Tsunami Posted February 2, 2018 Report Share Posted February 2, 2018 (edited) On 2/2/2018 at 9:55 AM, mac101 said: Did the UKVI not give a rider the ok to ride over here a few years back then tell him after he got here he had 24 hours to leave the country Expand Ty Proctor. Edited February 2, 2018 by Tsunami Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grachan Posted February 2, 2018 Report Share Posted February 2, 2018 (edited) On 2/2/2018 at 9:59 AM, gmuncie said: Not quite Grachan it’s more like Edinburgh attempted to sign a rider that does not automatically qualify for a visa but that they felt did qualify under the discretionary rules (posted earlier in the thread) Edinburgh then built their case with testimony from Steve Evans, Greg Hancock and the UKVI BSPA management committee rejected the appeal (as is their right) BSPA neglected their own rules that state that the outcome of an appeal with reasoning will be provided to the relevant parties. Therein lies the gripe and where the accusations of bias come in as there has been no transparency and the reasoning for the rejection is yet to be received. Expand A few people are saying there was testimony from UKVI. From my own dealings with them I find that unlikely, although it would be interesting if someone could post exact details of what is meant by this. If there was, genuinely, approval from UKVI, then there is no reason for him to be refused. My own guess is that this is just the standard 'you have a right to appeal' type of statement that appears carte blanche on all refusal letters. So, perhaps, someone could post exact details of this UKVI testimony. The fact is, people in this country have been crying out for years for tougher immigration laws, but when they get them it becomes a bad thing because speedway riders come under the tougher rules. Edited February 2, 2018 by Grachan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted February 2, 2018 Report Share Posted February 2, 2018 (edited) On 2/2/2018 at 10:37 AM, Grachan said: A few people are saying there was testimony from UKVI. From my own dealings with them I find that unlikely, although it would be interesting if someone could post exact details of what is meant by this. If there was, genuinely, approval from UKVI, then there is no reason for him to be refused. My own guess is that this is just the standard 'you have a right to appeal' type of statement that appears carte blanche on all refusal letters. So, perhaps, someone could post exact details of this UKVI testimony. The fact is, people in this country have been crying out for years for tougher immigration laws, but when they get them it becomes a bad thing because speedway riders come under the tougher rules. Expand There is no need to guess Grachan. The wording is quite clear and explicit. Riders/clubs can apply for a discretionary endorsement if there were extenuating circumstances that prevented a rider from hitting the original criteria. In the case of injury, medical evidence must be provided. This was all done. The wording also states that the BSPA will provide in writing full reasoning why the discretionary endorsement was rejected. They haven't done that. Saying he doesn't fit the initial criteria is just dumb. We know that. Edinburgh knew that, Luke Becker knew that. That's why they were applying for a discretionary endorsement. Had the BSPA said we don't feel based upon Beckers overall record he meets the standard required, then job done. Some may not have agreed but a reasoning was given. This has nothing to do with immigration laws, it is to do with the BSPA being unable to do their jobs professionally.. again. Edited February 2, 2018 by BWitcher 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grachan Posted February 2, 2018 Report Share Posted February 2, 2018 On 2/2/2018 at 10:44 AM, BWitcher said: There is no need to guess Grachan. The wording is quite clear and explicit. Riders/clubs can apply for a discretionary endorsement if there were extenuating circumstances that prevented a rider from hitting the original criteria. In the case of injury, medical evidence must be provided. This was all done. The wording also states that the BSPA will provide in writing full reasoning why the discretionary endorsement was rejected. They haven't done that. Saying he doesn't fit the initial criteria is just dumb. We know that. Edinburgh knew that, Luke Becker knew that. That's why they were applying for a discretionary endorsement. Had the BSPA said we don't feel based upon Beckers overall record he meets the standard required, then job done. Some may not have agreed but a reasoning was given. Expand That's fine. They applied for a discretionary endorsement. It failed. It doesn't say it will be granted. Just that they can apply. Surely it is better just to follow the rule to the letter barring something exceptional. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted February 2, 2018 Report Share Posted February 2, 2018 (edited) On 2/2/2018 at 10:47 AM, Grachan said: That's fine. They applied for a discretionary endorsement. It failed. It doesn't say it will be granted. Just that they can apply. Surely it is better just to follow the rule to the letter barring something exceptional. Expand Is this really such a difficult concept to understand? It clearly states that should it be rejected the reasoning would be given. Saying it didn't meet the initial criteria is not a reason, that's the whole purpose of making the application. Nobody, not even Edinburgh or Luke Becker is complaining it has been rejected. They are complaining because no reason has been given. Transparency, that is what people want and once again it is lacking. Edited February 2, 2018 by BWitcher 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badge Posted February 2, 2018 Report Share Posted February 2, 2018 On 2/2/2018 at 11:17 AM, BWitcher said: Is this really such a difficult concept to understand? It clearly states that should it be rejected the reasoning would be given. Saying it didn't meet the initial criteria is not a reason, that's the whole purpose of making the application. Nobody, not even Edinburgh or Luke Becker is complaining it has been rejected. They are complaining because no reason has been given. Transparency, that is what people want and once again it is lacking. Expand Do we actually know what reason the BSPA gave Edinburgh?? Is it our place to know all the details, or should the update on site just be enough? Visa applications for ALL non EU persons is a minefield and full of legalise, not just speedway riders good or bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted February 2, 2018 Report Share Posted February 2, 2018 (edited) On 2/2/2018 at 11:26 AM, Badge said: Do we actually know what reason the BSPA gave Edinburgh?? Is it our place to know all the details, or should the update on site just be enough? Visa applications for ALL non EU persons is a minefield and full of legalise, not just speedway riders good or bad. Expand Edinburgh have already confirmed what they have been told, as has Steve Evans, the USA team manager and the rider himself. They haven't been given a reason. Yes, we all know the application process is a minefield and lessons were learned no doubt over the Ty Proctor situation. As such the BSPA should be quite clear, this is the criteria, if you don't fit THAT IS IT. End of story. Leaving the door open as they are doing is simply continuing their traditional approach of.. depends who is asking/paying/loaning us a rider. So on the one hand the BSPA could be deemed to be doing the correct thing.. yet somehow they still manage to turn it into adverse publicity!! Edited February 2, 2018 by BWitcher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronScorpion Posted February 2, 2018 Report Share Posted February 2, 2018 On 2/2/2018 at 1:46 AM, scotchopper said: So the only question outstanding I would ask is if it was a different team in the league, e.g. Scunthorpe, he was signing for would the answer be different....... I think almost certainly YES and shame on those who made this decision. Expand Who was the other rider that was mentioned that was refused entry? A certain Ryan Douglas, who has ridden for Scunthorpe since he came over to our shores & would, if possible, been riding for the Scorpions, again, in 2018. It is, also, noted that other teams were interested in him if he was available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazc Posted February 2, 2018 Report Share Posted February 2, 2018 On 2/2/2018 at 1:42 PM, IronScorpion said: Who was the other rider that was mentioned that was refused entry? A certain Ryan Douglas, who has ridden for Scunthorpe since he came over to our shores & would, if possible, been riding for the Scorpions, again, in 2018. It is, also, noted that other teams were interested in him if he was available. Expand And he didn't meet the criteria , i don't see many if any Scunthoroe fans shouting about agendas conspiracies etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronScorpion Posted February 2, 2018 Report Share Posted February 2, 2018 On 2/1/2018 at 4:53 PM, BWitcher said: Conveniently missing out the salient part there Lucifer whereby it states: "The BSPA will consider applications for discretionary endorsements for riders who do not meet the above requirements on an individual discretionary basis. Decisions will be made by the BSPA Management Committee who will consider written applications from the club and/or rider concerned. The Management Committee will give written reasons for their decision. Factors to be taken into consideration will be: Whether the riders record in speedway has been at the highest level and they will contribute significantly to the development of the sport. Whether exceptional factors prevented the rider from meeting the aforementioned endorsement requirements" Expand Does this part mean that Scunthorpe or any other club, could have tried to sign R Douglas for 2018? Ryan did not achieve one of the main parts to apply for a visa(a 7point average) so end of! There is a lager advert about, Carlsberg with the wording "Probably the best lager in the world" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted February 2, 2018 Report Share Posted February 2, 2018 On 2/2/2018 at 2:01 PM, IronScorpion said: Does this part mean that Scunthorpe or any other club, could have tried to sign R Douglas for 2018? Ryan did not achieve one of the main parts to apply for a visa(a 7point average) so end of! There is a lager advert about, Carlsberg with the wording "Probably the best lager in the world" Expand Quite simply yes, anyone could put an application in but of course it would need to have a strong case backing it. Again, that isn't the discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted February 2, 2018 Report Share Posted February 2, 2018 On 2/2/2018 at 1:48 PM, Gazc said: And he didn't meet the criteria , i don't see many if any Scunthoroe fans shouting about agendas conspiracies etc. Expand Correct, neither did Becker. That's why a discretionary endorsement is applied for. So what was the argument behind Douglas applying for a discretionary endorsement? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazc Posted February 2, 2018 Report Share Posted February 2, 2018 On 2/2/2018 at 2:15 PM, BWitcher said: Correct, neither did Becker. That's why a discretionary endorsement is applied for. So what was the argument behind Douglas applying for a discretionary endorsement? Expand Nobody has to tell us anything on here it really is as simple as that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hulvik Posted February 2, 2018 Report Share Posted February 2, 2018 (edited) When it comes to visas it's funny how the minority sports like speedway always have trouble when it comes to non EU residents. You never hear of an overseas footballer in the Premier league having a visa application turned down Edited February 2, 2018 by hulvik spelling 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekker Posted February 2, 2018 Report Share Posted February 2, 2018 On 2/2/2018 at 11:35 AM, BWitcher said: Yes, we all know the application process is a minefield and lessons were learned no doubt over the Ty Proctor situation. As such the BSPA should be quite clear, this is the criteria, if you don't fit THAT IS IT. End of story. Leaving the door open as they are doing is simply continuing their traditional approach of.. depends who is asking/paying/loaning us a rider. Expand the lack of clarification is probably due to a "party" with influence in the process fancies his chances of signing Becker. You can guess the usual suspects.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmuncie Posted February 2, 2018 Report Share Posted February 2, 2018 On 2/2/2018 at 2:19 PM, Gazc said: Nobody has to tell us anything on here it really is as simple as that. Expand Nobody has to tell us anything on here but the rule book does state that the parties to the appeal will be given the outcome in writing with reasons for the decision on this instance that has not happened so the BSPA are in breach of their own rule book Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyretrax Posted February 2, 2018 Report Share Posted February 2, 2018 On 2/2/2018 at 2:43 PM, hulvik said: When it comes to visas it's funny how the minority sports like speedway always have trouble when it comes to non EU residents. You never hear of an overseas footballer in the Premier league having a visa application turned down Expand Or signing youg players from abroad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badge Posted February 2, 2018 Report Share Posted February 2, 2018 On 2/2/2018 at 2:43 PM, hulvik said: When it comes to visas it's funny how the minority sports like speedway always have trouble when it comes to non EU residents. You never hear of an overseas footballer in the Premier league having a visa application turned down Expand On 2/2/2018 at 3:20 PM, tyretrax said: Or signing youg players from abroad. Expand Probably because they are way over £55,000 annual wage threshold Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazc Posted February 2, 2018 Report Share Posted February 2, 2018 On 2/2/2018 at 3:09 PM, gmuncie said: Nobody has to tell us anything on here but the rule book does state that the parties to the appeal will be given the outcome in writing with reasons for the decision on this instance that has not happened so the BSPA are in breach of their own rule book Expand What does not meet crieria mean reason enough , bottom line everyone can blow out there arse as much or as little as they want it won't change a thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazc Posted February 2, 2018 Report Share Posted February 2, 2018 On 2/2/2018 at 2:48 PM, Dekker said: the lack of clarification is probably due to a "party" with influence in the process fancies his chances of signing Becker. You can guess the usual suspects.... Expand Delusional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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