False dawn Posted September 9, 2017 Report Share Posted September 9, 2017 No, it's not that old chestnut about reducing teams to 6 riders. It's more by way of an analysis of what's happened this year. Now let me say straight away that this is not an exhaustive analysis, rather it's a breakdown of 95 meeting results that I had "readily to hand". To date there have been about 270 league meetings (Premiership and Championship) so my sample is significant, representing as it does, about a third of the total. My interest is in the number and frequency of the use of guests and rider replacement. Of the 95 meetings. 19 had no guests or rider replacement. Not a brilliant statistic as this means that 80% of all meetings had at least one guest or RR. At the other end of the scale there were 2 meetings when there were a total of 7 riders missing (1 with 5 guests and 2 RRs and 1 with 6 guests and 1 RR). I hope these represent a record and not one to be repeated or beaten. I hesitate to quote averages but I do believe they indicate something. A total of 121 guests were used or 1.27, on average, per meeting. Rider replacement was used on 73 occasions or 0.77, on average, per meeting. Or to put it another way, on average, there were just over 2 riders missing or 1 per team for every meeting. Therefore, in a way, we already have 6 man teams. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted September 9, 2017 Report Share Posted September 9, 2017 No, it's not that old chestnut about reducing teams to 6 riders. It's more by way of an analysis of what's happened this year. Now let me say straight away that this is not an exhaustive analysis, rather it's a breakdown of 95 meeting results that I had "readily to hand". To date there have been about 270 league meetings (Premiership and Championship) so my sample is significant, representing as it does, about a third of the total. My interest is in the number and frequency of the use of guests and rider replacement. Of the 95 meetings. 19 had no guests or rider replacement. Not a brilliant statistic as this means that 80% of all meetings had at least one guest or RR. At the other end of the scale there were 2 meetings when there were a total of 7 riders missing (1 with 5 guests and 2 RRs and 1 with 6 guests and 1 RR). I hope these represent a record and not one to be repeated or beaten. I hesitate to quote averages but I do believe they indicate something. A total of 121 guests were used or 1.27, on average, per meeting. Rider replacement was used on 73 occasions or 0.77, on average, per meeting. Or to put it another way, on average, there were just over 2 riders missing or 1 per team for every meeting. Therefore, in a way, we already have 6 man teams. When you put it like that it does seem logical. An interesting take on those statistics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theboss Posted September 10, 2017 Report Share Posted September 10, 2017 (edited) I like 6 man teams and these stats prove why they work. Good job Edited September 10, 2017 by jchapman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted September 10, 2017 Report Share Posted September 10, 2017 (edited) Obviously six man teams have been tried before but judging by the observations above may well be the time to re-introduce the concept. Edited September 10, 2017 by steve roberts 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phillwhitewasmad Posted September 10, 2017 Report Share Posted September 10, 2017 Six man teams 5 rides each has to be the way forward as stated the majority of meetings are run with this format. If a rider gets injured the rider above or below can take his rides, if it's the lowest averaged rider injured the rider above or a nominated number 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted September 10, 2017 Report Share Posted September 10, 2017 (edited) No, it's not that old chestnut about reducing teams to 6 riders. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy that if you reduce team sizes, you reduce opportunities and the pool of available riders will shrink. It might address a short-term shortage, but unless it goes hand-in-hand with developing new riders, then it just creates a downward spiral. It also doesn't reduce costs except removing the travel expenses of one rider, as the other riders have to take more rides to cover the heats, and I suspect it's likely that it won't solve the injury issue as the other riders are statistically then more likely to be get injured. In fact, it would then make things even worse as there's now one less rider per rider to take R/R rides etc... Edited September 10, 2017 by Humphrey Appleby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ch958 Posted September 10, 2017 Report Share Posted September 10, 2017 It's a self-fulfilling prophecy that if you reduce team sizes, you reduce opportunities and the pool of available riders will shrink. It might address a short-term shortage, but unless it goes hand-in-hand with developing new riders, then it just creates a downward spiral. It also doesn't reduce costs except removing the travel expenses of one rider, as the other riders have to take more rides to cover the heats, and I suspect it's likely that it won't solve the injury issue as the other riders are statistically then more likely to be get injured. In fact, it would then make things even worse as there's now one less rider per rider to take R/R rides etc... seems to work elsewhere and you save more than travel costs as would think all riders have a guaranteed fee however small so you will lose that too I thought the only reason this was being considered was to make up a perceived shortfall if du/dd was restricted or abolished myself I believe there is no shortage and that there are juniors and foreigners to utilise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted September 10, 2017 Report Share Posted September 10, 2017 seems to work elsewhere Where else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ch958 Posted September 10, 2017 Report Share Posted September 10, 2017 I believe the Danes operate five man teams - clearly thats not six but nor is it 7! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted September 10, 2017 Report Share Posted September 10, 2017 I believe the Danes operate five man teams - clearly thats not six but nor is it 7! Yep, but the Danish League is a shadow of its former self, hence arguably it's not working. Okay, in its heyday the Danish League did have 5-6 rider teams, but that was in a 4TT format so not completely comparable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triple.H. Posted September 10, 2017 Report Share Posted September 10, 2017 Six man teams 5 rides each has to be the way forward as stated the majority of meetings are run with this format. If a rider gets injured the rider above or below can take his rides, if it's the lowest averaged rider injured the rider above or a nominated number 7 We can't get the powers that be to say with a 7 rider team if you use R/R that you have to name a number 8 IMO they won't name a number 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perton Wolf Posted September 11, 2017 Report Share Posted September 11, 2017 Good points in the original post about the ridiculous number of R/R and Guest appearances this season but I'd rather Premiership teams look at trialing/implementing a squad system before moving to 6 riders. Try squads with 7 and see what happens. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moxey63 Posted September 11, 2017 Report Share Posted September 11, 2017 When six-man teams were introduced in the late 90s, sides still had a tendency to rely on guests and rider replacement. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted September 11, 2017 Report Share Posted September 11, 2017 When six-man teams were introduced in the late 90s, sides still had a tendency to rely on guests and rider replacement. I'm guessing that it was introduced to save costs but only lasted the one (?) season if I recall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted September 11, 2017 Report Share Posted September 11, 2017 When six-man teams were introduced in the late 90s, sides still had a tendency to rely on guests and rider replacement. This will continue unless we can conjure up more Riders from somewhere. That is one of the reasons that I believe that we cannot (as much as I would like to in certain cases) get rid of the Aussies. That would further denude our Clubs (not Teams, it is arguable if they exist any more) of badly needed Riders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevePark Posted September 11, 2017 Report Share Posted September 11, 2017 I'm guessing that it was introduced to save costs but only lasted the one (?) season if I recall. 1997 in the PL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
False dawn Posted September 11, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 11, 2017 I hope no one saw my analysis as a justification for moving to 6 man teams. If nothing else changes I think the percentage of guests and RR used would remain about the same meaning we would rhen move, effectively, to 5 man teams. Averages are, as I alluded to, a course measure. Can a rider with a 4 point average sometimes score 8 or 0? Well of course he can. But measure his performance over 10 matches or move and you would ecpect him to score about 4. This is the same. If there 2 riders "missing" on average per meeting do we expect a guest or rider replacement every time we turn up? Well there are more scientific answers to that question other than straight averages. But what is your experience? 19 meetings out 95 where both teams were fully manned with their own riders. Surely the most damning statistic of all. We all moan, yes. But we're almost conditioned to expecting the odd guest/RR or 2. These "facilities" should be the exception, not the norm. We have a rider injured or riding in the U21s tobnight, well okay. We have multiple riders riding for someone else. Excuse me, that cannot be right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moxey63 Posted September 11, 2017 Report Share Posted September 11, 2017 I'm guessing that it was introduced to save costs but only lasted the one (?) season if I recall. 1997 and 1998, Steve.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted September 11, 2017 Report Share Posted September 11, 2017 1997 and 1998, Steve.... Wasn't 1997 the year that the away team adopted the numbers 7 - 12? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike7164 Posted September 11, 2017 Report Share Posted September 11, 2017 1997 and 1998, Steve.... No 1998 was 7 man teams in the PL! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.