Rye House 2018

[poppetman]

One big league with four man team plus reserve and run on the same lines as the old 4TT qualifiers?

Edited June 21, 2018 by poppetman

[hammer1969]

My views - One main league of 18/20 teams plus a junior/national league for up and coming riders. Meet each team over 2 legs home and away that will produce more local derbys that fans like to see and give us more chance of attending away fixtures. A Knock out Cup where matches are drawn from a hat up to the final that way Rye wont get Swindon every year. That should make the season from about Easter to September with home meetings probably every week. Let the promoters pick their home race night obviously with alternatives/bank holidays when needed as different areas have different needs. Reduce the gate fee to £10 which hopefully will bring more fans thereby compensating for any loss.  As for rider shortage I'll leave someone else to sort that out ☺

[ray c]

1 hour ago, White City Rebel said:

I would love to see a return to One Big League (I even like that as a title for it!). A full and varied league fixture list - maybe a knockout cup regionalised in it's early stages - maybe a four-legged 4 team tournament with your 3 nearest local rivals...as you say, Rob, just imagine...

That's sounds good to me .

[Fromafar]

One league with riders who want to ride in GB,with race night to suit clubs involved,the standard may drop but it is the way forward for to bring in new fans which the sport desperately needs.Present days fans are watching old journeymen riders going through the motions in Pl AndCl,I'm sure the NL is more interesting these days.

[stevebrum]

No one league please!! There just aren’t enough riders to fill all teams so it’s not going to happen. Thank god.

[waytogo28]

3 minutes ago, stevebrum said:

No one league please!! There just aren’t enough riders to fill all teams so it’s not going to happen. Thank god.

There will be several clubs not running very soon, so less riders needed. Sad but true.

[stevebrum]

2 minutes ago, waytogo28 said:

There will be several clubs not running very soon, so less riders needed. Sad but true.

Clubs have struggled for years. Nothing new. Most come back to the tapes yearly.

several clubs have made public their concerns in recent years. Peterborough, Workington, Berwick, Buxton just to name a few. Guess what, they are all still racing. I’m sure there are genuine concerns on crowd attendance. Every track wants more support through the turnstiles.

[waytogo28]

2 minutes ago, stevebrum said:

Clubs have struggled for years. Nothing new. Most come back to the tapes yearly.

several clubs have made public their concerns in recent years. Peterborough, Workington, Berwick, Buxton just to name a few. Guess what, they are all still racing. I’m sure there are genuine concerns on crowd attendance. Every track wants more support through the turnstiles.

I agree with you to some extent but, the list of defunct clubs is extensive.

[stevebrum]

9 minutes ago, waytogo28 said:

I agree with you to some extent but, the list of defunct clubs is extensive.

Completely agree however the reasons for a lot of the extensive clubs list is nothing to do with the way speedway is run today.

[Aces High]

Group A

Belle Vue, Wolverhampton, Sheffield, Workington, Scunthorpe

Group B

Glasgow, Edinburgh, Berwick, Newcastle, Redcar

Group C

Poole, Swindon, Somerset, Eastbourne**, Leicester

Group D

Rye House, Lakeside, Kings Lynn, Ipswich, Peterborough

Teams in Group A would ride 2x Home 2x Away against teams in their own group - 16 Meetings

They would ride one meeting home and away against teams in the other two groups - So group B and C one season, C/D the next - 20 Meetings

Playoffs:

4 Group Winners would meet in semi finals with the two winners proceeding to the grand final.

[Rayleigh]

59 minutes ago, Aces High said:

Group A

Belle Vue, Wolverhampton, Sheffield, Workington, Scunthorpe

Group B

Glasgow, Edinburgh, Berwick, Newcastle, Redcar

Group C

Poole, Swindon, Somerset, Eastbourne**, Leicester

Group D

Rye House, Lakeside, Kings Lynn, Ipswich, Peterborough

Teams in Group A would ride 2x Home 2x Away against teams in their own group - 16 Meetings

They would ride one meeting home and away against teams in the other two groups - So group B and C one season, C/D the next - 20 Meetings

Playoffs:

4 Group Winners would meet in semi finals with the two winners proceeding to the grand final.

Local derbies, less travel money for the riders, bigger crowds, clearly you don't understand how speedway works at all.

[stevebrum]

1 hour ago, RobMcCaffery said:

i.e., Wolverhampton's ok, to hell with everybody else. The biggest problem with the one league would be accommodating those tracks whose win at all costs mentality would be most likely to disrupt the spirit and principles, Poole and Wolverhampton being prime suspects. Perhaps they could apply to the Polish Ekstraliga and let us get on with building something workable without the 'stars' those tracks seem sadly dependent on?

The are plenty of riders if you actually think it through. The problem is the fans of certain tracks believing they still have the right to track riders like Lindgren and Woffinden. They tend to say "If that happens I'm off". Let me hold the door open. Do you REALLY think we can carry on as we are? 

Oh and as for your insensitive comments about tracks closing and re-opening. Well, mine shut in 1973 and it didn't come back. It still hurts. It's easy to be casual about other people's clubs folding when you've had a stable run since 1984. Yes some teams have come back, but it's not a casual matter and deeply insensitive. Again, "It's all great at Wolverhampton so why worry about the rest". Well when you find your fixture list comprises Poole and Belle Vue...........

I remember the sole occasion when Wolves ran in D2 in 1981. The loyal supporters fled and the track shut for three years. It's not really something to be proud of. 

I asked people to imagine a bright future. Many thankfully can see it and what it will take. Sadly some just want what they've got and hope it keeps going. 

Imagine a fixture list like I suggested.

Imagine one where you can only watch two midweek nights a week, home and AWAY, where your local derby is 100 miles away and you have month long gaps in the schedule and you never know who will turn up for the match, assuming they've nothing better to do. 

I know which one I prefer. 

What an odd interpretation of what I said and meant, which you have 100% wrong.

British speedway always comes first for me before club. IF Wolves had to move their race night I’d change my plans to suit. Maybe that wouldn’t suit everyone but again I’m only talking about myself. 

How is my comment on defunct tracks anyway “insensitive”?  Lots of tracks have closed over many years - Wimbledon, Wembley, New Cross,  Southampton,  cradley as examples, as a result of several factors that aren’t the governing bodies fault directly. How is a statement of fact “insensitive”? It’s not so please don’t dramatise my meaning of the meaning of the post.

if you have taken my post as meaning ‘my clubs ok so who cares about anyone else’ then you couldn’t be any further than the truth.

where are all these ‘plenty of riders’ that would fill all teams in one big league?? If you count up the riders who ride for 2 sometimes 3 teams you will see just how many riders we have in use, of course you can add in a few more extra riders who might return (not the big names of course, they want LESS meetings or shared role) but I doubt there would be enough to fill all teams. Plus the imbalance of some teams would make those who are assembled weakly in grave danger of falling crowds and potential ruin. So is one big league the answer?? Unlikely without a completely different race format.

im a big fan of British speedway, volunteer at Birmingham and take great pleasure in watching the great new talent that is emerging for a much brighter international future for GB.

im a top flight snob, not ashamed to admit it in the slightest. I’d prefer the strongest top flight we can, it’s not going to happen tho.

But to say I care only care about Wolves and s*d everyone else is a damn right insult. And yes I do take your reply as an insult to my intellect.

[Chairboy]

1 hour ago, stevebrum said:

What an odd interpretation of what I said and meant, which you have 100% wrong.

British speedway always comes first for me before club. IF Wolves had to move their race night I’d change my plans to suit. Maybe that wouldn’t suit everyone but again I’m only talking about myself. 

How is my comment on defunct tracks anyway “insensitive”?  Lots of tracks have closed over many years - Wimbledon, Wembley, New Cross,  Southampton,  cradley as examples, as a result of several factors that aren’t the governing bodies fault directly. How is a statement of fact “insensitive”? It’s not so please don’t dramatise my meaning of the meaning of the post.

if you have taken my post as meaning ‘my clubs ok so who cares about anyone else’ then you couldn’t be any further than the truth.

where are all these ‘plenty of riders’ that would fill all teams in one big league?? If you count up the riders who ride for 2 sometimes 3 teams you will see just how many riders we have in use, of course you can add in a few more extra riders who might return (not the big names of course, they want LESS meetings or shared role) but I doubt there would be enough to fill all teams. Plus the imbalance of some teams would make those who are assembled weakly in grave danger of falling crowds and potential ruin. So is one big league the answer?? Unlikely without a completely different race format.

im a big fan of British speedway, volunteer at Birmingham and take great pleasure in watching the great new talent that is emerging for a much brighter international future for GB.

im a top flight snob, not ashamed to admit it in the slightest. I’d prefer the strongest top flight we can, it’s not going to happen tho.

But to say I care only care about Wolves and s*d everyone else is a damn right insult. And yes I do take your reply as an insult to my intellect.

Fair play to you, Stevebrum. I have enjoyed reading Rob McCaffery's posts but I feel he may have rather over-reacted to yours.

[stevebrum]

3 minutes ago, White City Rebel said:

Fair play to you, Stevebrum. I have enjoyed reading Rob McCaffery's posts but I feel he may have rather over-reacted to yours.

Thanks WCR, likewise I usually find Rob’s post of interest and informative. I’m puzzled at the response in all honesty.

[Ben91]

On 21 June 2018 at 12:06 PM, stevebrum said:

No one league please!! There just aren’t enough riders to fill all teams so it’s not going to happen. Thank god.

An often wheeled out excuse when it comes to the one league debate or when there are calls to scrap doubling up and one that simply isn't true at all. 

One league would be somewhere between the already close standard of the top two leagues. 19 teams, 133 rider spots. At present in the top two divisions there are 104 different riders. A shortfall of 29. So how do you address that shortfall.

A quick scan of the greensheets show that between the top two tiers there are at least eight riders who for one reason or another have lost a team spot. That shortfall becomes 21. Cast our eyes back to 2017 and there are at least 30 names who featured in one of the top two tiers who have no spot at either level this time around. That shortfall has already been wiped out. Granted some have retired and some names may not wish to return next year. But we also haven't factored in the plentiful riders from overseas who would bite your arm off for a team spot over here, then there is also the National League where another quick check shows at least 15 riders averaging over six points a meeting without a team spot at a higher level.  

So in short, not enough riders? Not true. And there are facts to prove it. 

[Najjer]

15 minutes ago, Ben91 said:

An often wheeled out excuse when it comes to the one league debate or when there are calls to scrap doubling up and one that simply isn't true at all. 

One league would be somewhere between the already close standard of the top two leagues. 19 teams, 133 rider spots. At present in the top two divisions there are 104 different riders. A shortfall of 29. So how do you address that shortfall.

A quick scan of the greensheets show that between the top two tiers there are at least eight riders who for one reason or another have lost a team spot. That shortfall becomes 21. Cast our eyes back to 2017 and there are at least 30 names who featured in one of the top two tiers who have no spot at either level this time around. That shortfall has already been wiped out. Granted some have retired and some names may not wish to return next year. But we also haven't factored in the plentiful riders from overseas who would bite your arm off for a team spot over here, then there is also the National League where another quick check shows at least 15 riders averaging over six points a meeting without a team spot at a higher level.  

So in short, not enough riders? Not true. And there are facts to prove it. 

It's well and good having a quantity of rider, but the maths will not stack up when actually compiling the required or correct riders. For arguements sake, Somerset last season and even Poole to a certain extent this year couldn't find a number 1 to save their lives. Spread that across 11 more teams and all you end up having is a big league filled with riders, but decent teams and very poor teams. How is that good for anybody except putting teams out of business? One big league is a terrible idea unless you want to water the product down further and incorporating the National League. Watching Jason Doyle blitz riders like Matthew Wethers and Tobias Busch is not my idea of fun!

In actual fact the top division could just with Ipswich and Sheffield moving up, freeing up the Thursday issue too and missing riders completely. Even then there would be a struggle to create 10 teams of equal standard. 

[Ben91]

1 hour ago, Najjer said:

It's well and good having a quantity of rider, but the maths will not stack up when actually compiling the required or correct riders. For arguements sake, Somerset last season and even Poole to a certain extent this year couldn't find a number 1 to save their lives. Spread that across 11 more teams and all you end up having is a big league filled with riders, but decent teams and very poor teams. How is that good for anybody except putting teams out of business? One big league is a terrible idea unless you want to water the product down further and incorporating the National League. Watching Jason Doyle blitz riders like Matthew Wethers and Tobias Busch is not my idea of fun!

In actual fact the top division could just with Ipswich and Sheffield moving up, freeing up the Thursday issue too and missing riders completely. Even then there would be a struggle to create 10 teams of equal standard. 

As I said, if we were to have one league, it would be somewhere between the standard of the current Premiership and Championship. Realistically that means that riders such as Doyle would probably be the ones to miss out. And in reality, how many World Class riders do we really have here anymore anyway? Doyle, yes. NKI, KK? Maybe at a push but that is it. The way the current system works you have Doyle racing against the likes of Clegg, Sarjeant and Smith anyway in the top tier and in the second division you have riders such as Nicholls, Harris and Morris to name but a few. That's no different to the scenario which isn't your idea of fun. 

The sport here needs a radical shake up. I was anti one league for a long time. It always seems to have been a suggestion from some. But at the present time I think it is something worth looking at. Steps back to make steps forward in effect. It would stop doubling up, as there wouldn't be an option any longer. Doubling up was initially introduced to help riders transition up the leagues, a tool for progression. Now it is a free for all to make sure riders don't have to go out and do a 9-5 and race as a hobby on the side. We're the people who lose out. 

Whether we would retain a set race night, which was only half-assedly implemented anyway, or revert to clubs racing on the night that best suits them to draw a crowd I'm not sure but having 18 different opponents at home across the season would provide much needed variety too. 

 

[SteveLyric2]

Maybe to allow those clubs in the top league to run at weekends or on any preferred day due to their own local stadia issues there needs to be a change to 5 rider teams (as in Denmark) plus some sort of rider control on those riders who wish to ride abroad as well - especially in Poland.

Edited June 22, 2018 by Skidder1

[stevebrum]

5 hours ago, Ben91 said:

An often wheeled out excuse when it comes to the one league debate or when there are calls to scrap doubling up and one that simply isn't true at all. 

One league would be somewhere between the already close standard of the top two leagues. 19 teams, 133 rider spots. At present in the top two divisions there are 104 different riders. A shortfall of 29. So how do you address that shortfall.

A quick scan of the greensheets show that between the top two tiers there are at least eight riders who for one reason or another have lost a team spot. That shortfall becomes 21. Cast our eyes back to 2017 and there are at least 30 names who featured in one of the top two tiers who have no spot at either level this time around. That shortfall has already been wiped out. Granted some have retired and some names may not wish to return next year. But we also haven't factored in the plentiful riders from overseas who would bite your arm off for a team spot over here, then there is also the National League where another quick check shows at least 15 riders averaging over six points a meeting without a team spot at a higher level.  

So in short, not enough riders? Not true. And there are facts to prove it. 

The usual trotted out line that there are ‘plentiful riders from overseas’ who want a team spot here and there are plenty of riders in the NL who could make up team spots.

firstly where are these plentiful riders then? Matt Ford has been turned down by many over the past 2 seasons and had to turn to journeymen to make do. Of those plentiful riders from overseas who apparently want to flock here quite a few of them are barely championship level. Most become and stay reserves for several seasons thus keeping the promising Brits out of a team place, but let’s skip over that for now. There aren’t plentiful overseas riders wanting to come over anymore, getting less as the seasons go on.

The truth about the NL standard riders only a handful are really able to deal with a level above. If you watch NL racing (I do every week) you simply cannot say that just because a rider of NL has an average of 6 or over they can handle the next level.

ill use 2 examples to demonstrate. Mitchell Davey has been a star at this level for a while now but always struggles at levels above. (I use his name with caution due to the serious injuries he received and as someone who was on the track and had to witness his struggle for life it is most definitely not meant in any way as a negative and I couldn’t be any more delighted to see he is now on the mend). Another is Kyle Hughes. A big name in the NL but has struggled at any other level. Then you have heat leaders like Jon Armstrong and Tony Atkin who are both riding for fun and in their late 40’s. So already this exhaustive list of 6 pointers is already growing thin.

its fanciful at best to say there are enough riders of adequate quality to fill all team spots. And then when take out teams who have assets to call on to build a stronger team you are leaving some teams with having to pick up the dregs, great for the fans NOT!

The facts you quote as I’ve demonstrated are clearly flawed.

Edited June 22, 2018 by stevebrum
Added detail.

[Ben91]

12 hours ago, stevebrum said:

The usual trotted out line that there are ‘plentiful riders from overseas’ who want a team spot here and there are plenty of riders in the NL who could make up team spots.

firstly where are these plentiful riders then? Matt Ford has been turned down by many over the past 2 seasons and had to turn to journeymen to make do. Of those plentiful riders from overseas who apparently want to flock here quite a few of them are barely championship level. Most become and stay reserves for several seasons thus keeping the promising Brits out of a team place, but let’s skip over that for now. There aren’t plentiful overseas riders wanting to come over anymore, getting less as the seasons go on.

The truth about the NL standard riders only a handful are really able to deal with a level above. If you watch NL racing (I do every week) you simply cannot say that just because a rider of NL has an average of 6 or over they can handle the next level.

ill use 2 examples to demonstrate. Mitchell Davey has been a star at this level for a while now but always struggles at levels above. (I use his name with caution due to the serious injuries he received and as someone who was on the track and had to witness his struggle for life it is most definitely not meant in any way as a negative and I couldn’t be any more delighted to see he is now on the mend). Another is Kyle Hughes. A big name in the NL but has struggled at any other level. Then you have heat leaders like Jon Armstrong and Tony Atkin who are both riding for fun and in their late 40’s. So already this exhaustive list of 6 pointers is already growing thin.

its fanciful at best to say there are enough riders of adequate quality to fill all team spots. And then when take out teams who have assets to call on to build a stronger team you are leaving some teams with having to pick up the dregs, great for the fans NOT!

The facts you quote as I’ve demonstrated are clearly flawed.

One league would be somewhere between Premiership and Championship standard. So the point about Poole is somewhat irrelevant. They’ve been scouring for a world class rider to come over, not a rider who could do a middle order job, of which there are plenty from abroad who would come to race here. 

There are enough riders. I’ve proven it to you. Until the day there are only 132 riders left in the sport willing to take a team place in Britain, there are enough riders to fill 19 teams.