Time To Scrap Doubling Up?

[Trees]

Age has nothing to do with it.

 

I know when I saw a Team of Riders - and I know when I see a group of Riders.

 

I watched Team Speedway years ago - nowadays you watch whoever the Promoter can get in and put out in front of you. The 'Team' (in it's true sense) ethic has gone from the Sport, and the Public, the Customers, are recognizing this and are not buying it.

 

No it won't - how can you build up Team Spirit and Camaraderie when you have different Riders in your so-called Team every week? The answer is you can't.

Yes there are a few where you don't have your team racing but it's usually because of a few different things, take our meeting at Leicester, Buster had sacked two of our original team, signed new boys who weren't available on that date, had injuries to cover too, so how can he get out of that one? Now if the league wasn't so strictly governed by the TV dates this could've been rearranged but no, it doesn't work like that.

 

And age, health and enthusiasm for life does have a bearing.... young people generally don't moan as much, it's all new to them, they haven't summered and wintered the sport, they aren't so synical, they go with mates, have fun... I know, I'm no youngster 😂

Edited August 14, 2017 by Trees

[KIRKYLANE]

I believe the majority of fans would like to see the end of the double points.

 

Most non Speedway fans when told of the rule just say how stupid is that !!!

[Gemini]

 

 

..................Trees.................And age, health and enthusiasm for life does have a bearing.... young people generally don't moan as much, it's all new to them, they haven't summered and wintered the sport, they aren't so synical, they go with mates, have fun... I know, I'm no youngster

 

What's SCB's reason then as he does enough moaning and he's a Spring Chicken.

Not sure I agree with you or not about it being an age thing as it's only Speedway that makes me feel fed up. On the whole I am completely happy and enjoy life but things have definitely changed for the worse in our sport. Surely we all know that. I don't know what the answer is to all this doubling up, doubling down and missing riders but the fact is it gets worse each season and more and more fans decide they've had enough and give up. I never thought I would be indifferent about Coventry ever returning but now I think they are best out of it and that's sad after I have supported them for 30 years.

[waiheke1]

When I first started watching speedway in the early 80s, there was doubling up, but it actually worked. If memory serves, often the number one rider from the old National League side (in our case Dave Perks) would double up in reserve for a British League side (Cradley and I think then Coventry in Perks case). The national league side would retain priority of course.

 

Of course there was a clear different in class between both leagues back then, and far less average overseas riders clogging up the British leagues. But the rider always felt like 'ours', Long Eaton's. It never felt like he was a travelling journeyman rider who was riding for a different club every night.

I guess the difference was that the "number 8" would only be called up a handful of times a season, not riding full time on both leagues.

I'd also suggest that the proportion of overseas riders, at least in the top flight, has not significantly changed since the 80s. In fact I'd say there are far fewer sub standard foreigners - I recall the likes of j verner ondrasik noer hdriniak righetto and Eastbourne alone one season (83?) used at least half a dozen rubbish foreign riders

[Trees]

I believe the majority of fans would like to see the end of the double points.

 

Most non Speedway fans when told of the rule just say how stupid is that !!!

Yes I'd like that to go with the only tactical move being gate changes when 6 down.

[waytogo28]

Yes there are a few where you don't have your team racing but it's usually because of a few different things, take our meeting at Leicester, Buster had sacked two of our original team, signed new boys who weren't available on that date, had injuries to cover too, so how can he get out of that one? Now if the league wasn't so strictly governed by the TV dates this could've been rearranged but no, it doesn't work like that.

 

And age, health and enthusiasm for life does have a bearing.... young people generally don't moan as much, it's all new to them, they haven't summered and wintered the sport, they aren't so synical, they go with mates, have fun... I know, I'm no youngster

That is so , I am in the 60 years of watching phase and YES there is some truth in the above but we have not yet lost all of our critical faculties about life and speedway. Also speedway has failed for a variety of reasons to attract hordes of younger fans who might have pushed us seniors to one side with their buzzing enthusiasm - and who rarely moan. The criticisms many of us have are genuine and are factors in why the sport is not attractive to young people. It's still run mostly in an old fashioned manner which even wrinkles like me can see. So little has changed in the 50 years except the bike technology. And it has become so more more of a Gate and Go show, which it always was but to a lesser degree. Except at the highest level as in the GP!

[Hacksaw Jim Duggan]

My assumption is such a change will only further accelerate the end of the sport as it would sky rocket costs even further. It puts the power in the riders hands as there would be such high demand for average talent in order to to fill a side let alone compete.

 

In the current rider climate where rider numbers are multiplied by the double up rule Peterborough still had to track a side with 3 riders who double up, 3 guests and rider replacement on Sunday at Newcastle. I don’t see how that situation will change with the removal of the double up rule. if anything it would only further increase/sustain the number of guests and rider replacements as riders will still pick up injuries during the course of the season and replacements will be thin on the ground.

 

It will also afford sides who struggle very little wriggle room or chance to improve as there won't be the riders their to sign replacements, strengthen or alter a side - seems incredibly unfair - that is if all sides can even track full teams in the first place, and if they can at what cost due to the demands riders would make - and some clubs would still pay the demands riders would ask - and then the travel costs involved to simply fill a 1-6 or 7 with a body for the sake of it - these things don't seems to be considered when the idea of the rule removal is floated.

 

There are two things at play here - one, is yes double up/down, guests etc are not ideal two - there isn't the rider numbers there to remove it. This isn't like other sports, there isn't endless revenues of talent and participants who can afford clubs the chance to have a team of "their own" each and every meeting.

Edited August 15, 2017 by Hacksaw Jim Duggan

[Trees]

That is so , I am in the 60 years of watching phase and YES there is some truth in the above but we have not yet lost all of our critical faculties about life and speedway. Also speedway has failed for a variety of reasons to attract hordes of younger fans who might have pushed us seniors to one side with their buzzing enthusiasm - and who rarely moan. The criticisms many of us have are genuine and are factors in why the sport is not attractive to young people. It's still run mostly in an old fashioned manner which even wrinkles like me can see. So little has changed in the 50 years except the bike technology. And it has become so more more of a Gate and Go show, which it always was but to a lesser degree. Except at the highest level as in the GP!

I have 3 20+ children, 2 boys and a girl, only my daughter attends speedway and only for the Social side of it. One son is interested in the racing and even had a little go himself but is not fan material, the other son has not one iota of interest in speedway.

 

It's so hard to work out what will attract people, young people, has to be cheap, has to be colourful, interactive, exciting (ie lots of passing), good music. Loads of effort needs to go in, some promoters are putting lots of effort in, some not so. Have said for years that the promoters should poll ideas at the conference, must admit to seeing some promoting ideas being used by many which is great. Thing is are their ideas attracting more fans, I so hope so!

 

I really don't think stuff like doubling up concerns many young, future fans, it's the entertainment they get at their track on the night what matters imo, the interaction of their team on the night etc.

 

Hope none of them come on here and read any of the moaning, it'll put them off going to speedway for life, moaning old gits, I hear them say haha

Edited August 15, 2017 by Trees

[moxey63]

Is speedway going to eventually die when the "moaning old gets" finally kick the bucket then?

 

Seems youngsters only want to treat it like we hear from American riders how race-goers treat it over in the States - the speedway being unimportant, more about socialising.

[paulboy]

I've just come back from a mini road trip, taking in meetings at Somerset last Wednesday, then Belle Vue Fri, Leicester Sat & Scunthorpe Sun.

 

I saw Cameron Heeps ride in all 4 meetings, for 4 different clubs and Danny King & Michael Palm Toft ride in the last 3, for 3 different clubs. How crazy is that?

[Sidney the robin]

That is so , I am in the 60 years of watching phase and YES there is some truth in the above but we have not yet lost all of our critical faculties about life and speedway. Also speedway has failed for a variety of reasons to attract hordes of younger fans who might have pushed us seniors to one side with their buzzing enthusiasm - and who rarely moan. The criticisms many of us have are genuine and are factors in why the sport is not attractive to young people. It's still run mostly in an old fashioned manner which even wrinkles like me can see. So little has changed in the 50 years except the bike technology. And it has become so more more of a Gate and Go show, which it always was but to a lesser degree. Except at the highest level as in the GP!

One thing i have learned is some of the younger generation think 17 quid is to much to pay so don't go where someone like myself am quite willing to pay.You would of thought that would of been the other way around with the oldies having the stigma of all being tight buggers.

[moxey63]

I've just come back from a mini road trip, taking in meetings at Somerset last Wednesday, then Belle Vue Fri, Leicester Sat & Scunthorpe Sun.

 

I saw Cameron Heeps ride in all 4 meetings, for 4 different clubs and Danny King & Michael Palm Toft ride in the last 3, for 3 different clubs. How crazy is that?

 

 

Were they even invited on your "mini road trip?" Some people just tag along.

 

Seriously though, doesn't that tell you how silly everything's gone.

Edited August 15, 2017 by moxey63

[TheReturn]

Absolutely Spot On!!!!!

 

That is what is missing now, 'our Riders' - nowadays they are anybodies Riders.

 

Unless the Authorities cotton on to this, ultimately Speedway is finished.

Exactly. I spent season after season going to every single meeting, home and away watching Long Eaton, and it always felt like I was watching a team. These days I don't follow any club, because it's not my team.... reading this it seems like those of you with clubs to support still are also feeling the same, you have a club but no real team to support.

 

Somebody posted a suggestion on another thread last week (I think), at the time I thought it was a silly suggestion but reflecting on this thread it makes sense, to reward teams with an average deduction for a rider for retaining that rider the following season.

 

I guess one problem is that it's become a vicious cycle... allowing riders to ride for lots of clubs in the UK and abroad means they are getting injured because of more meetings, hence needing more guests and more r/r. I don't have an answer, hopefully the more intelligent on the forum do.

Edited August 15, 2017 by TheReturn

[paulboy]

 

Were they even invited on your "mini road trip?" Some people just tag along.

 

Seriously though, doesn't that tell you how silly everything's gone.

And for good measure I saw Cameron & Danny on the box last night as well, although both were riding for their own clubs this time!

[The White Knight]

Exactly. I spent season after season going to every single meeting, home and away watching Long Eaton, and it always felt like I was watching a team. These days I don't follow any club, because it's not my team.... reading this it seems like those of you with clubs to support still are also feeling the same, you have a club but no real team to support.

 

Somebody posted a suggestion on another thread last week (I think), at the time I thought it was a silly suggestion but reflecting on this thread it makes sense, to reward teams with an average deduction for a rider for retaining that rider the following season.

 

I guess one problem is that it's become a vicious cycle... allowing riders to ride for lots of clubs in the UK and abroad means they are getting injured because of more meetings, hence needing more guests and more r/r. I don't have an answer, hopefully the more intelligent on the forum do.

That let's me out then......................... :sad:

[Gemini]

One thing i have learned is some of the younger generation think 17 quid is to much to pay so don't go where someone like myself am quite willing to pay.You would of thought that would of been the other way around with the oldies having the stigma of all being tight buggers.

Not just the younger generation as I should think someone 50 plus is classed as middle aged. I was talking to my nephew at a family funeral last week and he said he and his son went to the Sidecar meeting at Leicester which they really enjoyed so thought they'd attend the next Speedway match. His verdict ~ too expensive and too much messing around between races and what's all this about a sun break! They won't be going again.

[Al Stewart]

 

So when my team (Sheffield) go to Edinburgh without their number one who is riding for Somerset and we borrow a rider from Glasgow, one of our main rivals for winning the league, to replace him, that's the sign of a good well run sport is it?

 

This is an interesting case because I think Sheffield could easily have avoided this when the draft fixtures were issued. There are quite a few Fridays when Somerset are NOT racing and the matches at Edinburgh (3 of them, he's missed them all) could have been switched to these dates. I had a feeling they were not unhappy to use guests for Grajczonek with his inevitable high average.

 

That doesn't alter the main point of course.

[moxey63]

although both were riding for their own clubs this time!

 

But did both actually care? It's about earning a crust I expect they're bothered about. You certainly get that feeling.

Edited August 15, 2017 by moxey63

[IainB]

I really don't think stuff like doubling up concerns many young, future fans, it's the entertainment they get at their track on the night what matters imo, the interaction of their team on the night etc.

 

That may very well be the case for new fans to the sport... but after a while they need more, especially after they've sat through a few sun breaks and farcical matches and then start to wonder why on earth it is they are still going. Surely the whole idea of league team speedway is to field a team, if you can't do this you may as well just put events on like American or Australian speedway or UK Grasstrack

[tigerowl]

Sorry if this a long post, bear with me.

 

My first meeting was Sheffield v Hull in 1974. The Sheffield team that night was Bob Valentine, Bob Paulson, Doug Wyer, Reg Wilson, Arnie Haley, Craig Pendlebury and Rod Haynes. Four of that team had come through the second halves at Sheffield, one had been a Belle Vue junior but had been at Sheffield for nearly 10 years, one was a young lad that Sheffield had taken a chance with after showing some promise in the Second Division and Bob Valentine was an Australian that the Tigers had brought over four or so years before. This was a true Sheffield team and there was a connection between the riders and the fans and vice-versa. The sport wasn't perfect by any means as Bob Valentine was taken away by 'Rider Control' and placed with Coventry the following season, but the sport had at least some credibility.

 

I know that The White Knight watched Middlesbrough for many years. They also rode on a Thursday night so I only ever had one visit to Cleveland Park which was in 1986. The Middlesbrough team that night was Steve Wilcock, Mark Courtney, Gary Havelock, Martin Dixon, Jim Burdfield, Glenn Hornby and Roland Tebbs. The construction of this team is almost identical in nature to that of Sheffield in 1974 and I remember distinctly how passionate the Middlesbrough fans were that night and how the team mattered to them. Jim Burdfield scored a maximum that night and I will always remember how this was received by the supporters.

 

I accept that there was still doubling up of sorts in those days and the likes of Joe Owen (Newcastle and Hull), Steve Weatherley (Eastbourne and White City) and Michael Lee (Boston and King's Lynn) spring to mind. However, there were often connections between the two teams and although not a perfect situation, it was more manageable and acceptable. Things now have just got stupidly out of hand and the situation now where we have Craig Cook as the captain of two teams in two leagues just makes a mockery of the sport.

 

We have to stop running the sport for average speedway riders who want to ride full time. The numbers on the terraces do not justify this and we have to try and attract back some of the fans who are becoming lost to the sport and also some new faces. The racing is good enough to make people want to come back for more but I think the average punter wants more than that, he or she wants a team to support and have that connection I felt as a young lad in 1974 or as a one off visitor in 1986.

 

There are enough riders to go around and we many have to look at some of the lesser known speedway countries like Germany, Netherlands, Austria and France to fill out the teams but look at the success of the Riss brothers as an example of what can be achieved.

 

I still think speedway can be the best sport in the world but a recent Sheffield v Ipswich meeting had 13 of the 14 riders who were either doubling up or doubling down and this surely cannot be right.

 

**And another thing that boils my blood. Kent v Lakeside last night - both teams using guests for their number one riders. Promote the number eights and give the kids a chance for god's sake!!!! **

Edited August 15, 2017 by tigerowl