Do We Still Need The Play-offs

[orion]

Agree.

 

I doubt it... as teams usually increase support when they are successful.

so if there were runaway leaders how would all the club's get there money back

[Midland Red]

Yet again nearly every final in every sport put the price up for a final but in speedway its some how a crime even thou clubs need every penny they can get to survive .

It's to pay for the fireworks, and the hot showers for visiting riders

see Poole v Coventry!!!!

[The White Knight]

The thing that's coming over loud and clear is that play off matches see riders giving 100%. I cannot argue with that after witnessing my first ever play off at the NSS last year. It was one of my most enjoyable nights of speedway in nearly half a century of watching the sport.

 

The flip side is that other meetings are run with riders not giving their all, I can't argue with that either and this is the problem.

 

Years ago many teams knew from day one that they weren't going to top the table but the pecking order especially with local rivals was still a focus. Riders wanted to perform for THEIR club no matter what and fans wanted to watch them. Your place in the table was as important at the last meeting as it was for the first.

 

Now you either qualify or you don't.

 

Fans now have a mental benchmark for what is "good" speedway, speedway worth going out for. The inevitable consequence of this is they can feel (most) other meetings just aren't worth the bother.

 

The question is does the extra? attendance immediately before and during play offs make up for the rest of the year?

Overall - probably not.

[Fromafar]

The thing that's coming over loud and clear is that play off matches see riders giving 100%. I cannot argue with that after witnessing my first ever play off at the NSS last year. It was one of my most enjoyable nights of speedway in nearly half a century of watching the sport.

The flip side is that other meetings are run with riders not giving their all, I can't argue with that either and this is the problem.

Years ago many teams knew from day one that they weren't going to top the table but the pecking order especially with local rivals was still a focus. Riders wanted to perform for THEIR club no matter what and fans wanted to watch them. Your place in the table was as important at the last meeting as it was for the first.

Now you either qualify or you don't.

Fans now have a mental benchmark for what is "good" speedway, speedway worth going out for. The inevitable consequence of this is they can feel (most) other meetings just aren't worth the bother.

The question is does the extra? attendance immediately before and during play offs make up for the rest of the year?

A lot of riders start protecting their average once their Team goes out of the running for aPlay -Off place.IMO.

[Tsunami]

A lot of riders start protecting their average once their Team goes out of the running for aPlay -Off place.IMO.

I agree it can happen, but not on a wide scale. Most riders are still needing money for food, family and bikes and just like racing. All sports have that few who won't give their all leading up to a big final, or end of season looking forward to their holidays.

[orion]

 

The question is does the extra? attendance immediately before and during play offs make up for the rest of the year?

A Better question is if one team runs away with the league why would any fans bar the die hards watch any of the other matches ..it's amazing to think that fans think that with clubs seasons being over in may or early june that somehow crowds would go up overall if we went back to the old format because somehow riders and fans would be proud to finished 4th, 5th, 6th or 7th .

[Vincent Blachshadow]

A Better question is if one team runs away with the league why would any fans bar the die hards watch any of the other matches ..it's amazing to think that fans think that with clubs seasons being over in may or early june that somehow crowds would go up overall if we went back to the old format because somehow riders and fans would be proud to finished 4th, 5th, 6th or 7th .

 

Once upon a time they did, yes. Fans realised one team comes top, one comes bottom, and the rest finish somewhere in between and the crowds came to watch regardless of where their team finished. I'm sure there's a few on here that can tell tales of heaving stadia when the bottom two teams were racing, let alone the top two. They came because they wanted to watch four blokes on brakeless motorbikes and league positions were relatively unimportant although the visit by the team at the top did usually draw the biggest gate after the local derby matches.

 

But times are different now and its a shame that play-offs have to be held just to give four teams two or four more matches and (usually) bigger attendances with higher entrance fees. This is a subject which crops up on this forum most seasons and the same posters post the same reasons for and against with most of the pros going for the financial angle of up to four bonus matches after a prolonged qualifying competition and the antis citing the unfairness of a team finishing in 2nd 3rd or 4th place somehow being crowned Champions.

 

I'm firmly in the anti camp and, following no sport other than several forms of motorcycle racing, don't give a toss what other sports do at the end of their seasons. I'd just like the promoters to come up with something that helps all the teams get that bit more survival cash rather than just four of them and if they must have play-offs get another award for the winners.

Edited September 14, 2017 by Vincent Blackshadow

[waiheke1]

But it's not just 4 that get rewards? The teams in 5th and6th will also have more to race for in the chase for the playoffs. And even 7th and 8th will have something at stake for longer

[orion]

Once upon a time they did, yes. Fans realised one team comes top, one comes bottom, and the rest finish somewhere in between and the crowds came to watch regardless of where their team finished. I'm sure there's a few on here that can tell tales of heaving stadia when the bottom two teams were racing, let alone the top two. They came because they wanted to watch four blokes on brakeless motorbikes and league positions were relatively unimportant although the visit by the team at the top did usually draw the biggest gate after the local derby matches.

 

But times are different now and its a shame that play-offs have to be held just to give four teams two or four more matches and (usually) bigger attendances with higher entrance fees. This is a subject which crops up on this forum most seasons and the same posters post the same reasons for and against with most of the pros going for the financial angle of up to four bonus matches after a prolonged qualifying competition and the antis citing the unfairness of a team finishing in 2nd 3rd or 4th place somehow being crowned Champions.

 

I'm firmly in the anti camp and, following no sport other than several forms of motorcycle racing, don't give a toss what other sports do at the end of their seasons. I'd just like the promoters to come up with something that helps all the teams get that bit more survival cash rather than just four of them and if they must have play-offs get another award for the winners.

That is not how life or sport works .you do well you get the rewards or you might as well not even ride for any points or have match points .maybe in the Wimbledon they should give the same prize money to the players who got knocked out in the first round to the player who wins the event .

[Trees]

The playoffs are great if the team that tops the league wins.....

 

If we celebrated the league win and then had play offs it would take something away from them BUT it would be fair for the league toppers, they deserve a trophy for coming top too imo.

Edited September 15, 2017 by Trees

[montie]

IN a word yes we do need them

 

i see folks point about top of the league should be champions etc but there is no doubt the season is kept alive by having the chase for the play offs which is a good thing

 

Also to finish in the top 4 can be expensive for the club,which ever league they are in so the chance to get some bumper crowds and claw a few quid back is handy

[Vincent Blachshadow]

That is not how life or sport works .you do well you get the rewards or you might as well not even ride for any points or have match points .maybe in the Wimbledon they should give the same prize money to the players who got knocked out in the first round to the player who wins the event .

 

I fail to see the relevance of how prize money is apportioned in an individual knock-out competition to anything in speedway, but if you're talking prize money for league finishing position then certainly, in football's Championship, the team finishing third gets more than the team finishing fourth, who get more than the team finishing fifth, who get more than the team finishing 6th, regardless of who eventually wins promotion through the play-offs. So 'you do well you get the rewards' works equally well without play-offs - that's what talent money is for.

Edited September 15, 2017 by Vincent Blackshadow

[BWitcher]

Sadly its probably like Sweden where they brought it in and the negative effect was immediate.

 

 

Fred does like to continually trot out this line, which of course is utterly false.

 

Here’s the data for the Elitserien:

av attendance

1994 1009

1995 1135

1996 1089

1997 1137

1998 1172

1999 1796

Play-offs introduced

av attendance excluding play-offs

2000 2261

2001 2781

2002 2678

2003 2847

2004 2864

2005 3029

2006 2602

2007 2742

Play-off final attendances

2000 12242 & 7464

2001 8639 & 9080

2002 5940 & 8035

2003 5468 & 8426

2004 5709 & 7526

2005 8703 & 7264

2006 7901 & 5899

2007 9398 & 8564

 

 

[orion]

 

I fail to see the relevance of how prize money is apportioned in an individual knock-out competition to anything in speedway, but if you're talking prize money for league finishing position then certainly, in football's Championship, the team finishing third gets more than the team finishing fourth, who get more than the team finishing fifth, who get more than the team finishing 6th, regardless of who eventually wins promotion through the play-offs. So 'you do well you get the rewards' works equally well without play-offs - that's what talent money is for.

? so seeing that the league can't even get a sponsor who would pay this prize money in speedway for coming 5th 6th and 7th

[bellevueace]

 

If you were not going to finish top, they would still have been meaningless without the play-offs.

 

However, given how close the top three were this year I don't buy that you weren't going to finish top and this year is an exception in that if there weren't any playoffs the race for the title would have been fantastic. Things would I am sure have played out differently too.

 

Because if your not going to finish top that's out of reach but you have qualified for a play off place the rest of the matches are academic, you are right they would still be meaningless without the play offs too but the play offs were supposed to eradicate meaningless meetings, which they never will for the struggling clubs ie Leicester who were never in contention. With only 8 clubs half the league qualify, if we had say an 18 team league like we used to have half the teams would be riding the latter half of the season with nothing to ride for anyway.

[orion]

 

Because if your not going to finish top that's out of reach but you have qualified for a play off place the rest of the matches are academic, you are right they would still be meaningless without the play offs too but the play offs were supposed to eradicate meaningless meetings, which they never will for the struggling clubs ie Leicester who were never in contention. With only 8 clubs half the league qualify, if we had say an 18 team league like we used to have half the teams would be riding the latter half of the season with nothing to ride for anyway.

Who said the play offs were going to eradicate meaningless matches ? no matter what sport that is never going to happen ..who said that ? what they do is make more matches not meaningless and keep more clubs seasons alive as well as giving the clubs who have done well a chance of a decent crowd at the end of season and a much needed pay out

[moxey63]

The Play-Offs have merely replaced the importance of the Knock-Out Cup.

 

I doubt very much that attendances actually increase for a table match featuring two Play-Off candidates any differently than comparing figures when two title-challengers met before the pre-Play-Off times. On the other hand, clubs without a chance of making the Play-Off cut probably have attendances comparable back in the day to also-rans in a proper league system, if you go on percentages.

 

But now, revenue must be lost as practically a month is wiped from the season in October, as all other team competitions seems meaningless.

 

From a personal view, I remember the feeling in 2005 when Belle Vue played Coventry in the PO FInal. The next week was the KO Cup Final, an anti-climatic feeling, after the Lord Mayor's show... and that, despite Aces winning the first KO Cup since 1975 (that's 30 years)!

[BWitcher]

No Flange, my lack of ability is not astonishing.

 

Unfortunately you are trying to be clever without the required understanding of the principles.

 

You are trying to base your example on the 'theory' that the crowds in Sweden would have continued to improve at the rate they did from 1998-1999. Even someone with no mathematical pedigree would understand that is a nonsensical theory otherwise crowds would soon reach ridiculous figures that stadiums couldn't hold.

In addition, when conducting any mathematical analysis, anomalies are generally discounted. In this case we have five years of crowd figures pre-playoffs with crowds ranging from 1009-1172. Then one year at 1796. The 1796 is clearly not representative of the usual attendance pre-playoffs.

The reality is simple.

Average crowd in the six years prior to the play-offs: 1223

 

Average crowd in the eight years after play-offs were introduced: 2725.5

 

Reality is crowds after the playoffs were more than double those prior.

 

It is absolutely absurd to suggest the playoffs had an immediate negative impact on crowds in Sweden.

 

That is of course without considering the bumper attendances for the finals.

 

[BWitcher]

Unbelievable!

 

The first point is the only one that makes sense except the crowds were only around 2000. While Swedish stadiums may only hold a few thousand and could max out I doubt it, but at least you've taken on board the pre qualifier and cup format increases.

 

I've been through the 'anomalies' with you before and accepted that they can be ignored but just like last time you ignored the 'anomalies' before the doh! moment but included all the 'anomalies' in your average?

 

It gets worse! You really don't understand this bit do you? 2,4,6,8,10, doh!,11,12,13,14,15, you are actually saying the bit after the doh! moment is better because the average is higher, you even did the sums to prove it!!!! This statement alone is so stupid that anything else you have to say cannot be taken seriously can it?

 

The 'bumper crowds' for the finals make a tiny impact on the overall average attendance for the full season and just doesn't come close to making up for the losses due the the qualifier and cup format.

 

Get someone who understands simple arithmetic to explain it because you haven't got a scooby.

 

Ok, as per your insistence we will remove the 'anomaly' figure of 1796.

 

That now gives us an average attendance of 1108 pre playoffs.

 

We already know the average attendance after they were introduced was 2725.

 

To keep it simple we will assume each person attending pays £10.

 

So pre play offs clubs were bringing in £11,080 per match

After play offs introduced clubs were bringing in £27,250 per match.

 

Interesting 'losses'.

 

Given the standard eight team Swedish league, 7 home matches, clubs brought in on average £113,190 more per season after playoffs were brought in... plus the £50,000-£100,000 for two of the teams in the play off final which you say makes a tiny impact...

[The White Knight]

 

Ok, as per your insistence we will remove the 'anomaly' figure of 1796.

 

That now gives us an average attendance of 1108 pre playoffs.

 

We already know the average attendance after they were introduced was 2725.

 

To keep it simple we will assume each person attending pays £10.

 

So pre play offs clubs were bringing in £11,080 per match

After play offs introduced clubs were bringing in £27,250 per match.

 

Interesting 'losses'.

 

Given the standard eight team Swedish league, 7 home matches, clubs brought in on average £113,190 more per season after playoffs were brought in... plus the £50,000-£100,000 for two of the teams in the play off final which you say makes a tiny impact...

I'm enjoying this.........................

 

Eagerly awaiting the next Episode.

 

Over to you Fred..................................