Time To Scrap Doubling Up?

[Trees]

I don't think 'banning' Aussies is wanted or will happen, more likely a requirement to commit for a certain length of time. If you consider overseas riders who have been dropped due to the 'averages' game and those NL riders who have some experience at a higher level (like Rye bringing in Morley and Newcastle with Hopwood), then you would probably have enough riders to remove the need for doubling up.

Have you not read the vitriol from a few fans re the Aussies, these people would have them stay in Aus forever!

[brianbuck]

This doubling-up farce will be the final ruination of speedway and it is clear from reading the posts in this thread that a big majority of supporters intensely dislike it and want rid of it. (This is not going to be easy to do now that the system has careered out of control.)

 

By introducing this nonsense, the promoters themselves have created the rider shortage which they are now complaining about. The number of available Premiership team places has been reduced by 30+ with this number of Championship riders also riding for teams in the top league. The knock-on effect is the same in the Championship - 30+ riders who by rights should be exclusively in the top division now also occupy places in the second tier as well.

 

In the National League, there is the added knock-on effect of numerous riders being prevented from moving up a division even though they have developed enough to to do so. By these riders staying in the National League the situation has been created whereby numerous teams are so top-heavy that the quality of the racing is suffering - we see every week, a string of races in which the two leading riders are half a lap ahead of the remaining two. Speedway is nothing if it has no genuine quality of racing - and that is something which is being lost in the National League because the teams are so badly balanced.

 

Doubling-up has done nothing for British Speedway (except for making it a laughing stock). I have been an avid supporter of the sport for 64 years. I love it, and would never ever desert it - but I can fully understand why so many other long standing supporters are turning their backs on it - it's because of the senseless rules it has introduced and the appallingly poor way the sport is controlled.

 

Getting rid of doubling-up is now going to be a difficult process, but a start can be made by taking control of it and capping the number of riders who are allowed to take advantage of it, and then gradually reducing the reliance on it until in time, it can be scrapped altogether.

 

Sadly, there seems little prospect of this happening - instead, it has been allowed to spiral out of control and the promoters seem powerless to do anything about it.

Edited August 15, 2017 by BBuck

[iris123]

I haven't read all of the thread so apologies if someone else has suggested this but how about amalgamate the top two leagues but not with the race format we have today?

 

Something like ... 5 riders from the current teams in the premiership and championship plus 3 from the NL. The NL riders don't ride against the main body of riders but just have, say, 4 races spread throughout the meeting. These races all count towards the result. They get 2 rides each ( 1+2, 2+3, 1+3) and then the top 2 get a 3rd ride. This would give them track time, a bigger audience (which could possibly help with sponsorship), time with more experienced riders in the pits and they will be able to ride many more tracks and surfaces. Also, as they will be riding against each other there should be less races where the less abled rider is half a lap down and getting demoralised. They should also have a better chance of scoring points so they should boost their income.

The current reserve role could be taken by the 2nd strings, with a maximum of three extra rides taken between the two riders. With only five main team riders there should be enough within the current leagues to go around.

 

No doubt there will be some reasons why this idea, or similar ones, may not work. I've not thought long and hard about this, it's just an idea. Something does need to be done and maybe something like this is the answer?

 

Over to the more knowledgeable ones in the forum.

Must say i did suggest 'reserve' races in the Bundesliga and whether due to my suggestion or not i can't be sure,but it was implemented and a couple of years later scrapped.In reality,when i saw them it did turn out to be fairly strung out heats and more often than not the same rider won all 4 heats,the same rider came second in all 4 or at least 3,and so on....

This doubling-up farce will be the final ruination of speedway and it is clear from reading the posts in this thread that a big majority of supporters intensely dislike it and want rid of it. (This is not going to be easy to do now that the system has careered out of control.)

 

 

Again,not sure you can come to such a conclusion!!! How many on here are against it?6,7 or 8 people and some of them don't even go.Some didn't even go before this came to the crunch,so not really a good survey of opinions....

 

I do agree that all this,probably not the doubling up,but more riders riding in 4 or 5 different leagues,taking the places from others,has caused this problem with a majr rider shortage.We also lack enough training facilities,but as i have stated often enough,Denmark have great facilities that are open quite a lot,but still face a big problem in the future

[frigbo]

 

But how many fans have stopped attending because the likes of Nick Morris are racing for two clubs. You won't find

 

But how many fans have stopped attending because the likes of Nick Morris are racing for two clubs. You won't find them, cos they ain't attending!

Me for one - although it is the amount of meetings riders miss and facilities to cover that is the real issue for me Edited August 15, 2017 by frigbo

[foamfence]

Have you not read the vitriol from a few fans re the Aussies, these people would have them stay in Aus forever!

Mt liquid cosh has a vitriol firewall.

[iris123]

Me for one - although it is the amount of meetings riders miss and facilities to cover that is the real issue for me

Is there a big difference this season at Swindon with say 10 or 20 years ago?In all honesty it looks like they have a fairly regular team,with maybe Doyle missing meetings through injury.But that can happen any season

 

https://www.speedwaygb.co/swindon17

[frigbo]

Is there a big difference this season at Swindon with say 10 or 20 years ago?In all honesty it looks like they have a fairly regular team,with maybe Doyle missing meetings through injury.But that can happen any season

 

https://www.speedwaygb.co/swindon17

To be fair, the Swindon team line-up has been pretty consistent. My issue is more around the numerous select sides that have rolled up pretending to be the away team. Having said that, I do have a fundamental dislike of the concept of any rider having more than one fuĺl-time UK team place - it simply has no place in any sport in my view.

[IainB]

Currently clubs have the option to shop at Tesco, Lidl, Asda, Aldi and Marks and Spencer's - they can look at a multitude of options - if the rule was removed clubs like Belle Vue AND Workington would be fighting to sign Craig Cook they would then have to outbid each other to secure him - that doesn't help the clubs, that helps the rider.

To continue your analogy, it seems to me that clubs are currently at the food bank

[THE DEAN MACHINE]

The answer is to find out how many riders want to race in Britain next year , if there is enough then doubling up gets scraped , if there isn't enough then we find another solution . Maybe only Brits can double up ?? After all wasn't that what doubling up was originally for

[foamfence]

The answer is to find out how many riders want to race in Britain next year , if there is enough then doubling up gets scraped , if there isn't enough then we find another solution . Maybe only Brits can double up ?? After all wasn't that what doubling up was originally for

It was and that's how it should be again if we are forced to have it. With rumours about Poland possibly moving the goalposts again and Sweden considering a league restructure, we might find a number of riders are as yet undecided about next season.

[B.V 72]

Better fixture planning has to happen because the way British speedway is at this time there is no way that they can stop doubleing up/down.

Looking at the riders involved if they stop it next year.Both leagues need the same riders to fill their team places.

Looking at it from just one point of view and the riders all choose to stay in the top league.That would mean that 25 out of 30 riders at present riding as Champ league heat leaders would be missing next season plus possibly another 10 or so presently riding as Prem league reserves.

I know people will say some will stay in the Prem league but imo the following riders will not.

Cook

S Worrall

R Worrall

R Lambert

King

Holder

Harris

Lawson

Grajzonek

Morris

Masters

Schlein

Plus if push comes to shove a few more will choose the Prem league.

It would cause more money problems for all the clubs as a lot of riders will ride for the clubs that pay the most which I would think in most cases will be Prem league clubs.

Can the Championship survive without all these top riders all being replaced by young Nat league riders.How many of you will stop going if this is the strength of the league ?.

 

I hate riders missing from meetings as much as the next fan through doubleing up but the way British speedway is at the moment with not only the top overseas riders not wanting to ride over here what choice have our Promoters got.

Edited August 16, 2017 by B.V 72

[foamfence]

Better fixture planning has to happen because the way British speedway is at this time there is no way that they can stop doubleing up/down.

Looking at the riders involved if they stop it next year.Both leagues need the same riders to fill their team places.

Looking at it from just one point of view and the riders all choose to stay in the top league.That would mean that 25 out of 30 riders at present riding as Champ league heat leaders would be missing next season plus possibly another 10 or so presently riding as Prem league reserves.

I know people will say some will stay in the Prem league but imo the following riders will not.

Cook

S Worrall

R Worrall

R Lambert

King

Holder

Harris

Lawson

Grajzonek

Morris

Masters

Schlein

Plus if push comes to shove a few more will choose the Prem league.

It would cause more money problems for all the clubs as a lot of riders will ride for the clubs that pay the most which I would think in most cases will be Prem league clubs.

Can the Championship survive without all these top riders all being replaced by young Nat league riders.How many of you will stop going if this is the strength of the league ?.

 

I hate riders missing from meetings as much as the next fan through doubleing up but the way British speedway is at the moment with not only the top overseas riders not wanting to ride over here what choice have our Promoters got.

We all have our own opinions, personally I'd prefer to see an end to doubling up and more places for NL riders and yes I do realise that some of them would struggle.

[Hacksaw Jim Duggan]

Better fixture planning has to happen because the way British speedway is at this time there is no way that they can stop doubleing up/down.

Looking at the riders involved if they stop it next year.Both leagues need the same riders to fill their team places.

Looking at it from just one point of view and the riders all choose to stay in the top league.That would mean that 25 out of 30 riders at present riding as Champ league heat leaders would be missing next season plus possibly another 10 or so presently riding as Prem league reserves.

I know people will say some will stay in the Prem league but imo the following riders will not.

Cook

S Worrall

R Worrall

R Lambert

King

Holder

Harris

Lawson

Grajzonek

Morris

Masters

Schlein

Plus if push comes to shove a few more will choose the Prem league.

It would cause more money problems for all the clubs as a lot of riders will ride for the clubs that pay the most which I would think in most cases will be Prem league clubs.

Can the Championship survive without all these top riders all being replaced by young Nat league riders.How many of you will stop going if this is the strength of the league ?.

 

I hate riders missing from meetings as much as the next fan through doubleing up but the way British speedway is at the moment with not only the top overseas riders not wanting to ride over here what choice have our Promoters got.

 

 

This.

 

The product is already at breaking point when it comes to stripping it back and going back to basics as it is.

 

The standard on show in the Premiership and Championship just now is as low as it can get at current admission prices IMO - any further reduction in quality will have to be met with a widespread reduction in cost which wouldn’t be sustainable or affordable for clubs if more fans were to walk away from the sport, which is the most likely outcome .

 

I don’t think you would be able to fool those who still attend that it is ok to watch a lot of riders currently plying their trade in the NL. The ideology that fans would just be ok with going from riders like Masters, Cook and Lambert to quite possibly David Mason, Lee Dicken and Benji Compton seems incredibly farfetched to me - even if fans were convinced the replacements were entirely committed to the club they were competing for.

 

I would also highly doubt the numbers would be made up from the NL anyway, the NL as it stands is quite a regional league where a short term season is financially viable for a lot of the participants – a step up in league for the afore mentioned Dicken, Mason, Compton and riders like Tony Atkin just doesn’t feel plausible to me or the kind of thing some in the NL would entertain – there is a world of difference between the NL schedule and the Championship schedule.

 

All that being said, these are the kind of things that should actively be asked – asked at meetings.

 

Would a Glasgow fan for example rather see the side they currently have and pay the prices they do, or see a side where Lawson, Worrall and Bewley were replaced by Dicken, Rudick and Jake Knight yet prices a few £’s less – I would hazard a guess the higher % would favour the Lawson and co side.

 

It is going to get to a standard that just isn’t worth the fans who do attends effort to attend each week anymore – at this time it is best to pander to their needs rather than those who might return, maybe, one day….

Edited August 16, 2017 by Hacksaw Jim Duggan

[Fromafar]

This.

 

The product is already at breaking point when it comes to stripping it back and going back to basics as it is.

 

The standard on show in the Premiership and Championship just now is as low as it can get at current admission prices IMO - any further reduction in quality will have to be met with a widespread reduction in cost which wouldn’t be sustainable or affordable for clubs if more fans were to walk away from the sport, which is the most likely outcome .

 

I don’t think you would be able to fool those who still attend that it is ok to watch a lot of riders currently plying their trade in the NL. The ideology that fans would just be ok with going from riders like Masters, Cook and Lambert to quite possibly David Mason, Lee Dicken and Benji Compton seems incredibly farfetched to me - even if fans were convinced the replacements were entirely committed to the club they were competing for.

 

I would also highly doubt the numbers would be made up from the NL anyway, the NL as it stands is quite a regional league where a short term season is financially viable for a lot of the participants – a step up in league for the afore mentioned Dicken, Mason, Compton and riders like Tony Atkin just doesn’t feel plausible to me or the kind of thing some in the NL would entertain – there is a world of difference between the NL schedule and the Championship schedule.

 

All that being said, these are the kind of things that should actively be asked – asked at meetings.

 

Would a Glasgow fan for example rather see the side they currently have and pay the prices they do, or see a side where Lawson, Worrall and Bewley were replaced by Dicken, Rudick and Jake Knight yet prices a few £’s less – I would hazard a guess the higher % would favour the Lawson and co side.

 

It is going to get to a standard that just isn’t worth the fans who do attends effort to attend each week anymore – at this time it is best to pander to their needs rather than those who might return, maybe, one day….

The question that should be asked is ,would you like to see the same 7 riders in your Team each week ,or does it really matter who rides for which Team each week.would it affect you attending every week.

[The White Knight]

The question that should be asked is ,would you like to see the same 7 riders in your Team each week ,or does it really matter who rides for which Team each week.would it affect you attending every week.

Why would I want to go and watch a bunch of Riders who don't give a toss if they win for my Team or not?

 

I would like to see a Team of Riders who are Racing for the Club, and Supporters they represent on a regular basis. In other words - MY TEAM.

[Fromafar]

Why would I want to go and watch a bunch of Riders who don't give a toss if they win for my Team or not?

 

I would like to see a Team of Riders who are Racing for the Club, and Supporters they represent on a regular basis. In other words - MY TEAM.

I agree,I'm just pointing out what I would ask,as some fans don't mind according to this forum and that is their opinion which they are entitled too.

[Sir Sidney]

Why would I want to go and watch a bunch of Riders who don't give a toss if they win for my Team or not?

 

I would like to see a Team of Riders who are Racing for the Club, and Supporters they represent on a regular basis. In other words - MY TEAM.

As someone who followed Wimbledon from the times the team included world champions and international stars, to the Conference League days I can only say that I was prepared to pay to watch my team regardless of the league they were in. My team was My team - and I suspect that throughout that time frame were much more stable and likely to have a greater deal of continuity,Not just from week to week but also from year to year. I don't believe I would have enjoyed the current doubling up rules

[The White Knight]

I agree,I'm just pointing out what I would ask,as some fans don't mind according to this forum and that is their opinion which they are entitled too.

I quite agree ff. It's just not my opinion.

[Danny Connor]

Weaken the middle tier to 50% top league then more conference riders will have to step up to fill those gaps. Make the conference league an armature league. Allow double ups but with the understanding the higher league will always have priority. That will then make it less attractive to start he season with a high profile rider for the middle tier. And he more professional league will never be compromised .

 

The problem is the middle tier is too strong. And the third tier has teams who should really be in a higher league.

 

It used to be the top middle tier ridersmay make a good top league reserve. The 2leagues should have weakened and strengthened as a unit. Instead we now have too many middle tier riders at a top league standard.

[Hacksaw Jim Duggan]

Why would I want to go and watch a bunch of Riders who don't give a toss if they win for my Team or not?

 

I would like to see a Team of Riders who are Racing for the Club, and Supporters they represent on a regular basis. In other words - MY TEAM.

 

 

If you are of the, slightly paranoid mind-set, that riders don’t give a toss under the current set of rules then it is difficult to think you wouldn’t just apply that same logic to any set of rules as you are questioning the riders mentality rather than a rule. The riders mentality you are questioning isn’t a perception the sporting authorities can change.

 

What I mean by that is if you feel riders are cheating you now or don’t give a toss, what is to stop you from thinking they would be cheating you in some way under a different set of rules?

 

As it stands (and would stand regardless of the rules) riders are vicariously wishing a team to win and do well the minute they sign a contract. The more points they score for the side the more money they make, that is the thought process that will always be at the forefront of most riders minds.

 

If you wish to look for such ways to tarnish rules, riders and the sport then you will find a way to do so – and good for you for doing so but that isn’t the fault of the sports authorities and nor is it that constructive or relevant.

 

There are many fans who still seem to manage on without the need to attach such shades of black to the sport (even many who are against this particular rule) – question the rules, regulation, and suggest they should change yes that’s a fair minded conversation to have that is healthy even, but to read a post like yours, it just feels a bit like you would find a way to put a negative slant of a situation regardless, difficult to take such a post seriously.

Edited August 17, 2017 by Hacksaw Jim Duggan