Time To Scrap Doubling Up?

[The White Knight]

So you want to be able to identify with and support your own team, just not financially.

 

Bottom line is Pandora's box is open. A double up rider now has circa 70-80 meetings to earn from. You take that away and allow them to only ride for one team, that's basically halving their earning potential. What happens then? Double the riders pay rates? Pass that on to the supporter? Or riders retire further watering down the product? Not good outcomes.

 

Get rid of doubling up and the crowds flood back to pay the higher pay rates? Nice dream.

 

Plus we all want more competitive British riders and the additional track time can only help that. And it's not exactly a new idea. I seem to recall in the good old days the top National League riders would ride at reserve for another team in the British League.

 

Agreed the current situation is terrible but structured correctly (i.e. fixed race night for the top division and/or different format) the positives of doubling up could be retained whilst the constant guests and R/R negatives would be removed.

 

Going back just isn't an option so a new way has to be found.

Great Post with which I almost totally agree enotian. I sadly can't argue with you. But as so so rightly say "Pandora's box is open" now. I don't even pretend to have the answers, but if Speedway wishes to continue a few realities have to be faced by the powers that be. At the moment they either do not recognize the problem or they don't know what to do about it. At the end of the day, The Dean Machine is right - people will support a Speedway TEAM - as long as that is what it is - a TEAM.

 

I support the England Cricket TEAM

 

I support Sunderland Football TEAM - you get my drift.

 

TEAM is the operative word - not a hotch potch of Riders with a Racejacket stuck on.

 

Some people may not like that - but it is true.

[enotian]

Great Post with which I almost totally agree enotian. I sadly can't argue with you. But as so so rightly say "Pandora's box is open" now. I don't even pretend to have the answers, but if Speedway wishes to continue a few realities have to be faced by the powers that be. At the moment they either do not recognize the problem or they don't know what to do about it. At the end of the day, The Dean Machine is right - people will support a Speedway TEAM - as long as that is what it is - a TEAM.

 

I support the England Cricket TEAM

 

I support Sunderland Football TEAM - you get my drift.

 

TEAM is the operative word - not a hotch potch of Riders with a Racejacket stuck on.

 

Some people may not like that - but it is true.

 

I also support Sunderland football TEAM but have absolutely no connection or affinity with the highly paid individuals who wear the shirt because the club offered them better terms than anyone else and will disappear as soon as a better offer comes along (granted some exceptions exist). Indeed a number of them play for another team as well as Sunderland, just not at the same time (loanees). I'll support Sunderland regardless of who pulls the shirt on (with the exception of Johnson, during which I had a time out for obvious reasons) because it's the club I've invested in since being a child. During which time there's been some highs unfortunately outweighed by lows but that's sport.

 

I would say your average speedway rider invests more into the club(s) they ride for than the majority of footballers. Doesn't mean I don't still love my football.

 

The decision point for going to a sporting event for me is will it be an entertaining contest. Football got its house in order years ago in terms of pitches and facilities and is reaping the rewards (although despite the pitches some of the standard of football played on them leaves a lot to be desired).

 

This is where the speedway authorities have let the sport down. Some of the tracks are just not conducive to producing entertaining racing. In some cases it's unfortunate because the bikes have evolved beyond the constraints of some of the British tracks but there appears to be a notion that entertainment = home win so tracks are prepared for home track advantage rather than to produce the best entertainment.

 

Add to this the fact that the majority now get to see (sometimes) top class entertainment in SGP or SWC the British product is mostly inferior in comparison. Get the on track fundamentals right and it really shouldn't matter that much who is riding for who.

 

All sport is now business so the economics can't be ignored. Speedway does not generate enough income to employ the riders full time. That's why they're self employed and paid per appearance so who can blame them for wanting to maximizing that.

 

Don't get me wrong I don't like doubling up it seems strange and guests are even worse for the integrity of the sport but giving the riders enough fixtures to earn a decent living is a necessary evil. And is Robert Lambert riding for Kings Lynn and Newcastle any different to him also riding for Masarna and Rybnik and a German team?

 

If the structure was right to ensure that, even with doubling up, a team always lines up with their declared seven (injuries permitting) and scratch selects are avoided would it matter that those riders also ride in another league? As long as they're never double booked and are available for each fixture.

 

And this isn't just prevalent in Speedway. There's now a T20 cricket merry-go-round of IPL, Big Bash, T20 Blast featuring a lot of similar faces and you'll soon see players signed to a county and a city franchise in the new T20 competition. If it improves the product nobody is bothered about monogamy anymore.

 

Without having paid too much attention to the Premiership this season apart from a couple of TV matches it actually looks like an interesting league with unpredictability and away wins (Leicester @ Belle Vue??? who'd have predicted that?) apart from Swindon walking away with it thanks to Musielak for Gappmaier/Grondal. Other than that the teams seem evenly matched with reserves able to compete with heat leaders. Clearly the Kings Lynn Farces need to get their house in order but in general it seems a competitive league at a decent standard, just a shame so many matches involve so many guests. Fixed race night would surely minimize that.

[PHILIPRISING]

When I went to Speedway, I wanted to see MY Team, MY Riders who I could identify with. I liked feeling part of the whole Team thing. Since that has, more or less, all gone from the Sport, what is left is a mere shadow of what Speedway used to be.

 

What the Promoters fail to grasp is that half of the pleasure of going to the Speedway was talking with your Riders, socialising with your Riders and you would follow your Team away, recognise Riders who would, if they saw you, give you a wave.

 

Nowadays when Riders come out on to the Track a lot (probably most) don't even look at the Crowd who have paid to come and see them, they just trudge towards their Bikes.

 

That is the way I see it anyway.

I'M with you on this one

[Gunner85]

There are 28 riders in the top league who are doubling with another team.

 

If it is scrapped where are the riders coming from to fill those gaps ?.....

 

Fixed nights is the way forward so there are no clashes

 

This is being considered by the BSPA but whether it happens is another story.

 

Personally fixed nights is the way forward...possibly 2 for the top tier and two for the second tier.

 

It may be possible to have one fixed night for the top tier if the logistics work out.

Edited August 26, 2017 by Gunner85

[THE DEAN MACHINE]

 

I also support Sunderland football TEAM but have absolutely no connection or affinity with the highly paid individuals who wear the shirt because the club offered them better terms than anyone else and will disappear as soon as a better offer comes along (granted some exceptions exist). Indeed a number of them play for another team as well as Sunderland, just not at the same time (loanees). I'll support Sunderland regardless of who pulls the shirt on (with the exception of Johnson, during which I had a time out for obvious reasons) because it's the club I've invested in since being a child. During which time there's been some highs unfortunately outweighed by lows but that's sport.

 

I would say your average speedway rider invests more into the club(s) they ride for than the majority of footballers. Doesn't mean I don't still love my football.

 

The decision point for going to a sporting event for me is will it be an entertaining contest. Football got its house in order years ago in terms of pitches and facilities and is reaping the rewards (although despite the pitches some of the standard of football played on them leaves a lot to be desired).

 

This is where the speedway authorities have let the sport down. Some of the tracks are just not conducive to producing entertaining racing. In some cases it's unfortunate because the bikes have evolved beyond the constraints of some of the British tracks but there appears to be a notion that entertainment = home win so tracks are prepared for home track advantage rather than to produce the best entertainment.

 

Add to this the fact that the majority now get to see (sometimes) top class entertainment in SGP or SWC the British product is mostly inferior in comparison. Get the on track fundamentals right and it really shouldn't matter that much who is riding for who.

 

All sport is now business so the economics can't be ignored. Speedway does not generate enough income to employ the riders full time. That's why they're self employed and paid per appearance so who can blame them for wanting to maximizing that.

 

Don't get me wrong I don't like doubling up it seems strange and guests are even worse for the integrity of the sport but giving the riders enough fixtures to earn a decent living is a necessary evil. And is Robert Lambert riding for Kings Lynn and Newcastle any different to him also riding for Masarna and Rybnik and a German team?

 

If the structure was right to ensure that, even with doubling up, a team always lines up with their declared seven (injuries permitting) and scratch selects are avoided would it matter that those riders also ride in another league? As long as they're never double booked and are available for each fixture.

 

And this isn't just prevalent in Speedway. There's now a T20 cricket merry-go-round of IPL, Big Bash, T20 Blast featuring a lot of similar faces and you'll soon see players signed to a county and a city franchise in the new T20 competition. If it improves the product nobody is bothered about monogamy anymore.

 

Without having paid too much attention to the Premiership this season apart from a couple of TV matches it actually looks like an interesting league with unpredictability and away wins (Leicester @ Belle Vue??? who'd have predicted that?) apart from Swindon walking away with it thanks to Musielak for Gappmaier/Grondal. Other than that the teams seem evenly matched with reserves able to compete with heat leaders. Clearly the Kings Lynn Farces need to get their house in order but in general it seems a competitive league at a decent standard, just a shame so many matches involve so many guests. Fixed race night would surely minimize that.

I do agree with a lot of this post but where I do disagree is it does matter who rides for who , look at the following that polish teams have , same product as us but they get the team concept , we went to leszno a few weeks ago for a league match , from the moment you step in the place you know your at leszno , all the fans wear the same colour leszno clothes and the bond between the fans and riders is there for all to see , we sat right by the start gate and when a leszno rider was off gate 4 the fans were all but jumping on his bike to get behind him , the only doubling up allowed is under 21 polish reserves and that's for a purpose to bring young poles on , they don't allow guests and quite frankly would riot if one were used , they are their riders and it does matter by a long stretch just like it does in football , a team following will cover up a lot of short comings that may be happen in the rest of the sport but for me it is the basic principle of any team sport and without it I just follow the GP and polish league even though I have a track 3 miles from my house and was brought up with that team I don't go

[foamfence]

There are 28 riders in the top league who are doubling with another team.

 

If it is scrapped where are the riders coming from to fill those gaps ?.....

 

Fixed nights is the way forward so there are no clashes

 

This is being considered by the BSPA but whether it happens is another story.

 

Personally fixed nights is the way forward...possibly 2 for the top tier and two for the second tier.

 

It may be possible to have one fixed night for the top tier if the logistics work out.

There are some clubs in the top tier who don't want that, there might even be some who can't actually have access to their tracks on the selected night. There are other riders available from abroad and from the NL, that might mean a reduction in the averages but it does mean that it would be possible to eliminate doubling up between the top two tiers. Some say that the riders couldn't make a living but there ARE riders who do so in one league and there ARE riders who still work. Personally I would prefer one big league and no guests (other than from the NL) for riders absent because they're riding or practising elsewhere, some promoters might grumble but it would make them thing twice about overseas signings who think of this country as nothing more than a stepping stone.

[THE DEAN MACHINE]

https://www.facebook.com/dean.felton.39/posts/1532428323444545 It matters to these who ride for their team

[Fromafar]

That was Berwick in the 70s,you are right though.

[enotian]

I do agree with a lot of this post but where I do disagree is it does matter who rides for who , look at the following that polish teams have , same product as us but they get the team concept , we went to leszno a few weeks ago for a league match , from the moment you step in the place you know your at leszno , all the fans wear the same colour leszno clothes and the bond between the fans and riders is there for all to see , we sat right by the start gate and when a leszno rider was off gate 4 the fans were all but jumping on his bike to get behind him , the only doubling up allowed is under 21 polish reserves and that's for a purpose to bring young poles on , they don't allow guests and quite frankly would riot if one were used , they are their riders and it does matter by a long stretch just like it does in football , a team following will cover up a lot of short comings that may be happen in the rest of the sport but for me it is the basic principle of any team sport and without it I just follow the GP and polish league even though I have a track 3 miles from my house and was brought up with that team I don't go

But those Leszno riders don't ride exclusively for Leszno. Importantly, they don't ride for another Polish team (U21's aside) but some will ride for a Swedish team.

But they are always available for Leszno fixtures and the fans don't turn up wondering if they're seeing a full team or a select team and that's the problem we have here. We all accept injuries are part and parcel of speedway but to watch your team without a rider because he's riding for someone else is unacceptable. Probably why the polish authorities are clamping down on this.

All I suggest is that we should accept being able to see teams represented by their regular team members in the majority of fixtures and we shouldn't let what those riders do in their own time be of any concern. Even if that is riding for another team in a different league, even in the same country. It's not ideal but it's just a concept to get your head around. If they ride in all of my teams fixtures they're part of my team. What they do outside of that isn't my concern. Try it.

Fixed race nights for the top league would enable this but I think there also needs to be a distinction between the standards. The promotion relegation concept is a joke. The gap between the leagues should be wider. That can only happen if the top riders are lured back. Fixed race nights, less fixtures and better tracks will help but is it affordable???

I suggest the Polish experience is so much better (having not been to a Polish fixture) because the on track product is far superior and that's what British speedway needs to focus on, whilst accepting that we're not as fortunate as the Polish in this respect.

I guess the notion of team loyalty works both ways. We've all wanted an under performing rider dropped and replaced. It's harsh but also part of the fun. Where's your team loyalty then?

If you said I won't support a team that is made up of different guests and R/R week in week out, I'd fully support you.

But to say I won't support a team because some of that team ride for someone else is a fairly weak argument given the circumstances.

I suggest that if the on track action was amazing week in week out you would be able to turn a blind eye to riders having two teams.

My point being doubling up isn't totally to blame for the current state of British speedway it's the sub standard product. Especially when we all have access to seeing SGP's, SEC, SWC, Polish League etc etc. It's like watching an M&S advert then going to Poundland expecting to buy a meal deal but coming away with turkey twizzlers, having paid the M&S price. The fact that when you open your turkey twizzlers some of them have been replaced by chicken dinosaurs just adds insult to injury.

[foamfence]

But those Leszno riders don't ride exclusively for Leszno. Importantly, they don't ride for another Polish team (U21's aside) but some will ride for a Swedish team.

But they are always available for Leszno fixtures and the fans don't turn up wondering if they're seeing a full team or a select team and that's the problem we have here. We all accept injuries are part and parcel of speedway but to watch your team without a rider because he's riding for someone else is unacceptable. Probably why the polish authorities are clamping down on this.

All I suggest is that we should accept being able to see teams represented by their regular team members in the majority of fixtures and we shouldn't let what those riders do in their own time be of any concern. Even if that is riding for another team in a different league, even in the same country. It's not ideal but it's just a concept to get your head around. If they ride in all of my teams fixtures they're part of my team. What they do outside of that isn't my concern. Try it.

Fixed race nights for the top league would enable this but I think there also needs to be a distinction between the standards. The promotion relegation concept is a joke. The gap between the leagues should be wider. That can only happen if the top riders are lured back. Fixed race nights, less fixtures and better tracks will help but is it affordable???

I suggest the Polish experience is so much better (having not been to a Polish fixture) because the on track product is far superior and that's what British speedway needs to focus on, whilst accepting that we're not as fortunate as the Polish in this respect.

I guess the notion of team loyalty works both ways. We've all wanted an under performing rider dropped and replaced. It's harsh but also part of the fun. Where's your team loyalty then?

If you said I won't support a team that is made up of different guests and R/R week in week out, I'd fully support you.

But to say I won't support a team because some of that team ride for someone else is a fairly weak argument given the circumstances.

I suggest that if the on track action was amazing week in week out you would be able to turn a blind eye to riders having two teams.

My point being doubling up isn't totally to blame for the current state of British speedway it's the sub standard product. Especially when we all have access to seeing SGP's, SEC, SWC, Polish League etc etc. It's like watching an M&S advert then going to Poundland expecting to buy a meal deal but coming away with turkey twizzlers, having paid the M&S price. The fact that when you open your turkey twizzlers some of them have been replaced by chicken dinosaurs just adds insult to injury.

The Premiership doesn't race on Tuesdays or Sundays, so in that respect it's already making as many concessions as Poland and Sweden, except that they are gradually moving the goalposts, so who is to say that they wont hijack whatever fixed race night is imposed? Your mention of a "weak argument" isn't weak at all, to those who support it.

[The White Knight]

But those Leszno riders don't ride exclusively for Leszno. Importantly, they don't ride for another Polish team (U21's aside) but some will ride for a Swedish team.

But they are always available for Leszno fixtures and the fans don't turn up wondering if they're seeing a full team or a select team and that's the problem we have here. We all accept injuries are part and parcel of speedway but to watch your team without a rider because he's riding for someone else is unacceptable. Probably why the polish authorities are clamping down on this.

All I suggest is that we should accept being able to see teams represented by their regular team members in the majority of fixtures and we shouldn't let what those riders do in their own time be of any concern. Even if that is riding for another team in a different league, even in the same country. It's not ideal but it's just a concept to get your head around. If they ride in all of my teams fixtures they're part of my team. What they do outside of that isn't my concern. Try it.

Fixed race nights for the top league would enable this but I think there also needs to be a distinction between the standards. The promotion relegation concept is a joke. The gap between the leagues should be wider. That can only happen if the top riders are lured back. Fixed race nights, less fixtures and better tracks will help but is it affordable???

I suggest the Polish experience is so much better (having not been to a Polish fixture) because the on track product is far superior and that's what British speedway needs to focus on, whilst accepting that we're not as fortunate as the Polish in this respect.

I guess the notion of team loyalty works both ways. We've all wanted an under performing rider dropped and replaced. It's harsh but also part of the fun. Where's your team loyalty then?

If you said I won't support a team that is made up of different guests and R/R week in week out, I'd fully support you.

But to say I won't support a team because some of that team ride for someone else is a fairly weak argument given the circumstances.

I suggest that if the on track action was amazing week in week out you would be able to turn a blind eye to riders having two teams.

My point being doubling up isn't totally to blame for the current state of British speedway it's the sub standard product. Especially when we all have access to seeing SGP's, SEC, SWC, Polish League etc etc. It's like watching an M&S advert then going to Poundland expecting to buy a meal deal but coming away with turkey twizzlers, having paid the M&S price. The fact that when you open your turkey twizzlers some of them have been replaced by chicken dinosaurs just adds insult to injury.

I'm sorry but I totally disagree with that. It isn't a weak argument at all. You go along to watch your Team riding and are confronted by a bunch of Riders who have nothing to do with your Club as has just happened this week.

 

What is the point of that?

[enotian]

I'm sorry but I totally disagree with that. It isn't a weak argument at all. You go along to watch your Team riding and are confronted by a bunch of Riders who have nothing to do with your Club as has just happened this week.

 

What is the point of that?

You misunderstand.

Check the sentence before the highlighted one.

I agree a team made up of guests is not a team. It's a disgrace.

But if all seven of your regular team turn up that's your team isn't it? So what if sometime someplace else they ride for another team. None of your business what people do in their own time.

I have a permanent job and my customers don't complain when I freelance elsewhere in my own time. As long as I give them 100% they're happy.

It's simple. If you hire a builder and they don't finish your job and go of to work on another job you can complain. But if they finish your job you've no right to complain when they go on to their next job. Guys (or Lady) got to make a living.

The trouble with doubling up at present is it like the builder going to the next job before he's finished yours.

Look, we'd all prefer there to be no doubling up (it's naff) but if we have to have it (so riders can make a living without asking the paying customer for more) then lets do it right and eliminate these fixture clashes so your riders are always available.

If you always got to see your seven rider team it's just lame to say it's not my team because they ride for someone else also. Unless you're prepared to pay extra for the privilege of exclusivity?

[Trees]

count me out then and many others cause I want team speedway with teams not the select sides made up of other teams , it's a joke and quite frankly an embarrassment to a once sensible sport

Put the money up to pay them double then! Oh yes and persuade the Championship bosses to cut the strength of their teams big time...

[tyler42]

Put the money up to pay them double then! Oh yes and persuade the Championship bosses to cut the strength of their teams big time...

Why pay them double? In the 80s Most riders who rode in the second tier fitted a job around their speedway. I know they did more meetings back then. Approx 10 more in league racing, But Why should today's riders have two teams? There is not enough people coming through the turnstiles to support them with their 2-3 bikes big flash vans and mechanics.

Before anyone says " oh but it is a lot more professional these days" Rubbish. Most of the time they are riding in front of a few hundred people. At least back in the day crowds were a lot bigger, so promoters could afford the costs a little better.

 

Of course progression is good and its nice to have everything that glitters, but if there is no money then you have to cut you're cloth Accordingly.

 

I'm of an age of when my weekly trip to plough lane was going to see my idols, not a team made up of guests. The team was the same week in week out. I can't remember turning up and being told Trevor Hedge or Slim Jim Tebby were not riding tonight as they were riding for Romford in the 2nd division. So we were using two riders from the Hackney instead!

 

The BSPA have been trying to get both leagues the same in standard over the last couple of years. Surely then the most sensible thing to is amalgamate both leagues.

Then that would stop the doubling up "not including the National league boys" and then maybe you will see the same seven riders each week riding for you're team.

[Trees]

Why pay them double? In the 80s Most riders who rode in the second tier fitted a job around their speedway. I know they did more meetings back then. Approx 10 more in league racing, But Why should today's riders have two teams? There is not enough people coming through the turnstiles to support them with their 2-3 bikes big flash vans and mechanics.

Before anyone says " oh but it is a lot more professional these days" Rubbish. Most of the time they are riding in front of a few hundred people. At least back in the day crowds were a lot bigger, so promoters could afford the costs a little better.

 

Of course progression is good and its nice to have everything that glitters, but if there is no money then you have to cut you're cloth Accordingly.

 

I'm of an age of when my weekly trip to plough lane was going to see my idols, not a team made up of guests. The team was the same week in week out. I can't remember turning up and being told Trevor Hedge or Slim Jim Tebby were not riding tonight as they were riding for Romford in the 2nd division. So we were using two riders from the Hackney instead!

 

The BSPA have been trying to get both leagues the same in standard over the last couple of years. Surely then the most sensible thing to is amalgamate both leagues.

Then that would stop the doubling up "not including the National league boys" and then maybe you will see the same seven riders each week riding for you're team.

Until all the injuries start then you are buggered, what then? Most teams retain a number of riders from year to year, we kept 6 riders from 2016 this year....

[foamfence]

Put the money up to pay them double then! Oh yes and persuade the Championship bosses to cut the strength of their teams big time...

You don't have to pay them double, they accept the terms or they don't, there are already some riders who work and some who keep going with one league.

[Trees]

You don't have to pay them double, they accept the terms or they don't, there are already some riders who work and some who keep going with one league.

That's why they do the two leagues, yeah I guess the promoters hold all the cards.

[The White Knight]

That's why they do the two leagues, yeah I guess the promoters hold all the cards.

Certainly not the poor benighted Supporters don't.

 

The only card they have to play is whether to go or not. :sad:

 

It is a pretty good card though - I play it myself. :sad:

[Hacksaw Jim Duggan]

it would make them thing twice about overseas signings who think of this country as nothing more than a stepping stone.

 

 

That already happens at the majority of tracks in the top division - the big nasty foreign riders stopped being an issue and the proposed bogeyman many portray them as re the wrongs of British Speedway years ago now outwith the odd exception (Holder) an issue not overly different to that caused by the current British Champion post Cardiff re questionable attendance at meetings.

 

As a general rule most additions from the continent are made when sides are desperate ( Przedpelsk) or, it is riders who are loyal to this country and the tracks they ride for - Lindgren, Thorsell, Andersen, Doyle - riders that it would be foolish to freeze out as doing so would only further isolate fans and drive people away.

 

There has clearly been a conscious decision to freeze out foreign riders - hence why the top flight is now packed with predominantly local based talent – it hasn’t made the slightest bit of difference to attendances to be fair….if anything it has gotten worse and increased the need for doubling up.....an irony clearly lost on some - more so given the removal of the rule would then increase the need for foreign talent again to fill team spaces rather than reduce the numbers required.

Edited August 29, 2017 by Hacksaw Jim Duggan

[foamfence]

 

 

That already happens at the majority of tracks in the top division - the big nasty foreign riders stopped being an issue and the proposed bogeyman many portray them as re the wrongs of British Speedway years ago now outwith the odd exception (Holder) an issue not overly different to that caused by the current British Champion post Cardiff re questionable attendance at meetings.

 

As a general rule most additions from the continent are made when sides are desperate ( Przedpelsk) or, it is riders who are loyal to this country and the tracks they ride for - Lindgren, Thorsell, Andersen, Doyle - riders that it would be foolish to freeze out as doing so would only further isolate fans and drive people away.

 

There has clearly been a conscious decision to freeze out foreign riders - hence why the top flight is now packed with predominantly local based talent – it hasn’t made the slightest bit of difference to attendances to be fair….if anything it has gotten worse and increased the need for doubling up.....an irony clearly lost on some - more so given the removal of the rule would then increase the need for foreign talent again to fill team spaces rather than reduce the numbers required.

Nothing wrong with 'foreign talent' as long as it is available for the majority of fixtures, if it cuts down doubling-up- fine, if it increases the need for guests- not fine. It is greatly frustrating to fans when they buy a season ticket and discover that their promoter knew from the start that his foreign signing was going to miss x number of fixtures. A league full of lower grade but more available riders would be preferable to some.