agree there is often another factor or factors which get in the way such as injuries or in our case Harris treating us as second class. For Glasgow our league success in 2011 came as a result of Joe Screen at the top and four different riders sharing the reserve berth over the season, as one found it heavy going at No2 , he would drop to reserve, rapidly find his confidence and bang in heavy points. The team was much better balanced with Nick Morris the serious improver that year. We need to find a Nick Morris again for 2019.

Blah blah blah.  What a load of garbage.  You're talking through a hole in your backside.  They didn't ride at Ashfield.  Aye right.  Poole don't ride at Ashfield either.  What a load of guff.

Obviously team full of 10 point men would fail around Ashfield.  You're talking crap.  According to you a 10 point man will always lose to a 5 pointer.  Absolute mince.

The one consistent factor in championship winning teams throughout the points limit era has been improving averages and if you don't know that you know nuthin.  To quote you, maybe you have no relevance today.

 

[MD]

1 hour ago, BigBoaby said:

Blah blah blah.  What a load of garbage.  You're talking through a hole in your backside.  They didn't ride at Ashfield.  Aye right.  Poole don't ride at Ashfield either.  What a load of guff.

Obviously team full of 10 point men would fail around Ashfield.  You're talking crap.  According to you a 10 point man will always lose to a 5 pointer.  Absolute mince.

The one consistent factor in championship winning teams throughout the points limit era has been improving averages and if you don't know that you know nuthin.  To quote you, maybe you have no relevance today.

 

Here was me thinking a reasoned debate could be had.

[Tigerforever]

This years team had improvements from 4 riders, Vissing,Sarjeant,Thomas and Kerr before he got injured, the problem was Harris and Starke lost over 1.5 between them and Worrall was down about a point before he left for Edinburgh.

With a lower points limit being the rumour for next season Cook would take up a chunk of points but he does do the business in the big races!

A new Aussie or American might be the way to go to get a better balance plus it’s something different for the fans to look forward to

[Gazc]

3 minutes ago, Tigerforever said:

This years team had improvements from 4 riders, Vissing,Sarjeant,Thomas and Kerr before he got injured, the problem was Harris and Starke lost over 1.5 between them and Worrall was down about a point before he left for Edinburgh.

With a lower points limit being the rumour for next season Cook would take up a chunk of points but he does do the business in the big races!

A new Aussie or American might be the way to go to get a better balance plus it’s something different for the fans to look forward to

Diluting the product is not the way to win fan's back as reducing the fixture list wasn't this year if indeed this is the case, it never worked before and I will hazard a guess that it won't work again.

 

The whole product needs a good shake up with fresh ideas not going back over old ground again and again and again. 

[Tigerforever]

I think it’s more to do with there being the same 11 teams in the Championship compared to 7/8 coming to the tapes next season.

the Championship is now too close to the Premiership and it has riders earning big money that clubs simply can’t afford anymore.

its no secret that more than half lost serious money again in 2018, I’m not sure it has been diluted as the points limit was 42.50 a few years back and that included bonus points, now it’s 42.50 without bonus points, which in some teams cases adds up to over 45 points, and it still didn’t bring in more crowds. It’s the product although I do agree regular racing would certainly help.

 

[Mr Blobby]

You can have Cook at a large price.

[Tigerforever]

1 minute ago, Mr Blobby said:

You can have Cook at a large price.

Well yous could certainly do with the cash lol, on a more serious note the Edinburgh team including bonus points is over a 50 point average combined, is it any wonder clubs are losing money,  a 50 point plus team and the crowds are not up from previous years, why?

[Gazc]

6 minutes ago, Mr Blobby said:

You can have Cook at a large price.

Day's of buying riders have come to an end asset base will be rendered useless and riders are self employed and will ride where it suits them best.

All of the above will come to fruition soon.

[IronScorpion]

16 hours ago, Gazc said:

Replace Harris with Kerr and replace Vissing with Summers and replace Sarjeant with Coty jobs a good un . Although based on this year would doubt Starke will be back.

 What make up the leagues and averages will be in who knows but I agree with getting rid of the average system it is far too easy to abuse grading is the way to go.

But regardless on structure averages etc if it is at all possible to get Craig Cook back next season then it is a no brainer for me.

Grading's will not work as the teams with the most money payable through better sponsorship or income(revenue) will always pick the cream of the grading's. To stop manipulation of the averages towards the end of the season, & this has been mentioned possibly every year for the last few years, is to remove the lowest 2 or 3 scores for their averages.

[dontforgetthefueltapsbruv]

Agree with IronScorpion on this one

Taking out the top and bottom of the sample is the best way of dealing with any potential manipulation

[IronScorpion]

I know they do it in the diving marking but never known why. Maybe it is to remove biased & unbiased marking. They should maybe do it in the Eurovision Song Contest as that is VERY BIASED.

[jenga]

4 hours ago, BigBoaby said:

Blah blah blah.  What a load of garbage.  You're talking through a hole in your backside.  They didn't ride at Ashfield.  Aye right.  Poole don't ride at Ashfield either.  What a load of guff.

Obviously team full of 10 point men would fail around Ashfield.  You're talking crap.  According to you a 10 point man will always lose to a 5 pointer.  Absolute mince.

The one consistent factor in championship winning teams throughout the points limit era has been improving averages and if you don't know that you know nuthin.  To quote you, maybe you have no relevance today.

 

workington only have a slight increase in riders averages and yet are proving to be the form sides to beat. 

but that could change when we get to the go cart track (rye house) and the eddie wright raceway or the other one called armadump . (but we have already done that one .

[Mr Blobby]

23 hours ago, Tigerforever said:

Well yous could certainly do with the cash lol, on a more serious note the Edinburgh team including bonus points is over a 50 point average combined, is it any wonder clubs are losing money,  a 50 point plus team and the crowds are not up from previous years, why?

Would you rather they averages 30 points? We make teams to win trophies not to just take part.