GS550 Posted October 30, 2017 Report Share Posted October 30, 2017 you have been making this point for kicking on 30 years and no one actually cares.... No mate, you must be mistaking me for somebody else. I've not even been a member of this forum for 30 years. I guess I'm about 10 rounds up at the minute.... lets have a deciding heat/post and give away my runaway lead. Nah, that would be criminal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hacksaw Jim Duggan Posted October 30, 2017 Report Share Posted October 30, 2017 No mate, you must be mistaking me for somebody else. I've not even been a member of this forum for 30 years. I guess I'm about 10 rounds up at the minute.... lets have a deciding heat/post and give away my runaway lead. Nah, that would be criminal. Spending your time moaning about a race format that has been in place for about 30 years, oh aye you're a winner.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GS550 Posted October 30, 2017 Report Share Posted October 30, 2017 Spending your time moaning about a race format And you never joined in once did you. Its a speedway forum mate. You know wot they say about if you're finding it too hot in the kitchen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midland Red Posted October 30, 2017 Report Share Posted October 30, 2017 The fact it's been around for x number of years doesn't make it right, or fair The fact that the rules are known prior to the meeting doesn't make it fair How can anyone justify that a rider reeling off five straight wins, thus beating ALL other riders, is not the winner Defies any sort of logic 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gambo Posted October 30, 2017 Report Share Posted October 30, 2017 The fact it's been around for x number of years doesn't make it right, or fair The fact that the rules are known prior to the meeting doesn't make it fair How can anyone justify that a rider reeling off five straight wins, thus beating ALL other riders, is not the winner Defies any sort of logic But he only tops the qualifying rounds! Are you saying that Vettel should be named as winner of the F1 in Mexico as he topped the Qualifying? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midland Red Posted October 30, 2017 Report Share Posted October 30, 2017 But he only tops the qualifying rounds! Are you saying that Vettel should be named as winner of the F1 in Mexico as he topped the Qualifying? Irrelevant my Coventry friend!F1 qualifying is a time trial, not a direct competition between cars - as you well know 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gambo Posted October 30, 2017 Report Share Posted October 30, 2017 Irrelevant my Coventry friend! F1 qualifying is a time trial, not a direct competition between cars - as you well know And the first 20 heats in an Individual Speedway Meeting are known as "Qualifying Heats" 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midland Red Posted October 30, 2017 Report Share Posted October 30, 2017 Call them whatever you want - it ain't a fair and equitable way of deciding an individual meeting Replace the names Richie Worrall and Nick Morris with, say, Nigel Boocock and Ray Wilson Then say it's fair! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gambo Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 (edited) Call them whatever you want - it ain't a fair and equitable way of deciding an individual meeting Replace the names Richie Worrall and Nick Morris with, say, Nigel Boocock and Ray Wilson Then say it's fair! It's Fair! ....is my opinion. Edited October 31, 2017 by Gambo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GS550 Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 (edited) And the first 20 heats in an Individual Speedway Meeting are known as "Qualifying Heats" Under that logic Ivan Mauger may well have been robbed of many of his titles whereby he beat and dominated every other rider, for the sake of a one off last race spectacle. You might as well toss a coin. Ludicrous. Edited October 31, 2017 by justere2cgoodspeedway 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crescent girl Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 (edited) Oh well, at least there are another five months for this one to go round and round. And round and round. Speedway is a combination of sport, entertainment and business. As is all professional sport, even stuff like darts or snooker. To make the business pay, the promoter is required to provide entertainment. Drama. Intrigue. Twenty heats provide plenty of entertainment, with the points being added up as the evening expands to allow progression on the night and (in GPs) the season-long standings. The semis are a sudden-death drama, and the final allows the punters to file out (or switch off after the programme) after watching the show build to a climax. The best rider didn't win? Tough, come back next time and maybe he will. That's called suspense and maintaining interest in the product. Those who want a straight twenty heats, with a winner declared -- perhaps as early as Heat 17 -- will only see the public drifting, or switching, off after the victory is obvious. Which might be OK for amateur sport, but not the business of professional entertainment. So there. Edited October 31, 2017 by crescent girl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GS550 Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 (edited) Oh well, at least there are another five months for this one to go round and round. And round and round. Speedway is a combination of sport, entertainment and business. As is all professional sport, even stuff like darts or snooker. To make the business pay, the promoter is required to provide entertainment. Drama. Intrigue. Twenty heats provide plenty of entertainment, with the points being added up as the evening expands to allow progression on the night and (in GPs) the season-long standings. The semis are a sudden-death drama, and the final allows the punters to file out (or switch off after the programme) after watching the show build to a climax. The best rider didn't win? Tough, come back next time and maybe he will. That's called suspense and maintaining interest in the product. Those who want a straight twenty heats, with a winner declared -- perhaps as early as Heat 17 -- will only see the public drifting, or switching, off after the victory is obvious. Which might be OK for amateur sport, but not the business of professional entertainment. So there. Yes, yes , yes. We get it (already). That isn't the point made. The point made is that the infatuation with having a last race spectacle undermines the process of choosing the champion and/or best rider. Hence, if the same format had been used when Ivan Mauger was around then he may have been robbed of many of his titles. You mention public interest waning if there are commanding leads. Football doesn't have hang ups with that scenario and as an entertainment based sport it absolutely thrives. If football followed speedway's hang up with built up leads etc then after 80 minutes the lead would be binned and they would play 10 minutes from scratch again. And which of course is ludicrous, such a way of doing things lacks any credibility and others that follow other sports think it is crazy and are not attracted to what they see as a very badly run sport. I personally don't buy the excitement build up you are speaking of. As others have observed that I try to sell the sport to, they don't see the point of attending league matches if it's going to be thrown down the pan for the sake of a one off play off spectacle so no point in turning up until the playoff, and the same with such individual finals then no point in turning up until the last race. Or maybe just no point in turning up at all for any of it. In any case, when it was down to 20 heats the sport thrived so, again, I don't buy the way that we have to have a one off last race. In my opinion it undermines the credibility of the whole thing and one reason I won't attend. Edited October 31, 2017 by justere2cgoodspeedway 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromafar Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 When it was 20 heats a few of riders were " bought off"after 4 rides just to stay out the way.Just like World champ qualifiers.IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulco Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 Yes, yes , yes. We get it (already). That isn't the point made. The point made is that the infatuation with having a last race spectacle undermines the process of choosing the champion and/or best rider. Hence, if the same format had been used when Ivan Mauger was around then he may have been robbed of many of his titles. You mention public interest waning if there are commanding leads. Football doesn't have hang ups with that scenario and as an entertainment based sport it absolutely thrives. If football followed speedway's hang up with built up leads etc then after 80 minutes the lead would be binned and they would play 10 minutes from scratch again. And which of course is ludicrous, such a way of doing things lacks any credibility and others that follow other sports think it is crazy and are not attracted to what they see as a very badly run sport. I personally don't buy the excitement build up you are speaking of. As others have observed that I try to sell the sport to, they don't see the point of attending league matches if it's going to be thrown down the pan for the sake of a one off play off spectacle so no point in turning up until the playoff, and the same with such individual finals then no point in turning up until the last race. Or maybe just no point in turning up at all for any of it. In any case, when it was down to 20 heats the sport thrived so, again, I don't buy the way that we have to have a one off last race. In my opinion it undermines the credibility of the whole thing and one reason I won't attend. It's why the semis and final were brought in . Individual meetings were boring . Riders who had a poor first couple of rides , gave up and the whole thing was like watching paint dry at times . I get your argument regarding Richie , and being a Glasgow fan myself I would have loved him to win it . But the criteria of the meeting has been this way for years now and Nick Morris peaked at the right time and well done to him . 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GS550 Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 It's why the semis and final were brought in . Individual meetings were boring . Riders who had a poor first couple of rides , gave up and the whole thing was like watching paint dry at times . I get your argument regarding Richie , and being a Glasgow fan myself I would have loved him to win it . But the criteria of the meeting has been this way for years now and Nick Morris peaked at the right time and well done to him . I accord with the congrats to Nick Morris. It isn't his fault that the rules are skewed the way they are. Personally I prefer to evaluate who is the best rider over 20 heats in a round robin format which really does decide which rider is the best and worthy of the title. In football you may as well scrap the commanding lead after 80 minutes and just play the remaining 10 minutes, to me its bonkers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robinsgirl Posted November 1, 2017 Report Share Posted November 1, 2017 wouldn't the 'best rider' make it 6 in a row, not 5, if he/she was good enough? He/she could have one dud/unlucky/poor ref call EF ride in the 20 heats anyway. Maybe the 'best rider' in this case was strategic and didn't burn themselves out in the first five... Ivan probably would have done what was required and win in any format! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GS550 Posted November 1, 2017 Report Share Posted November 1, 2017 (edited) wouldn't the 'best rider' make it 6 in a row, not 5, if he/she was good enough? He/she could have one dud/unlucky/poor ref call EF ride in the 20 heats anyway. Maybe the 'best rider' in this case was strategic and didn't burn themselves out in the first five... Ivan probably would have done what was required and win in any format! You are missing the point. The point is that it is wrong to bin the runaway lead and put all back level again and down to one race, so e.g. if a puncture or an EF in the additional/last race then it should only affect the overall score by a couple of points or so and therefore not disproportionately affect the outcome, and so even Ivan would not be robbed. It is the equivalent of a built up lead in a football match being binned after 80 minutes and so only scoring during the last 10 minutes counts - ludicrous. And that's why many friends and workmates of mine that follow other sports including football see speedway as a Mickey Mouse sport that is very badly run and they laugh at it. Edited November 1, 2017 by justere2cgoodspeedway 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robinsgirl Posted November 1, 2017 Report Share Posted November 1, 2017 You are missing the point. The point is that it is wrong to bin the runaway lead and put all back level again and down to one race, so e.g. if a puncture or an EF in the additional/last race then it should only affect the overall score by a couple of points or so and therefore not disproportionately affect the outcome, and so even Ivan would not be robbed. It is the equivalent of a built up lead in a football match being binned after 80 minutes and so only scoring during the last 10 minutes counts - ludicrous. And that's why many friends and workmates of mine that follow other sports including football see speedway as a Mickey Mouse sport that is very badly run and they laugh at it. Not missing the point, just don't agree. If Ivan dropped 2 points (through something unfortunate) and another rider finishes on 14. even having been beaten by Ivan previously, that rider would win and not Ivan. Makes all this disproportionately stuff irrelevant. Both formats have the form rider come out on top on many occasions, both have times when they don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GS550 Posted November 2, 2017 Report Share Posted November 2, 2017 Not missing the point, just don't agree. If Ivan dropped 2 points (through something unfortunate) and another rider finishes on 14. even having been beaten by Ivan previously, that rider would win and not Ivan. Makes all this disproportionately stuff irrelevant. Both formats have the form rider come out on top on many occasions, both have times when they don't. Nothing to do with either agreeing or disagreeing - not at all. You are missing the point. I did think of the 5 rides point so why not 6 myself that you made about Ivan i.e. before you made it I had (already) thought of that myself. However, the difference is that whereby Ivan had reeled off 5 straight wins and comprehensively beaten every other rider and was head and shoulders above the rest and had, e.g. a 4 point lead over the next best rider, an extra 6th ride whereby he had a puncture or an EF would make no difference if the points are cumulative i.e. his nearest challenger could only close the gap by 3 points. Whereas if the slate is wiped clean and all down to one additional/last race then all of that dominance is binned. That's the difference. Friends and workmates that follow football see it as a Mickey Mouse way of doing things as they see it as being like a commanding lead in football being wiped out after 80 minutes and then just playing the last 10 minutes as the only thing that counts and they see speedway as a Mickey Mouse sport that is very badly run and they laugh at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crescent girl Posted November 2, 2017 Report Share Posted November 2, 2017 While the main point of the current, preferable system is to bring a night's racing to a climax, which is always a desire in any form of entertainment, think on this........ The suggestion that Ivan Mauger might have lost one of his six World Titles (only two of which came from maxima) has to be set against the alternative thought that, if the old 20-heat World Final had been completed by the deciding 'semis and final' Ivan might well have also won in 1966, 1967, 1971, 1974, 1975, 1976 and 1978! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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