IainB Posted September 3, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 3, 2017 (edited) in the event of a fixture clash will always be the top league, as it is now. this is not how it happens now Edited September 3, 2017 by iainb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan_Jones Posted September 4, 2017 Report Share Posted September 4, 2017 I've just done a rough count of riders , there were 114 riders who rode in the top 2 leagues this year and around 60 that ride national league alone ,one big league of 18 teams of 5 =90 riders needed (surplus of 24 riders ) + 2 under 21 British reserves who can double up to make the teams , this doesn't take in to account any foreign riders who would like to ride over here and there are some , it can be done and should be done and all those who say not enough riders I've just got cramp from writing all the names down just to prove it can happen IF you can put 18 teams together with no doubling up, please send to me at phil@pinegen.co.uk. Would like to use in SS. Here's my attempt at https://www.dropbox.com/s/f7j1s6eh9153as2/Speedway.pdf?dl=0 A similar approach to Dean but I've made it two U23 reserves which avoids throwing too many raw U21s in too early but doesn't really make a great deal of difference. If that's dumbed down too far for some there's a 2nd version which replaces the reserves from the full rider pool and leaves over a hundred riders for the NDL without doubling up. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted September 4, 2017 Report Share Posted September 4, 2017 Nice work. Have to say, that looks awful as a top flight. Can only see crowds dropping significantly. Racing quality to deteriorate due to gap between top and bottom riders. Surely fixed race nights, with doubling up allowed for Brits is the way to go? If top riders come back great, but the main driver is to eliminate domestic fixture clashes and minimise fixture clashes caused by overseas meetings. While still maintaining a top flight of sufficient quality to maintain crowd levels and allow promising Brits to develop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foamfence Posted September 4, 2017 Report Share Posted September 4, 2017 The results of the twitter poll were 588 voted 47% voted to scrap it , 26% to keep it and 27% for under 21 Brits only and it seems steve worral took offence to it That was due to the realisation that he might have to get a job. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE DEAN MACHINE Posted September 4, 2017 Report Share Posted September 4, 2017 The one point which I tried to explain to Steve worrall was with one league run on Monday and Thursday 18 teams means 34 garenteed neetings + play offs +4s + any other meetings including guest bookings and he gets his Sunday free to ride for rawich or whoever in Poland and maybe Sweden on Tuesday but he said it's not enough , to use his words "that's not going to pay the mortgage and equipment " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattK Posted September 4, 2017 Report Share Posted September 4, 2017 The one point which I tried to explain to Steve worrall was with one league run on Monday and Thursday 18 teams means 34 garenteed neetings + play offs +4s + any other meetings including guest bookings and he gets his Sunday free to ride for rawich or whoever in Poland and maybe Sweden on Tuesday but he said it's not enough , to use his words "that's not going to pay the mortgage and equipment " You wouldn't need one big league AND fixed race nights. It is either/or. I can understand Worrall's point, riders would effectively lose half their income with one big league, which isn't a consideration which should be ignored. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foamfence Posted September 4, 2017 Report Share Posted September 4, 2017 You wouldn't need one big league AND fixed race nights. It is either/or. I can understand Worrall's point, riders would effectively lose half their income with one big league, which isn't a consideration which should be ignored. Neither is the sport going bankrupt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE DEAN MACHINE Posted September 4, 2017 Report Share Posted September 4, 2017 (edited) You wouldn't need one big league AND fixed race nights. It is either/or. I can understand Worrall's point, riders would effectively lose half their income with one big league, which isn't a consideration which should be ignored. explain how he would loose money ? He would be getting up to 50 meetings in Britain 34 of them gaurenteed and has his weekends free to make it in Poland , he doesn't have a point he just can't see past the end of his nose , if all 18 teams form one league then he will get the same amount of meetings as if he doubled up ,only difference is he will only be riding for one Edited September 4, 2017 by THE DEAN MACHINE 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foamfence Posted September 4, 2017 Report Share Posted September 4, 2017 explain how he would loose money ? He would be getting up to 50 meetings in Britain 34 of them gaurenteed and has his weekends free to make it in Poland , he doesn't have a point he just can't see past the end of his nose If that came to be, they'd all still be at the start line next Spring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattK Posted September 4, 2017 Report Share Posted September 4, 2017 explain how he would loose money ? He would be getting up to 50 meetings in Britain 34 of them gaurenteed and has his weekends free to make it in Poland , he doesn't have a point he just can't see past the end of his nose , if all 18 teams form one league then he will get the same amount of meetings as if he doubled up ,only difference is he will only be riding for one At the moment Worrall has 64 meetings, 28 in the Premiership and 36 in the Championship (assuming no clashes), plus play-offs and assorted shared events. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frigbo Posted September 4, 2017 Report Share Posted September 4, 2017 Yet another example of a rider thinking he has a divine right to be a full-time speedway rider in the UK. He'll be gagging for "up to 50 meetings" when the current self-centred rider approach comes home to roost and the leagues collapse. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattK Posted September 4, 2017 Report Share Posted September 4, 2017 Yet another example of a rider thinking he has a divine right to be a full-time speedway rider in the UK. He'll be gagging for "up to 50 meetings" when the current self-centred rider approach comes home to roost and the leagues collapse. I don't understand this kind of attitude. Fans say they want riders who are loyal to Britain speedway yet these very same riders should not expect to make a decent living from the sport. I would rather see riders who are loyal to Britain and double-up to make a living, than limiting doubling-up and forcing riders to race aboard in order to make it pay. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waytogo28 Posted September 4, 2017 Report Share Posted September 4, 2017 One day they will understand ( they being riders who feel the same as Worrall ) take what is on offer or don't ride at all. Those who believe that this not enough should sell their bikes now because it may not be next year, but within two or three years, speedway in the UK will look very different to now. It may not be such a good offer as one big league. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hacksaw Jim Duggan Posted September 4, 2017 Report Share Posted September 4, 2017 (edited) A one league structure with set race nights wouldn’t work for obvious reasons. A one league structure where clubs retain their race nights e.g Berwick, Glasgow, Workington, Newcastle – leads a to a league where numerous riders would miss meetings due to commitments on the continent clashing with weekend tracks and escalate costs for clubs having to accommodate additional travel needs, getting riders to the tracks on a Saturday and to the continent on time on a Sunday in the instances when they could fit in a Saturday meeting This doesn't just extent to top riders like Doyle, Lindgren and Cook, they sure aren't accountable in a one league structure so might as well remove them from team suggestions - it extends to riders who are supposed to fill their calendar by finding teams places in Poland While fixture planning to accommodate said tracks could be accounted for to minimalize clashes - it leaves next to no wriggle room should the country encounter poor weather – which often happens and leads to a backlog of fixtures. It also doesn’t fully consider the logistics of National Events, World Cup week and Cardiff running on a Saturday which further limits the option of weekends where weekend tracks could run and face full strength teams It would likely only end up the exact same issue apparently irking so many now…guests, R/R and riders missing – only it would cost clubs a fair bit more for the privilege and likely see the riders the country would need to fill teams asking for more due to the increased premium required to ride here and possibly turn down larger money on the continent. A lot of these exercises would escalate costs at a time when that is the last thing the sport needs. Sticking riders in teams is a fun exercise but it doesn't account for actual issues and costs involved in putting riders in teams. Edited September 4, 2017 by Hacksaw Jim Duggan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattK Posted September 4, 2017 Report Share Posted September 4, 2017 Going to one big league racing on non fixed days is a much better option that keeping two leagues and going for fixed days, particularly if one of those days is Monday. I doubt finding riders will be an issue with Sweden appearing to be in a much worse position than UK (where did that go wrong?). The problem would be tracks running on a Sunday, and even that isn't really an issue if there are only a handful of riders who have both British and Polish teams, otherwise it will work. Two leagues and two fixed days would be a disaster especially if one was a Monday. Belle Vue was unsustainable after being forced to move from Friday to Monday, even the only Monday night track is complaining of crap support, so forcing a team to move their race day to Monday would probably see them in the same boat as wolves without the 'traditional' race day to bolster it. If it is to be fixed days then Wednesday (working with the Danes), Thursday and Friday (working around the small number of riders affected by the GP etc) are much better options as most pl tracks run on those days already. My issue with one big league is that it represents a huge shift in how British speedway is run and therefore has much more potential to go catastrophically wrong. Couple this with the BSPAs propensity for decisions which have unintended consequences (change in heat format, this year's average farce) I don't have much confidence that it can be delivered without some hideous mess. The only possible way around this I can think of is if the BSPA outline the changes, but they are embargoed for a year so that clever people (fans) can point out the shortfalls and the promoters therefore have time to iron out the kinks. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frigbo Posted September 4, 2017 Report Share Posted September 4, 2017 (edited) I don't understand this kind of attitude. Fans say they want riders who are loyal to Britain speedway yet these very same riders should not expect to make a decent living from the sport. I would rather see riders who are loyal to Britain and double-up to make a living, than limiting doubling-up and forcing riders to race aboard in order to make it pay. My only requirement is for the farcical doubling-up and guest situations to be removed. If this is supposed to be a team sport then it needs to become one; it's a million miles from it at the moment. Frankly, the fans and clubs are far more improtant than the riders and pandering to their every need is a large reason towards why things are where they are. The riders (majority of) only care about themselves and it's about time British speedway adopted the same attitude in a last-ditch attempt to rescue a rapidly declining position. Edited September 4, 2017 by frigbo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE DEAN MACHINE Posted September 4, 2017 Report Share Posted September 4, 2017 (edited) Judging by the responses from riders to me maybe it's time to shut down team speedway , make the sport like motox , the riders pay to enter then win prize money, that's all that matters to them , the fans can just go find something else to do , we won't be missed , how the hell did we get to this?🙁 Edited September 4, 2017 by THE DEAN MACHINE 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IainB Posted September 4, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 4, 2017 Judging by the responses from riders to me maybe it's time to shut down team speedway , make the sport like motox , the riders pay to enter then win prize money, that's all that matters to them , the fans can just go find something else to do , we won't be missed , how the hell did we get to this?🙁 True, this is the way it'll inevitably end up MotoX or Grasstrack style. I was listening to an interview with Simon Lambert (I think) at the farce that was Peterborough vs Newcastle and he was saying how he likes to do all the meetings as it keeps him busy and is an opportunity to earn money. This is a line you hear all too often in speedway these days. You have to question a riders involvement in the (so called) sport, is it just a job or are they in it to be part of a team and win things? These days probably the former. In an ideal world it'd be both. I wonder what the attitude of the riders were when they first started speedway... The sporting aspect or the "fame and fortune"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hacksaw Jim Duggan Posted September 4, 2017 Report Share Posted September 4, 2017 (edited) Judging by the responses from riders to me maybe it's time to shut down team speedway , make the sport like motox , the riders pay to enter then win prize money, that's all that matters to them , the fans can just go find something else to do , we won't be missed , how the hell did we get to this? Other than Steve Worrall what other riders have replied that made you jump over the Grand Canyon to that conclusion? Edited September 4, 2017 by Hacksaw Jim Duggan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE DEAN MACHINE Posted September 4, 2017 Report Share Posted September 4, 2017 (edited) Other than Steve Worrall what other riders have replied that made you jump over the Grand Canyon to that conclusion? they were private messages but I did also get some support but not from riders and if you want to judge support look a riders who like his posts, sorry if i didn't use the right words or you didn't understand my point Edited September 4, 2017 by THE DEAN MACHINE 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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