moxey63 Posted September 5, 2017 Report Share Posted September 5, 2017 (edited) Doubling up! You can never eliminate guests, even if you limited them to young British riders or whatever, there would still be need for a substitute at times. But other sports don't have guests, do they? Sometimes these so called promoters should have to look a bit further than another British club to help their business. A few hidings without borrowing someone else's asset would soon make them see there's no other option other than scout the globe for a replacement. Too much reliance on getting the show on, no matter who with, means we've stayed in the same state as we were 50 years ago. A club sending out weakened teams should be charged with bringing the sport into disrepute. And, do you know what... just like last winter... we'll be having another thread discussing where we should go in 2018... and nothing will change. But more fans will see the light and become disillusioned. But as long as we get to Heat 10, who cares? Edited September 5, 2017 by moxey63 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foamfence Posted September 5, 2017 Report Share Posted September 5, 2017 But other sports don't have guests, do they? Sometimes these so called promoters should have to look a bit further than another British club to help their business. A few hidings without borrowing someone else's asset would soon make them see there's no other option other than scout the globe for a replacement. Too much reliance on getting the show on, no matter who with, means we've stayed in the same state as we were 50 years ago. A club sending out weakened teams should be charged with bringing the sport into disrepute. But if you have someone out injured and another rider is called up for some official international purpose, the only instant and short-term answers would be to have a guest (even a youngster) or turn up with five riders. When the latter has happened it hasn't gone down well on this forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattK Posted September 5, 2017 Report Share Posted September 5, 2017 OUT of interest, how did you come up with the figure of 50? I think Dean is assuming 34 league meetings, 8 cup, 4 play-offs and 4 shared meetings, equally 50. The same calculations for today's double-uppers would be 64 league meetings, 10 cup, 6 shared and 6 play-offs, equalling 86 meetings (minus clashes). There are riders that don't double up and riders who fit in work alongside racing, so it shouldn't be essential. True and I would be interested to know how many of them make a living from one club and how many feel it is a long-term sustainable income. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moxey63 Posted September 5, 2017 Report Share Posted September 5, 2017 But if you have someone out injured and another rider is called up for some official international purpose, the only instant and short-term answers would be to have a guest (even a youngster) or turn up with five riders. When the latter has happened it hasn't gone down well on this forum. But we have become to reliant on guests. A club running when one of his riders is on International duty... is it worthwhile putting back the meeting and having the full line-up or just getting it out of the way and making the sport look daft? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHILIPRISING Posted September 5, 2017 Report Share Posted September 5, 2017 I think Dean is assuming 34 league meetings, 8 cup, 4 play-offs and 4 shared meetings, equally 50. The same calculations for today's double-uppers would be 64 league meetings, 10 cup, 6 shared and 6 play-offs, equalling 86 meetings (minus clashes). True and I would be interested to know how many of them make a living from one club and how many feel it is a long-term sustainable income. ONLY a small percentage would do 50 even if they remained fit throughout the season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foamfence Posted September 5, 2017 Report Share Posted September 5, 2017 But we have become to reliant on guests. A club running when one of his riders is on International duty... is it worthwhile putting back the meeting and having the full line-up or just getting it out of the way and making the sport look daft? We could certainly cut down, especially when you see two teams each having a guest at number one, surely R/R should apply in such a case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHILIPRISING Posted September 5, 2017 Report Share Posted September 5, 2017 But other sports don't have guests, do they? Sometimes these so called promoters should have to look a bit further than another British club to help their business. A few hidings without borrowing someone else's asset would soon make them see there's no other option other than scout the globe for a replacement. Too much reliance on getting the show on, no matter who with, means we've stayed in the same state as we were 50 years ago. A club sending out weakened teams should be charged with bringing the sport into disrepute. And, do you know what... just like last winter... we'll be having another thread discussing where we should go in 2018... and nothing will change. But more fans will see the light and become disillusioned. But as long as we get to Heat 10, who cares? YOU simply cannot compare speedway with any other team sport, not even cricket where play is conducted by one individual at a time ... bowler or batsman. Swindon fans no doubt would not be happy replacing Doyle or Wolves with Lindgren by using a junior rider. The disparity in ability is too great. To use cricket again, counties have huge squads of players and there is not a massive difference in the ability of all of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE DEAN MACHINE Posted September 5, 2017 Report Share Posted September 5, 2017 (edited) ONLY a small percentage would do 50 even if they remained fit throughout the season.why wouldn't they if they remained fit ?, I was spanering for skornicki until he got the sack , he was only riding for wolves and about 10 meetings for rawicz around 40 meetings in total so it can be done , Edited September 5, 2017 by THE DEAN MACHINE 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hacksaw Jim Duggan Posted September 5, 2017 Report Share Posted September 5, 2017 (edited) YOU simply cannot compare speedway with any other team sport, not even cricket where play is conducted by one individual at a time ... bowler or batsman. Swindon fans no doubt would not be happy replacing Doyle or Wolves with Lindgren by using a junior rider. The disparity in ability is too great. To use cricket again, counties have huge squads of players and there is not a massive difference in the ability of all of them. I appreciate the logic in that but outwith injury how many meetings will most sides Number 1 rider miss across a season? I would hazard a guess that injury is the only reason either Doyle or Lindgren are likely to miss a meeting – in such instances a guest should be an option – injury to Number 1. Other than that a squad is viable I think, Aaron Summers as an example could be part of a squad and step in to replace any second or third highest averaging rider in a Championship side without a massive drop in quality, or at least not to the point it would render a meeting a non-contest. Paul Starke to use an example being used as a guest for numerous sides in the Premiership when he already had a Premiership and Championship side feels slightly silly to me when riders the likes of the afore mentioned Summers, Doolan, Busk Jakobsen, Ostergaard could be used rather than another clubs rider from the same league (Starke) I appreciate issues around averages etc and so on but it might be time to drop such hard and fast rules and allow sides a bit of flexibility in the instances of their squad members at least – or possibly have Grade A riders to step in for riders placed 2/3 in the averages and Grade B for riders places 4-7 in the averages. If these squad members were used in the instanced of fixture clashes only it would remove the feeling of sides being manipulated for an advantage. Edited September 5, 2017 by Hacksaw Jim Duggan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IainB Posted September 5, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 5, 2017 WHAT you say makes sense, although none of us know how many fans are actually being lost and for what reason each week (my own feeling is lack of continuity of fixtures and teams is the biggest reason) but many insist that there would not be enough riders currently in the top 5 of one track to fill all the places in an 18 or even 19 (Lakeside) set-up. Guests or doubling up, if you had to have one which one would it be? personally I've never minded guests so much, I understand that riding speedway involves a high risk of being injured and the money isn't there and never really had been to run a squad of high enough calibre riders to replace any injured riders with. I also feel less short changed when a guest rider turns out for my team instead of the risky r/r or the complete sham of a junior rider, if I'm paying top dollar I want to see a competitive team. Doubling up is like a self imposed injury on the team and indeed a double whammy as not only are you depriving your team of that particular rider you are then also replacing him with a guest... The worst of both worlds! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B.V 72 Posted September 5, 2017 Report Share Posted September 5, 2017 If they can sort out different race nights for both leagues and there are no clashes there will be no doubling up or down. The riders will just be riding for another team in a different league just like many riders ride overseas for a different team in a different league in Poland,Sweden and Denmark and fans seem fine with that. Just as a eg for next year with no clashes between British clubs going off the teams the riders ride for this years and there is no change. Cook rides for 2 teams in Britain. Bjerre 1 British team and SwedenDenmark. Fricke 1 British team Poland/Sweden. Tungate 1 British team and Poland. They could ride for other teams as well but without researching these are the teams I know about but in a truth if they turn out for Belle vue I do not really care. So my point is with separate leagues and no clashes next year whats the difference in riding for 2 teams in Britain and riding for 1 team in Britain and 1 in Poland none what so ever to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IainB Posted September 5, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 5, 2017 If they can sort out different race nights for both leagues and there are no clashes there will be no doubling up or down. The riders will just be riding for another team in a different league just like many riders ride overseas for a different team in a different league in Poland,Sweden and Denmark and fans seem fine with that. Just as a eg for next year with no clashes between British clubs going off the teams the riders ride for this years and there is no change. Cook rides for 2 teams in Britain. Bjerre 1 British team and SwedenDenmark. Fricke 1 British team Poland/Sweden. Tungate 1 British team and Poland. They could ride for other teams as well but without researching these are the teams I know about but in a truth if they turn out for Belle vue I do not really care. So my point is with separate leagues and no clashes next year whats the difference in riding for 2 teams in Britain and riding for 1 team in Britain and 1 in Poland none what so ever to me. erm No! Riding in a league where they may meet themselves in a promotion/relegation fight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHILIPRISING Posted September 5, 2017 Report Share Posted September 5, 2017 erm No! Riding in a league where they may meet themselves in a promotion/relegation fight DO seriously think there will be promotion and relegation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foamfence Posted September 5, 2017 Report Share Posted September 5, 2017 If they can sort out different race nights for both leagues and there are no clashes there will be no doubling up or down. The riders will just be riding for another team in a different league just like many riders ride overseas for a different team in a different league in Poland,Sweden and Denmark and fans seem fine with that. Just as a eg for next year with no clashes between British clubs going off the teams the riders ride for this years and there is no change. Cook rides for 2 teams in Britain. Bjerre 1 British team and SwedenDenmark. Fricke 1 British team Poland/Sweden. Tungate 1 British team and Poland. They could ride for other teams as well but without researching these are the teams I know about but in a truth if they turn out for Belle vue I do not really care. So my point is with separate leagues and no clashes next year whats the difference in riding for 2 teams in Britain and riding for 1 team in Britain and 1 in Poland none what so ever to me. It all sounds ideal and that seems to be what is going to happen but if a club can only use one of those nights and they have a few rain-offs, then they are still going to have to encroach on nights allotted to a different league, in order to complete their fixtures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE DEAN MACHINE Posted September 5, 2017 Report Share Posted September 5, 2017 Genuine question as I losing track of who rides where , does Scott Nichols double up ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IainB Posted September 5, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 5, 2017 DO seriously think there will be promotion and relegation? no I don't... But Leicester are mentioning it in their press releases so I assume it's still onGenuine question as I losing track of who rides where , does Scott Nichols double up ? good question because he has been doing guest appearances in the 2nd league... When was this allowed to happen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE DEAN MACHINE Posted September 5, 2017 Report Share Posted September 5, 2017 DO seriously think there will be promotion and relegation? then why the hell did the bspa announce it , they really are their own worst enemy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IainB Posted September 5, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 5, 2017 then why the hell did the bspa announce it , they really are their own worst enemy it says on the Leicester website that there will be a playoff, whether the 2nd league winner of successful gets promoted is another matter... Didn't it happen before a few years back when the winner declined to be promoted? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHILIPRISING Posted September 5, 2017 Report Share Posted September 5, 2017 HYPOTHETICALLY, if Leicester finish bottom of the PL, but don't wish to drop down, and Edinburgh top the CL but don't wish to go up, what do you think will happen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IainB Posted September 5, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 5, 2017 HYPOTHETICALLY, if Leicester finish bottom of the PL, but don't wish to drop down, and Edinburgh top the CL but don't wish to go up, what do you think will happen? I think what'll happen is what happened before, can't remember who it was, maybe Newcastle and Glasgow? But let's wait for it to happen before slamming the BSPA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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