Sidney the robin Posted September 9, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 9, 2017 Completely and utterly biased...but, aren't we all? Morton is the most capped of all these and won everything there is to win individual and as a team internationally and domestically bar the World Title. Yep, he gets overshadowed by PC having raced in the same era. But he beats all these guys on longevity and his CV is at least equal to Simmo and better than the rest.No he is number five quite easily for me and his CV is not as good as Simmo and did he score a maximum in a peak WTC year like Wilson ? No also was he placed in a WF like Louis NO. Hi Sid Thank you for that. My problem with Carter is that I never liked him and, to a point, have allowed that to colour my view of him as a Rider. Plus all the other Riders you quoted were Team men. I always considered that Carter was all about Carter. Hence my positioning him as I have. I hope that explains my position. I know there are people who will disagree with my reasoning, but I have put it as I see it. Yes can see your point of view WK and at club level Carter was quite a selfish rider for usually a weak Halifax team riding for England he was different. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatface Posted September 10, 2017 Report Share Posted September 10, 2017 No he is number five quite easily for me and his CV is not as good as Simmo and did he score a maximum in a peak WTC year like Wilson ? No also was he placed in a WF like Louis NO. On the other hand....he won a BLRC unlike Simmo or Wilson (when it really meant something), he made more appearances for England than all the rest. He top scored for England in successive World Cup finals, unlike all the rest. Like Carter and Wilson, he never placed in a World Final, but he did reach more World Finals than all the rest. And if placing in a World Final is the barometer, would you rank Gordon Kennett and Les Collins (same era) above Morton, Wilson and Carter? He also won a major World Championship qualifying round in addition to the British Final unlike all the rest... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted September 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 10, 2017 It did show over those few years WK something you remember Carter did fall out with alot of riders ie) PC and at that time i took Collins side.Peter was a rider everyone respected and even Eric Boocock said if only Carter could of been less brash with it looking back i do believe Carter would of made a brilliant world champion 82 he was robbed by a crazy rule. On the other hand....he won a BLRC unlike Simmo or Wilson (when it really meant something), he made more appearances for England than all the rest. He top scored for England in successive World Cup finals, unlike all the rest. Like Carter and Wilson, he never placed in a World Final, but he did reach more World Finals than all the rest. And if placing in a World Final is the barometer, would you rank Gordon Kennett and Les Collins (same era) above Morton, Wilson and Carter? He also won a major World Championship qualifying round in addition to the British Final unlike all the rest...GREAT POST and you really have a strong case "falcace" for me i suppose i sometimes get blinded by riders who did not quite do it but were class acts.Wilson, E.Boocock,Betts,Ashby,Adams,Sigalos,P.Crump all come into that category.Also you see loads more of Mort than me and at Hyde Rd was a sight to be seen he was one of a few who could beat Nielsen on merit.Mort's pass of Carter in the Northern riders Championship is one of the greatest passes i have ever seen top class a top rider TOP bloke to. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted September 10, 2017 Report Share Posted September 10, 2017 Is this some sort of trick question? Going on what they achieved: 1. Carter 2. Simmons 3. Louis 4. Morton 5. Wilson It sure why you think it's a trick question. And if based purely on achievements why KC would clearly be number one. For me it's largely about what he was good enough to achieve but didn't (ie. arguably the only one good enough to be world champ, though Simmo fans might argue that he also was) rather than the titles he did win, though the back to back BLRC maximums was clearly an impressive feat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foamfence Posted September 10, 2017 Report Share Posted September 10, 2017 1 Carter 2 Wilson 3 Simmons 4 Morton 5 Louis They were all respected by the top overseas riders but Carter was probably the most feared and he would ride with severe injuries which wouldn't have been allowed today. Wilson was very solid at any level. Simmons was sometimes referred to as the best rider never to have been World Champion but his cheating involvement has tainted his (and some others) image. Morton was a little battler but he was exceptionally gifted at bemoaning his lot and was mostly in the shadow of Peter Collins. Louis rode for us at Halifax, I don't know how good he'd been at Ipswich but for us he was little more than a gating tart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted September 10, 2017 Report Share Posted September 10, 2017 Judging Louis based on his Halifax days is a bit like judging Peter Collins only on his 82-86 seasons - totally unrepresentative of the rider at his peak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foamfence Posted September 10, 2017 Report Share Posted September 10, 2017 Judging Louis based on his Halifax days is a bit like judging Peter Collins only on his 82-86 seasons - totally unrepresentative of the rider at his peak. I wasn't that impressed with him at his peak either, what I meant was that he might have been a different rider at Ipswich than he was elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted September 10, 2017 Report Share Posted September 10, 2017 I wasn't that impressed with him at his peak either, what I meant was that he might have been a different rider at Ipswich than he was elsewhere. John Louis was a master of slowing down races and making room for his partner and he wasn't my favourite Brit at the time personally but you can't deny his team ethic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted September 10, 2017 Report Share Posted September 10, 2017 (edited) I can't believe that people are simply using the BLRC to support their claims for Morton... Yes, it was a great achievement (albeit on his home track), but is that it? And Sidney, you really think that Willie's WTC max would elevate him above Mort? Come on, let us look at what else he won; things that everyone seems to have forgotten (other than a vague mention in passing by falcace). First was the 1978 VW/Daily Mirror GP. He won the final, and overall, against Simmons, Louis, and a host of other top names. Then - and for me, THIS was the highlight of his career - there was his triumph at the 1980 Inter-Continental Final. In a meeting that was generally considered to be tougher than the World Final, Mort turned in a superb display of racing to top the list. In view of this brace of victories (which everybody else seems to ignore), along with the other achievements mentioned above, I would DEFINITELY put him no lower than third in the list. Oh, and yes, I hated Carter, but I can differentiate between "ability" and "favouritism"... 1 - Simmons 2 - Carter 3 - Morton 4 - Louis 5 - Wilson Steve Edited September 10, 2017 by chunky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foamfence Posted September 10, 2017 Report Share Posted September 10, 2017 John Louis was a master of slowing down races and making room for his partner and he wasn't my favourite Brit at the time personally but you can't deny his team ethic. I didn't. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted September 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 10, 2017 I can't believe that people are simply using the BLRC to support their claims for Morton... Yes, it was a great achievement (albeit on his home track), but is that it? And Sidney, you really think that Willie's WTC max would elevate him above Mort? Come on, let us look at what else he won; things that everyone seems to have forgotten (other than a vague mention in passing by falcace). First was the 1978 VW/Daily Mirror GP. He won the final, and overall, against Simmons, Louis, and a host of other top names. Then - and for me, THIS was the highlight of his career - there was his triumph at the 1980 Inter-Continental Final. In a meeting that was generally considered to be tougher than the World Final, Mort turned in a superb display of racing to top the list. In view of this brace of victories (which everybody else seems to ignore), along with the other achievements mentioned above, I would DEFINITELY put him no lower than third in the list. Oh, and yes, I hated Carter, but I can differentiate between "ability" and "favouritism"... 1 - Simmons 2 - Carter 3 - Morton 4 - Louis 5 - Wilson Steve I would certainly put your 4/5 Steve in front of Morton because for me at there best in certain years they were in the top few riders in the world.Morton was not ok he won the White City round in 1980 but i never ever considered him good anough to win a WC but his record overall was an outstanding one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted September 10, 2017 Report Share Posted September 10, 2017 I would certainly put your 4/5 Steve in front of Morton because for me at there best in certain years they were in the top few riders in the world.Morton was not ok he won the White City round in 1980 but i never ever considered him good anough to win a WC but his record overall was an outstanding one.Grand Prix champion, BLRC champion, Inter-Continental champion, World Pairs champion, twice WTC top scorer, seven World Final appearances, and he wasn't one of the top riders in the world??? Okay... Steve 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted September 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 10, 2017 Grand Prix champion, BLRC champion, Inter-Continental champion, World Pairs champion, twice WTC top scorer, seven World Final appearances, and he wasn't one of the top riders in the world??? Okay... Steve Yes he was of course, but he was never good anough to win a WC was he better than Louis? ( i was not a fan) maybe did he achieve more than Wilson maybe was he better than those two for me he wasn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatface Posted September 10, 2017 Report Share Posted September 10, 2017 Yes he was of course, but he was never good anough to win a WC was he better than Louis? ( i was not a fan) maybe did he achieve more than Wilson maybe was he better than those two for me he wasn't. none of them were good enough to win a World Title, as it proved! :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatface Posted September 10, 2017 Report Share Posted September 10, 2017 (edited) WF WTC WP BLRC BF WCQ WFA CAPS Carter S x 2 G x1 S x 2 G x 2 G x 2 S x 1 B x 1 S x 4 3 Louis B x 1 G x 3 G x 1 G x 1 G x 1 B x 1 S x 1 4 Morton G x 1 S x 3 B x 1 G x 1 G x 1 S x 2 B x 1 G x 1 S x 1 B x 1 G x 1 S x 1 B x 1 7 128 Simmons S x 1 G x 4 S x 1 G x 3 S x 1 G x 1 B x 3 3 80 Wilson G x 4 S x 1 B x 1 G x 1 S x 1 S x 1 B x 1 G x 1 S x 2 4 WF – World Finals WTC – World Team Cup WP – World Pairs BLRC – British League Riders Championship BF – British Finals WCQ – Major World Championship Qualifying Rounds, eg. Intercontinental, European, Overseas, British-Nordic, Commonwealth WFA – World Final appearances CAPS – International caps Edited September 10, 2017 by falcace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted September 10, 2017 Report Share Posted September 10, 2017 Simmo, in this Group of five woul always be Number One for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted September 10, 2017 Report Share Posted September 10, 2017 (edited) none of them were good enough to win a World Title, as it proved! :-)I just find it a little confusing that Sidney obviously felt that Wilson had a world final win in him? Yes, he was a great rider, but I am not sure that he was in that class. Louis - maybe - but not Willie. Thing is, it is easy to say that somebody IS good enough to win a world title - when they have won one! What about riders that WEREN'T good enough to win one - yet still did. Like Szczakiel, Muller, or Havvy, for example... Because they DID win one, does that make them better than everyone who didn't? Was Szczakiel a better rider than Plech? Was Muller better than Simmons? While it is easy to say that Morton was never going to be world champ, it is easy to say the same about Louis, Wilson, Betts, Ashby, the Boococks, Crump, both Morans, Autrey etc. No, they never did, but on their day, every single one of them WAS good enough... Steve Edited September 11, 2017 by chunky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted September 11, 2017 Report Share Posted September 11, 2017 Interesting to see Egon talking about the 1983 season and saying he won 79 from his 84 heats that year!!! 84 heats seems quite a low number for a season though??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted September 11, 2017 Report Share Posted September 11, 2017 Interesting to see Egon talking about the 1983 season and saying he won 79 from his 84 heats that year!!! 84 heats seems quite a low number for a season though???Well for a start that claim is not accurate. He won 6 from 13 heats in the world pairs. So that is more lost heats than he claimsAnd 2 from 4 in the world team cup And dropped at least one point in the continental final 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted September 11, 2017 Report Share Posted September 11, 2017 Yes,always wary of what he say's or posts.This is the exact wording.... Now again, something some of my super-fans could certainly remember. On the way to the speedway world title 1983. In all four preliminary qualifying races, Pocking, Poland Russia etc, I gave only one point in Poland against Z. Plech. Just so for the so-called Speedway chief editors. Who remembers 1983, the season I won 79 times out of 84 races Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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