Sidney the robin Posted September 9, 2017 Report Share Posted September 9, 2017 (edited) I wouldnt quite define him as a superstar. One world title and 2 British crowns obviously mean he was very good. Still not a patch on the legend that is Tai Woffinden A different era and you need a different quality to win a one off world final harder in my opinion than to win the series .Havelock i was never a fan of i preferred Loram,Louis, .Dugard,Screen but he did reach the pinnacle which is a hell of a achievement as it stands at the moment i would still rate Craven,Lee,Collins higher than Woffinden but that could change in the future. Edited September 9, 2017 by Sidney the robin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted September 9, 2017 Report Share Posted September 9, 2017 Of our world champs Havelock must rate quite low I think.Maybe even at the bottom of the list.Remember seeing him while he was at Middleborough and he was an exciting prospect Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted September 9, 2017 Report Share Posted September 9, 2017 A different era and you need a different quality to win a one off world final harder in my opinion than to win the series .Havelock i was never a fan of i preferred Loram,Louis, .Dugard,Screen but he did reach the pinnacle which is a hell of a achievement as it stands at the moment i would still rate Craven,Lee,Collins higher than Woffinden but that could change in the future.I'd say it's harder to win a series Sid - unless you are one of the top two in the world that year, then I'd say it would be tougher to win a one off final. Was a great achievement no doubt. and was no fluke. He had an outstanding season. It no way imo he would have won a gp series. But being arguably the worst British world champ is still far more than most achieve. If woffy finishes top 2 this year Sid would u rate him best ever? With another world title? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted September 9, 2017 Report Share Posted September 9, 2017 I'd say it's harder to win a series Sid - unless you are one of the top two in the world that year, then I'd say it would be tougher to win a one off final. Was a great achievement no doubt. and was no fluke. He had an outstanding season. It no way imo he would have won a gp series. But being arguably the worst British world champ is still far more than most achieve. If woffy finishes top 2 this year Sid would u rate him best ever? With another world title? NO i personally dont think Woffinden at his best would beat Lee /Collins. Craven i did not see ride but his record speaks for itself.Also in yesteryear when Briggo/Mauger (ect) rode in British Final's it was mighty tough to qualify for a WF now i think Grand Prix results are percentage results. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 9, 2017 Report Share Posted September 9, 2017 I am sure that I read some years ago that several people involved with British speedway at international level were of the opinion that Gary Havelock had the qualifications and personality to be a future GB team manager? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted September 10, 2017 Report Share Posted September 10, 2017 Have to say Havvy would be my last choice of all British world champs to manage team GB. NO i personally dont think Woffinden at his best would beat Lee /Collins. Craven i did not see ride but his record speaks for itself.Also in yesteryear when Briggo/Mauger (ect) rode in British Final's it was mighty tough to qualify for a WF now i think Grand Prix results are percentage results.Is that the barometer to use though? Gollob at his best is probably better than Hancock or nicki P at their best. but surely ranks behind them in a list of all time greats.I agree GPS are percentage results, thereby a better indicator of who is the best rider in the world . You win by being best over a season, not by overcoming nerves or lifting your game for the big night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted September 10, 2017 Report Share Posted September 10, 2017 Interesting comment on the Teterow GP thread when asked who would you name as an unworthy world champion,someone said the obvious choice would be -Gary Havelock.You pays your money and make your choice,so to say. http://www.speedway-forum.co.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=84879&page=7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave the Mic Posted September 10, 2017 Report Share Posted September 10, 2017 Exactly - Havvy's dreads were considered "out there" in 1992 if I remember correctly! Only by some. I recall regarding an article by Ivan Mauger after the '92 World Final saying he was just what speedway needed. I recall him saying something like, "Look around an airport & you will see many more people that look like him than me". He was foolish with his drug offence, but accepted his punishment like a man, came back reformed, better, stronger & more committed & we know where it ended. Never shirked his responsibility as a racer for club or country & was an excellent servant for all his clubs & his country, many times as an inspirational captain. I would suggest he was a worthy world champion & carried his title with dignity & as a great ambassador at a time when the sport (like now) was struggling. I wouldnt quite define him as a superstar. One world title and 2 British crowns obviously mean he was very good. Still not a patch on the legend that is Tai Woffinden Very good? A world champion? Oh, OK. Do you have any idea how few people actually reach the pinnacle of their chosen sport/profession, compared to how many try it? Any sportsperson that becomes a world champion is part of an elite group, whether you rate them or not. It is an incredible achievement that only a few can match. Even Muller & Szczakiel deserve absolute respect as perhaps the two speedway world champions who rate lowest in many fans view, but the reality is they still had to deliver when it mattered. Would you rate Kelly & Shawn Moran, Todd Wiltshire, Tommy Knudsen, Zenon Plech & Leigh Adams, as just "very good". I would argue they were great riders, yet between them they didn't win a single world title. There are dozens more riders who were great racers, but couldn't quite reach the very top. In the early 90's Havelock was one of the best around, proven by his world title win. And I'm assuming your describing Woffinden as a legend is tongue in cheek. Long way to go before he can assume that status. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 10, 2017 Report Share Posted September 10, 2017 Only by some. I recall regarding an article by Ivan Mauger after the '92 World Final saying he was just what speedway needed. I recall him saying something like, "Look around an airport & you will see many more people that look like him than me". He was foolish with his drug offence, but accepted his punishment like a man, came back reformed, better, stronger & more committed & we know where it ended. Never shirked his responsibility as a racer for club or country & was an excellent servant for all his clubs & his country, many times as an inspirational captain. I would suggest he was a worthy world champion & carried his title with dignity & as a great ambassador at a time when the sport (like now) was struggling. I endorse your comments all the way Dave the Mic. The drug stupidity by Gary Havelock was TWENTY EIGHT YEARS AGO. He has moved own to redeem himself and done splendidly. Sadly for some BSF posters they are unable to forgive and accept a change in attitude by Havvy. In officialdom he paid and accepted the penalty for his foolishness all those years ago It's time that things in regard to a past foolishness are forgot and FORGIVEN. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave the Mic Posted September 10, 2017 Report Share Posted September 10, 2017 Of our world champs Havelock must rate quite low I think.Maybe even at the bottom of the list.Remember seeing him while he was at Middleborough and he was an exciting prospect Probably lowest of them all I would think Iris. Still won it though, which is more than can be said for most riders who throw their leg over a bike. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavan Posted September 10, 2017 Report Share Posted September 10, 2017 Only by some. I recall regarding an article by Ivan Mauger after the '92 World Final saying he was just what speedway needed. I recall him saying something like, "Look around an airport & you will see many more people that look like him than me". He was foolish with his drug offence, but accepted his punishment like a man, came back reformed, better, stronger & more committed & we know where it ended. Never shirked his responsibility as a racer for club or country & was an excellent servant for all his clubs & his country, many times as an inspirational captain. I would suggest he was a worthy world champion & carried his title with dignity & as a great ambassador at a time when the sport (like now) was struggling. Very good? A world champion? Oh, OK. Do you have any idea how few people actually reach the pinnacle of their chosen sport/profession, compared to how many try it? Any sportsperson that becomes a world champion is part of an elite group, whether you rate them or not. It is an incredible achievement that only a few can match. Even Muller & Szczakiel deserve absolute respect as perhaps the two speedway world champions who rate lowest in many fans view, but the reality is they still had to deliver when it mattered. Would you rate Kelly & Shawn Moran, Todd Wiltshire, Tommy Knudsen, Zenon Plech & Leigh Adams, as just "very good". I would argue they were great riders, yet between them they didn't win a single world title. There are dozens more riders who were great racers, but couldn't quite reach the very top. In the early 90's Havelock was one of the best around, proven by his world title win. And I'm assuming your describing Woffinden as a legend is tongue in cheek. Long way to go before he can assume that status. Missing my point. Nielsen, Rickardsson, Crump, Pedersen all can be classed as legends and exceptional riders in that modern era. Tai isnt to far behind. Havelock was a very good rider, would i class him as one of the greats as he won a world title? No. He took his chance when it was there same as Muller and Jerzy. Loram and Gollob also only won one world title but in the list of true greats i would have Gollob then Loram and then Havvy Very good rider, but not one of the greats in my opinion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave the Mic Posted September 10, 2017 Report Share Posted September 10, 2017 Missing my point. Nielsen, Rickardsson, Crump, Pedersen all can be classed as legends and exceptional riders in that modern era. Tai isnt to far behind. Havelock was a very good rider, would i class him as one of the greats as he won a world title? No. He took his chance when it was there same as Muller and Jerzy. Loram and Gollob also only won one world title but in the list of true greats i would have Gollob then Loram and then Havvy Very good rider, but not one of the greats in my opinion Not missing your point at all. The riders you mention are rightly classed as legends as much as for what they achieved as for their perception by the speedway public. They also had longevity of greatness, as Hancock has. I think Woffy is a great rider, no mistake & I like him as a racer. Not sure he would be quite in the same league as those you mention either, apart from Pedersen. Legend though? Not yet, in my opinion. I don't recall suggesting Havelock was an "all time great" either. Not once. However suggesting that he was only "very good" is doing him a huge disservice. I wouldn't rate him with any of those riders that have one more than one title, including Woffinden, but that isn't to say that at the peak of his powers he wasn't one of the best around, because he was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted September 10, 2017 Report Share Posted September 10, 2017 I endorse your comments all the way Dave the Mic. The drug stupidity by Gary Havelock was TWENTY EIGHT YEARS AGO. He has moved own to redeem himself and done splendidly. Sadly for some BSF posters they are unable to forgive and accept a change in attitude by Havvy. In officialdom he paid and accepted the penalty for his foolishness all those years ago It's time that things in regard to a past foolishness are forgot and FORGIVEN. Not at all.When weighing up someones career everything is taken into account surely?Not just the things you want taken into account But it does bring us back to the question asked a number of times now.Just what has Tai done that has offended you so much and you don't seem to want to put in the past? Probably lowest of them all I would think Iris. Still won it though, which is more than can be said for most riders who throw their leg over a bike. I'd agree with that Dave 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 13, 2017 Report Share Posted September 13, 2017 There is criticism in this thread at Gary Havelock for 'many years ago' having dreadlocks. In these modern times I have not seen similar adverse comments made about Swedish star Antonio Lindback who also has them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted September 14, 2017 Report Share Posted September 14, 2017 There is criticism in this thread at Gary Havelock for 'many years ago' having dreadlocks. In these modern times I have not seen similar adverse comments made about Swedish star Antonio Lindback who also has them.Really? I think one poster mentioned dreadlocks on a negative light, in direct response to someone comparing him positively to Tai. Most people couldn't care less about his dreadlocks.Now you seem to be still avoiding the question. In what way do you not consider Tai a good role model in comparison to other British world champs? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 14, 2017 Report Share Posted September 14, 2017 (edited) Gary Havelock's individual record: thanks to Wikipedia: 1992 World Champion 1986 British Under 21 Champion 1987 European Under-21 Champion 1991, 1992 British Champion 1992, 1995 South African Champion 1995 Premier League Riders Champion 1992 Overseas Champion Edited September 14, 2017 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted September 14, 2017 Report Share Posted September 14, 2017 Yes a good record. Not as good as Tais though. What was your issue with Tai again, I seem to have missed your response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted September 14, 2017 Report Share Posted September 14, 2017 Yes a good record. Not as good as Tais though. What was your issue with Tai again, I seem to have missed your response.Well, it's being South African Champion that has secured his place as an all-time great! You know, you have me checking this thread on a regular basis looking for gustix's response... I think he is just doing this for dramatic effect! Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 14, 2017 Report Share Posted September 14, 2017 (edited) A look back to 1992 when Gary Havelock proved himself as the then world No.1 rider: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjiAWY2Btgk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lu7ycOFSw_k Edited September 14, 2017 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted September 14, 2017 Report Share Posted September 14, 2017 (edited) Yes a good record. Not as good as Tais though. What was your issue with Tai again, I seem to have missed your response. Think it took gustix many prompts and over a year before he eventually got round to answering why he thought Mike Bast was one of the best ever riders.......in the end it was all a disappointment as he couldn't justify the claim.So just trolling as usual i think Edited September 14, 2017 by iris123 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.