stevehone Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 ........... and............................? you don't seem to understand do you .. you've said that people keeping away is the problem and clubs will close, yet that is EXACTLY what you're doing over a petty reason. you either want speedway to survive or you don't, and it looks like you don't Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 you don't seem to understand do you .. you've said that people keeping away is the problem and clubs will close, yet that is EXACTLY what you're doing over a petty reason. you either want speedway to survive or you don't, and it looks like you don't Your comments are getting more ridiculous. Of course I want Speedway to survive. The reason I have given up is not petty either, not to my mind anyway - believe me there are plenty more disillusioned Speedway Supporters staying away and for many different reasons. Some of them will be the same as me - in fact I know that to be true. That's the trouble with people like you, you can see nobody's point but your own. Anyway, you know my reasons and you don't agree with me - I can understand that, fair enough. Your continuing reference to is mildly irritating though. I will admit that my absence may, in a very tiny way, be hurting Speedway - but the bloody silly Double Points Rule is hurting me even more Why don't you direct your ire to the people who caused the problem in the first place - the Promoters. As a Track Photographer I can understand that might be difficult for you. But whether you like it or not - that is where the blame lies. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 The double points rule is rubbish. The National League gets on very well without such silliness. We all know the reason why the rule was brought in; to make meetings artificially more exciting for those armchair fans. Now the promoters should listen to the fans who pay at the turnstile: No more double points nonsense. And, while they are at it, sort out the doubling up/guest fiasco. Do that, and you can congratulate the bspa on a successful conference. Spot on - then I can, and will, return to watching Speedway again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 The double points rule is rubbish. The National League gets on very well without such silliness. We all know the reason why the rule was brought in; to make meetings artificially more exciting for those armchair fans. Now the promoters should listen to the fans who pay at the turnstile: No more double points nonsense. And, while they are at it, sort out the doubling up/guest fiasco. Do that, and you can congratulate the bspa on a successful conference. Why do you think the old tac sub rule was used ? the stats show you that the old rule created more false results than the new one but at the time in had no effect on crowd sizes .. Thou I don't any tac rule of any sort people are deluded if they think that crowds are some how going to go up if they take it away . in a sport that has massive problems it's way down the list and if the teams were of good strength and track decent etc etc no one would care a rats arse about it like they never in the days of the old tac sub . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 (edited) Why do you think the old tac sub rule was used ? the stats show you that the old rule created more false results than the new one but at the time in had no effect on crowd sizes .. Thou I don't any tac rule of any sort people are deluded if they think that crowds are some how going to go up if they take it away . in a sport that has massive problems it's way down the list and if the teams were of good strength and track decent etc etc no one would care a rats arse about it like they never in the days of the old tac sub . ...because people didn't think it an issue then. In all my years attending speedway during the 70's, 80's, 90's and early 00's I don't recall many people criticising the old T/S rule...certainly not amongst those that I used to stand with. In fact it was often a talking point with fans trying to pre-empt the Team Manager's next tactical move. It wasn't until the introduction of the 'Double Points' scenario that began to evoke comment amongst some quarters...certainly with those that I attended with! We've been here before but the rule was introduced, if I recall, back in 1955 (?) and stood the test of time. Whether it was deemed fair or not is another matter but it was looked upon as one of the rulings of speedway together with the R/R regulation and Guest Riders (which did cause many a discussion!) Edited October 17, 2017 by steve roberts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 (edited) And also the old tac sub rule invariably brought out yours or the oppositions best riders, eg Collins, Mauger, Olsen, Penhall et al, therefore you saw the best in the world take extra rides, at a time when they weren't on TV 'once a fortnight', and only rode once, maybe twice at the most, at your track, so they still held some 'mystique'.. It could be argued Ht 15 nowadays does that but sadly most of the world's best don't ride over here and many even when they did didn't bother with Ht 15 when the result was a foregone conclusion. You seldom hear nowadays Nige or Kelvin say that a Ht15 could be a GP final like they used to.. For me, the play offs and KO Cup have shown there is no need for them. The best team should win any sport through skill and sometimes luck, not artificially made up contrived results.. Edited October 17, 2017 by mikebv 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midland Red Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 Why do you think the old tac sub rule was used ? the stats show you that the old rule created more false results than the new one but at the time in had no effect on crowd sizes .. Thou I don't any tac rule of any sort people are deluded if they think that crowds are some how going to go up if they take it away . in a sport that has massive problems it's way down the list and if the teams were of good strength and track decent etc etc no one would care a rats arse about it like they never in the days of the old tac sub . Which stats are those? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveallan81 Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 Which stats are those? Orion may possibly be referring to this http://www.speedway-forum.co.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=82765&page=8&do=findComment&comment=2851526 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Central Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 (edited) Orion may possibly be referring to this http://www.speedway-forum.co.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=82765&page=8&do=findComment&comment=2851526 He may well have been. But totally erroneously. Your meticulously researched stats showed that in the two year periods compared. That the old tac sub and the TR resulted in identical proportions of 'false results', as orion calls them. Edited October 17, 2017 by Grand Central Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chadster Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 The old tac sub rule was less offensive because it was very closely linked to what happened in other sports such as football or rugby. Is there another sport which has a double point rule like speedway? I can't think of one.. Tac subs also allowed out of touch riders to be replaced, whereas at the moment you see reports of meetings were a rider is taking 5 or 6 rides and scoring only 2 or 3 points. I can accept that promoters might not want to pay star men for an extra ride but instead of double points perhaps choice of gate positions might be a better tactical option 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 The old tac sub rule was less offensive because it was very closely linked to what happened in other sports such as football or rugby. Is there another sport which has a double point rule like speedway? I can't think of one.. Tac subs also allowed out of touch riders to be replaced, whereas at the moment you see reports of meetings were a rider is taking 5 or 6 rides and scoring only 2 or 3 points. I can accept that promoters might not want to pay star men for an extra ride but instead of double points perhaps choice of gate positions might be a better tactical option Well said Sir. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevePark Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 The old tac sub rule was less offensive because it was very closely linked to what happened in other sports such as football or rugby. Is there another sport which has a double point rule like speedway? I can't think of one.. Tac subs also allowed out of touch riders to be replaced, whereas at the moment you see reports of meetings were a rider is taking 5 or 6 rides and scoring only 2 or 3 points. I can accept that promoters might not want to pay star men for an extra ride but instead of double points perhaps choice of gate positions might be a better tactical option Away goals in European Club football when the tie is a draw on aggregate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 ...because people didn't think it an issue then. In all my years attending speedway during the 70's, 80's, 90's and early 00's I don't recall many people criticising the old T/S rule...certainly not amongst those that I used to stand with. In fact it was often a talking point with fans trying to pre-empt the Team Manager's next tactical move. It wasn't until the introduction of the 'Double Points' scenario that began to evoke comment amongst some quarters...certainly with those that I attended with! We've been here before but the rule was introduced, if I recall, back in 1955 (?) and stood the test of time. Whether it was deemed fair or not is another matter but it was looked upon as one of the rulings of speedway together with the R/R regulation and Guest Riders (which did cause many a discussion!) People never had a issue then because the rest of the product was good and we had forums like this and the internet in general ..ive been to speedway for many a year I not heard person moan about the old rule or the new rule while at a match The point being made is the rule being a joke and it bringing us more false results ,not if it's more entertaining. And as I have pointed out the old rule gave us many more false results . The bottom line if the many more important problems were sorted out then on one would really care . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foamfence Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 People never had a issue then because the rest of the product was good and we had forums like this and the internet in general ..ive been to speedway for many a year I not heard person moan about the old rule or the new rule while at a match The point being made is the rule being a joke and it bringing us more false results ,not if it's more entertaining. And as I have pointed out the old rule gave us many more false results . The bottom line if the many more important problems were sorted out then on one would really care . In your opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 (edited) In your opinion. The old tac rule bringing in more false results is not opinion ..it is fact . Edited October 17, 2017 by orion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foamfence Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 The old tac rule bringing in more false results is not opinion ..it is fact . I was referring to your last line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chadster Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 Any kind of tactical substitution system in any sport will produce a 'false result'. In football, for example, teams with strong squads (usually the bigger clubs) have the capacity to make changes which influence matches much more effectively than the majority of teams and yet no-one decries a football result in which a substitute scores the winner as being a 'false result'. The double points rule contibutes, with guests and doubling up, to an impression of speedway as not quite a serious sport. Of those mentioned, I think doubling up is a more serious issue. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 Any kind of tactical substitution system in any sport will produce a 'false result'. In football, for example, teams with strong squads (usually the bigger clubs) have the capacity to make changes which influence matches much more effectively than the majority of teams and yet no-one decries a football result in which a substitute scores the winner as being a 'false result'. The double points rule contibutes, with guests and doubling up, to an impression of speedway as not quite a serious sport. Of those mentioned, I think doubling up is a more serious issue. Rules are same all everyone in football.l in any sport including speedway people with the most money have the better teams but the rules and how you used them are the same for everyone ...only letting teams that are losing to bring on subs would be laugh out of town in football but somehow in Speedway it was ok ...I don't like double points but don't try to defend the old tac sub rule because it was just a bigger joke . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trees Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 The double points rule does bring more entertainment as the riders in that race are under more pressure to get an 8-1 and try harder and/or have to tactically slow to let their partner through etc etc I like the idea of teams who are down on points choosing gate positions ......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 Rules are same all everyone in football.l in any sport including speedway people with the most money have the better teams but the rules and how you used them are the same for everyone ...only letting teams that are losing to bring on subs would be laugh out of town in football but somehow in Speedway it was ok ...I don't like double points but don't try to defend the old tac sub rule because it was just a bigger joke . I never do. I don't think there should be any Substitutions at all. Speedway is all about Results on the Track. Any, ANY Substitutions/Double Points is a mere contrivance of the Result. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.