Edinburgh 2018

[JanAndersen]

2 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

No they aren't.

Why don't you try reading the 'black and white' rules?

People are either too thick to understand what you’re saying or too pig headed to acknowledge it. 

[lucifer sam]

1 hour ago, soupy said:

That is the rules for everybody's sake and is in black and white and there should be no descrepencies for any team no matter what ifs and buts.

It's obvious, but it still won't stop BWitcher from arguing that black is white.

[JanAndersen]

35 minutes ago, lucifer sam said:

It's obvious, but it still won't stop BWitcher from arguing that black is white.

Nicely proving my point.

[soupy]

If they take out the appeals  process would that keep everybody happy.

[JanAndersen]

2 minutes ago, soupy said:

No they are sticking to the black and white rules no ifs and buts.

OK. Let's take this one step at a time.....

What were Edinburgh asking them to consider?

[scotchopper]

Steve Evans has posted the evidence that was endorsed by the AMA stating Luke's case for special dispensation for a visa on facebook. I believe this was presented to the bspa in December. It is pretty comprehensive and describes exactly the scenario that the special dispensation was set up for. 

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10156813358991754&id=646901753

Apologies I'm on my phone otherwise I would attach the images for non fbers 

[Alan_Jones]

3 hours ago, BWitcher said:

The UKVI have already stated he meets the criteria for a discretionary endorsement so the BSPA statement on the issue is quite simply an out and out lie.

Where have they stated that? Someone on the end of the phone saying it "seems like" a valid case isn't really a ringing endorsement is it?

And to the Edinburgh fans, the fact that the regulations allow for the right of appeal doesn't mean that one is automatically successful.

[JanAndersen]

8 minutes ago, Alan_Jones said:

Where have they stated that? Someone on the end of the phone saying it "seems like" a valid case isn't really a ringing endorsement is it?

And to the Edinburgh fans, the fact that the regulations allow for the right of appeal doesn't mean that one is automatically successful.

Absolutely and i don't think anyone is suggesting that should be the case. The BSPA should however give more clarity on why the appeal was unsuccessful. 

[BWitcher]

13 minutes ago, Alan_Jones said:

Where have they stated that? Someone on the end of the phone saying it "seems like" a valid case isn't really a ringing endorsement is it?

And to the Edinburgh fans, the fact that the regulations allow for the right of appeal doesn't mean that one is automatically successful.

Quite correct and indeed I don't particularly have a problem with the appeal failing.

However, the appeal is for cases that don't fit the criteria. So saying the appeal has failed because it doesn't fit the criteria is dumb even by BSPA standards.

If they wish to stick to the hard and fast criteria, remove the appeal procedure and say so. Otherwise, once again, it leaves the door open for one rule to be applied for one and another for someone else.

[lucifer sam]

4 minutes ago, JanAnderson said:

Absolutely and i don't think anyone is suggesting that should be the case. The BSPA should however give more clarity on why the appeal was unsuccessful. 

These procedures were clarified and implemented forcibly in recent years when British Speedway ran a serious risk of losing the use of all visa riders.

There's all the clarity that you need.

[BWitcher]

1 minute ago, lucifer sam said:

These procedures were clarified and implemented forcibly in recent years when British Speedway ran a serious risk of losing the use of all visa riders.

There's all the clarity that you need.

 

Remove the appeal process then and simply have a hard and fast rule. 

[scotchopper]

The thing that has been forgotten in all this is the person that is really punished is the rider.  Edinburgh will have to move on, they'll sign someone else as they have to have a 7th rider who by the way will almost certainly be another new foreigner on 5.20 so the decision won't benefit any young british riders.

But Luke Becker is going to lose a vital year in his speedway development, he's an 18 year old kid who has shown glimpses of real potential and is obviously well thought of in American circles.  It is also a double whammy, he was in with a shout of becoming American champion when he crashed in the final of the 2nd round and broke his ankle. Depriving him of an almost certain top 3 finish (he was 8 points ahead of 4th place after that 2nd round), a big chance of winning the title and now due to this truly awful decision a contract to race in the UK.

Now it isn't up to the BSPA to help develop young american riders but this is an 18 year old lad willing to move to the other side of the world to develop his skills and hopefully follow in the footsteps of many top compatriots.  Apparently one of the things submitted with the appeal was a glowing report from Greg Hancock.

The UKVI don't have experts in speedway that is why these discretionary processes are left up to the BSPA MC. They had 2 questions to ask:

1) If the rider did not miss a round of the American Championships would he have finished in the top 4 - The only answer to that is YES

2) Is the riders record in speedway at the highest level and will they contribute to the development of the sport - Now according to the MC winning races in the World Cup race off at 18 years of age isn't good enough.  

Now as some people have suggested they could state that they have decided no one is going to get a Visa as a result of an appeal but that should have been stated in the conference because it is effectively changing the rules. Either way they didn't state that they just effectively said they won't consider the appeal because others in the past have abused the system. Two wrongs don't make a right and as I said at the start they are punishing a young rider who's case exactly meets the requirement for a discretionary endorsement.

So the only question outstanding I would ask is if it was a different team in the league, e.g. Scunthorpe, he was signing for would the answer be different.......  I think almost certainly YES and shame on those who made this decision.

 

[arnieg]

Just wondering..

If Luke Becker is not a good candidate for discretionary recommendation for a visa , then can someone give an example of who would be? There must be some cases as otherwise there would be no point in having the discretionary provision.

The decision looks perverse and misguided, however maybe this is about the politics of brexit.

[scotchopper]

2 minutes ago, arnieg said:

Just wondering..

If Luke Becker is not a good candidate for discretionary recommendation for a visa , then can someone give an example of who would be? There must be some cases as otherwise there would be no point in having the discretionary provision.

The decision looks perverse and misguided, however maybe this is about the politics of brexit.

That's the thing arnieg. Edinburgh contacted UKVI to clarify if he should be eligible and were told that as he had an injury yes he should be considered. As I said in my post they leave the decision up to the MC as they are better to judge the 2nd question, i.e. yes barring injury he probably would have qualified but is he good enough? The MC have not said NO to this they have just said he won't be considered.

If they are to deny Luke the opportunity to race in the UK then they should at least have the balls to tell the lad why they don't think he is good enough.

[Paulco]

7 hours ago, scotchopper said:

.

So the only question outstanding I would ask is if it was a different team in the league, e.g. Scunthorpe, he was signing for would the answer be different.......  I think almost certainly YES and shame on those who made this decision.

 

Paranoia levels reaching critical along the M8 as a result of this team building setback 

[Grachan]

I don't know the whole story, but from what I can see, this is how it is.

Edinburgh tried to get a rider who doesn't fit in with the requirements. They must have known this?

They asked the mc for approval. No harm in asking, right? They were told that he doesn't fit the criteria. That's the end of it, surely.

I see no problem in how the BSPA have acted here.

If Edinburgh want to keep this going, they should contact their local MP and get him to persue the case. It worked for Swindon with Jimmy Nilsen all those years ago, when you needed to be a 6 pointer to get a work permit.

Don't blame the BSPA here. Their sponsorship license is at risk if they let someone slip through the net.

[screm]

For to long now many on here have accused the BSPA of not sticking to their rules, like it or not with this case as well as the Nicholls/Kennett case the BSPA have enforced their rules, so I applaud them for doing so.

[mac101]

Did the UKVI not give a rider the ok to ride over here a few years back then tell him after he got here  he had 24 hours to leave the country 

[gmuncie]

48 minutes ago, Grachan said:

I don't know the whole story, but from what I can see, this is how it is.

Edinburgh tried to get a rider who doesn't fit in with the requirements. They must have known this?

They asked the mc for approval. No harm in asking, right? They were told that he doesn't fit the criteria. That's the end of it, surely.

I see no problem in how the BSPA have acted here.

If Edinburgh want to keep this going, they should contact their local MP and get him to persue the case. It worked for Swindon with Jimmy Nilsen all those years ago, when you needed to be a 6 pointer to get a work permit.

Don't blame the BSPA here. Their sponsorship license is at risk if they let someone slip through the net.

Not quite Grachan it’s more like 

Edinburgh attempted to sign a rider that does not automatically qualify for a visa but that they felt did qualify under the discretionary rules (posted earlier in the thread)

Edinburgh then built their case with testimony from Steve Evans, Greg Hancock and the UKVI

BSPA management committee rejected the appeal (as is their right)

BSPA neglected their own rules that state that the outcome of an appeal with reasoning will be provided to the relevant parties.

Therein lies the gripe and where the accusations of bias come in as there has been no transparency and the reasoning for the rejection is yet to be received. 

[scotchopper]

1 hour ago, Paulco said:

Paranoia levels reaching critical along the M8 as a result of this team building setback 

Maybe but if you or anyone else can justify why he does not fit in the terms of the discretionary approval then I will happily move along. The MC failed to do so which is why it is open to accusation of bias.

As i said before Edinburgh will move on, sign a new rider who could work out better. It is the young lad that is being punished.

Hopefully he comes back to the monarchs next year and shows everyone they were wrong.

Edited February 2, 2018 by scotchopper