In My View By Phil Rising

[steve roberts]

People never had a issue then because the rest of the product was good and we had forums like this and the internet in general ..ive been to speedway for many a year I not heard person moan about the old rule or the new rule while at a match

 

The point being made is the rule being a joke and it bringing us more false results ,not if it's more entertaining. And as I have pointed out the old rule gave us many more false results . The bottom line if the many more important problems were sorted out then on one would really care .

 

So you're suggesting from your post that it wouldn't be an issue today if the sport was in a much healthier state irrespective of whether the ruling is deemed fair or not?

Edited October 18, 2017 by steve roberts

[George Dodds]

I never do. I don't think there should be any Substitutions at all. Speedway is all about Results on the Track. Any, ANY Substitutions/Double Points is a mere contrivance of the Result.

Disagree. I would say it's all about entertainment on the track for those who have paid at the turnstiles.

[balderdash&piffle]

here we go again, SPEEDWAY IS A SIMPLE SPORT. the rules are over complicated and in many cases not totally necessary in their current form.

 

Seven riders per team. 15 heats of 4 riders.

Four riders set off together go anti clockwise for four laps keep turning left.

The first rider over the line is the winner and earns 3 points, the other riders are awarded points accordingly 2nd, 3rd, 4th.

The team with the most points at the end of the meeting is the winner.

 

No T/Rs or T/subs needed, that is just manipulation of the result.

[Sotonian]

 

Away goals in European Club football when the tie is a draw on aggregate

That's nothing like the same thing at all since it is only decisive after full-time.

Now, if the losing team could suddenly declare that the next goal they scored would count double then that would be the same thing.

[George Dodds]

That's nothing like the same thing at all since it is only decisive after full-time.

Now, if the losing team could suddenly declare that the next goal they scored would count double then that would be the same thing.

And it's only used in cup competitions to avoid the need for a replay. Ironically speedway doesn't allow the Tac in cup competitions but does in league matches.

[Guest compost]

Best use of your reserves on a heat by heat basis (rather than Football substitution rule where one player is permanently replaced for another for the remainder of the match) is highly tactical and common in Speedway so if you don't like tactical moves in Speedway does that mean that you don't like it when a reserve is brought in to replace an out-of form teammate or even just to swap reserves around ? Today it seems that having 'strong' reserves is vital - surely that must be for 'tactical reasons' and not just the need to have strong numbers 6 & 7 for heat 2 ?

 

Use of reserves in a tactical manner (and thus giving 'false' results) has been around since the 30s - at a time when guests (other than for challenge matches), r/r and t/s's didn't exist. Presumaby all meetings where a reserve has so been used have been manipulated or contrived then ?

 

Steel hat on.

[foamfence]

Best use of your reserves on a heat by heat basis (rather than Football substitution rule where one player is permanently replaced for another for the remainder of the match) is highly tactical and common in Speedway so if you don't like tactical moves in Speedway does that mean that you don't like it when a reserve is brought in to replace an out-of form teammate or even just to swap reserves around ? Today it seems that having 'strong' reserves is vital - surely that must be for 'tactical reasons' and not just the need to have strong numbers 6 & 7 for heat 2 ?

 

Use of reserves in a tactical manner (and thus giving 'false' results) has been around since the 30s - at a time when guests (other than for challenge matches), r/r and t/s's didn't exist. Presumaby all meetings where a reserve has so been used have been manipulated or contrived then ?

 

Steel hat on.

Reserves are there for replacing other team members, surely everyone accepts that?

[orion]

 

So you're suggesting from your post that it wouldn't be an issue today if the sport was in a much healthier state irrespective of whether the ruling is deemed fair or not?

As I said when we had the stupid and ts rule the crowds were still large as the rest of the format was so good ..as I said I don't like any tac sub - double points rule but it's way down the list in UK speedway problems .

[Guest compost]

Reserves are there for replacing other team members, surely everyone accepts that

 

You could argue that the old t/s rule was also there for 'replacing other team members'. Reserves are just another tactical option available. In fact they can be more potent than any t/s rule as you don't need to be behind to use them and can use them in any heat to affect that heats result. Just pointing out that t/s's aren't the only way to affect the result of a match.

Edited October 18, 2017 by compost

[foamfence]

 

You could argue that the old t/s rule was also there for 'replacing other team members'. Reserves are just another tactical option available. In fact they can be more potent than any t/s rule as you don't need to be behind to use them and can use them in any heat to affect that heats result. Just pointing out that t/s's aren't the only way to affect the result of a match.

Yes but reserves are essential in case of withdrawals, even when we had six man teams there was a system in place if someone withdrew. Tactical's other than reserves were just invented to perpetuate the idea that Speedway isn't a genuine sport but a circus act. It's mainly since the rolling average was introduced that you can get reserves who are better than main body riders.

[StevePark]

I never do. I don't think there should be any Substitutions at all. Speedway is all about Results on the Track. Any, ANY Substitutions/Double Points is a mere contrivance of the Result.

 

And the point of having a team manager would be?? At least with the 'old' tac sub rule, it gave the managers flexibility and made them think about things, unlike now where all they have to do is work out when/if to switch the reserves around, or bring them in for a top 5 rider who is under performing (unless the team is using R/R, of course).

[Fourentee]

This is a tricky one for me. On one hand, I don't like the artificial nature of double-point moves but on the other quite accept that the old tac sub was just as artificial in its way. The former tactical ride off 15m at least gave a balance of risk (that the chosen one would score poorly, not physical risk before anyone starts!) and reward.

To further confuse my outlook, I'm all for a set-up which enhances the challenge to, and influence of, a team manager. Way back when I can remember a Workington/Ellesmere Port match where the move and counter-move of TMs Ron Bagley and Joe Shaw was almost as interesting as the track action.

So I'm pretty confused, basically!

[Gemini]

 

 

....Fourentee...........The former tactical ride off 15m at least gave a balance of risk (that the chosen one would score poorly, not physical risk before anyone starts!) and reward.

 

Think there might be a few refusals to ride from today's top riders. Too much like hard work coming from 15 metres back.

[steve roberts]

I'm just glad that during my thirty plus years following the sport that I didn't analyse the sport in that greater detail and was not critical and/or cynical of a replacement rider facility...whether T/S. Res/R or R/R.

 

I remember many a match when a result was snatched due to a tactical move and the Team Manager attempting to use his resources as best as he could. I also recall matches slipping away due to rider switching and replacement of same by the opposition. One went away from a meeting often feeling elated or deflated but that was the essence of the sport.

 

To me it was part and parcel of the sport and added to the entertainment value and kept us fans on the terraces guessing attempting to pre-empt the next tactical move.

 

How one rejoiced when an opposition tactical switch failed and a rider of lesser ability beat the incoming replacement rider or when a Team Manager declared a starting line up whereby heat leaders were able to ride in any position to combat possible tactical moves or when Team Mangers were able to place whoever in what gate in which to gain a potential advantage...and would we complain on the terraces if we had felt that the Team Manager had played a wrong card during any particular match (as Cyril Maidment experienced on one such occasion!)

Edited October 18, 2017 by steve roberts

[TonyMac]

We believe that Redcar will ride at Sheffield tomorrow night without ANY of their regular team members - so will have a full team of guests.

 

Compare this farce to 1988, when ONLY FOUR guests were used throughout the ENTIRE National League season.

 

The NL's director of operations, Alan Hodder, said at the time: “I think it proves we can get rid of them once and for all.”

[waytogo28]

We believe that Redcar will ride at Sheffield tomorrow night without ANY of their regular team members - so will have a full team of guests.

 

Compare this farce to 1988, when ONLY FOUR guests were used throughout the ENTIRE National League season.

 

The NL's director of operations, Alan Hodder, said at the time: “I think it proves we can get rid of them once and for all.”

 

As we know speedway and the way it is run in the UK has gone backwards in terms of credibility since 1988 ( and that is why so many fans have fled ). Now the Chairman is touting for "more guests"in true Oliver style! Believing it's the way forward.

[cowboy cookie returns?]

We believe that Redcar will ride at Sheffield tomorrow night without ANY of their regular team members - so will have a full team of guests.

 

Compare this farce to 1988, when ONLY FOUR guests were used throughout the ENTIRE National League season.

 

The NL's director of operations, Alan Hodder, said at the time: I think it proves we can get rid of them once and for all.

If that's true Regards Redcar then the writing is well and truly on the wall for this once great sport! The old NL had got it right the only time I remember Ipswich using a guest in there 2 NL seasons was when Andy Galvin rode for us at home against King's Lynn in an inter league challenge.

[stevehone]

 

And the point of having a team manager would be?? At least with the 'old' tac sub rule, it gave the managers flexibility and made them think about things, unlike now where all they have to do is work out when/if to switch the reserves around, or bring them in for a top 5 rider who is under performing (unless the team is using R/R, of course).

 

team managers should be a big part of the team, and i still think they should be able to change the lineup to suit, exactly how they used to for different tracks or teams.

having fixed gate positions, fixed riding order etc, all takes away from a managers job

[Midland Red]

If that's true Regards Redcar then the writing is well and truly on the wall for this once great sport! The old NL had got it right the only time I remember Ipswich using a guest in there 2 NL seasons was when Andy Galvin rode for us at home against King's Lynn in an inter league challenge.

1 Jake Allen (Guest for Ben Barker)

2 David Wallinger (NL Guest for Ellis Perks)

3 R/R Charles Wright

4 Connor Coles (NL Guest for Jonas B Andersen)

5 Josh Auty (Capt) (Guest for Jason Garrity)

6 Ben Morley (Guest for Tobias Busch)

7 Mitchell Davey (Guest for Danny Ayres)

[The White Knight]

1 Jake Allen (Guest for Ben Barker)

2 David Wallinger (NL Guest for Ellis Perks)

3 R/R Charles Wright

4 Connor Coles (NL Guest for Jonas B Andersen)

5 Josh Auty (Capt) (Guest for Jason Garrity)

6 Ben Morley (Guest for Tobias Busch)

7 Mitchell Davey (Guest for Danny Ayres)

Absolutely ridiculous - no wonder the bloody Sport is about knackered.