Time To Scrap Doubling Up?

[mikebv]

Constanly missing riders through DU and the resultant non stop stream of Guestfests after Guestfests can never hope to engage a fan base to follow 'their team'..

 

And any team sport that doesn't deliver that so important 'emotional attachment' will never give itself a chance to be a successful enterprise..

 

"Guests have been around for years" is the often used mantra, however domestic Speedway wasn't nationally beamed into homes regularly then and fans got their Speedway fix on TV by watching major individual or FIM events. In short, you turned up at a track and only then you found that Guest riders replaced some of your favourites,

 

In todays instant media world you simply cannot get away with such nonsense and expect fans to follow you...

Edited August 17, 2017 by mikebv

[Gresham]

I really don't think DU is going to go away.

 

There aren't enough riders who want to commit to riding in Britain.

 

I should also imagine the riders wouldn't make enough financially ( to what they expect ) to ride just for one team.

 

They see the money being earned in Poland, that dangling golden carrot, and want to ride their as well.

 

If you amalgamated the leagues, and stopped DU, you would have a few riders riding here as well as Poland, Sweden etc.

You would also have a good majority, that wouldn't have team places abroad. Hence having very limited riding time and earning potential.

 

The have's and have not's void would become even wider.

 

The costs for maintaining engines, is the same for all riders, so again the 'level playing field' would also widen.

 

It really is a catch 22...riders want to make a decent living, to cover costs, so DU enables this, yet fans detest it and it will effect crowds, which in turn effect money coming into the sport.

 

It has become a ridiculous situation.

 

Riders want more rides, to make more money, and have ever increasing running costs. Spiralling North.

 

Fans want no DU, teams that they recognise and more fixtures.

 

Less riders are starting out, as has been posted by others, not just here, but abroad as well.

 

Less Riders, Less Clubs, Less money, Less fans.

 

There is only one way this sport is going in this country and it's staring everyone in the face, yet no one knows what to do to stop the rot.

[foamfence]

I really don't think DU is going to go away.

 

There aren't enough riders who want to commit to riding in Britain.

 

I should also imagine the riders wouldn't make enough financially ( to what they expect ) to ride just for one team.

 

They see the money being earned in Poland, that dangling golden carrot, and want to ride their as well.

 

If you amalgamated the leagues, and stopped DU, you would have a few riders riding here as well as Poland, Sweden etc.

You would also have a good majority, that wouldn't have team places abroad. Hence having very limited riding time and earning potential.

 

The have's and have not's void would become even wider.

 

The costs for maintaining engines, is the same for all riders, so again the 'level playing field' would also widen.

 

It really is a catch 22...riders want to make a decent living, to cover costs, so DU enables this, yet fans detest it and it will effect crowds, which in turn effect money coming into the sport.

 

It has become a ridiculous situation.

 

Riders want more rides, to make more money, and have ever increasing running costs. Spiralling North.

 

Fans want no DU, teams that they recognise and more fixtures.

 

Less riders are starting out, as has been posted by others, not just here, but abroad as well.

 

Less Riders, Less Clubs, Less money, Less fans.

 

There is only one way this sport is going in this country and it's staring everyone in the face, yet no one knows what to do to stop the rot.

If the clubs go bankrupt the riders will be out of work anyway. The current system of doubling-up and guests (four at Swindon tonight!) has robbed the sport of what little credibility it had. The idea of running the sport to suit the riders isn't working, the sport has to be run to suit the fans and they want their own settled teams and less guests.

Weaken the middle tier to 50% top league then more conference riders will have to step up to fill those gaps. Make the conference league an armature league. Allow double ups but with the understanding the higher league will always have priority. That will then make it less attractive to start he season with a high profile rider for the middle tier. And he more professional league will never be compromised .

 

The problem is the middle tier is too strong. And the third tier has teams who should really be in a higher league.

 

It used to be the top middle tier ridersmay make a good top league reserve. The 2leagues should have weakened and strengthened as a unit. Instead we now have too many middle tier riders at a top league standard.

"Conference" and "Armature"? Actually your point about the "middle tier" is correct, why not just have one big league and be done with it?

[Gresham]

If the clubs go bankrupt the riders will be out of work anyway. The current system of doubling-up and guests (four at Swindon tonight!) has robbed the sport of what little credibility it had. The idea of running the sport to suit the riders isn't working, the sport has to be run to suit the fans and they want their own settled teams and less guests.

 

I agree...and so it has become a catch 22.

 

Riders won't want to change...fans want change.

 

For me, the only way it could change, is to make one big league and stop doubling up. That will dilute the 'quality' that some fans have issues with...not me, as I think we need to take a step back to take two forward.

 

Club speedway is what is important in this country. It's getting less each season. Clubs closing etc.

 

What riders are going to ride for one Club in this country and have a second job? Not many, when they see the spoils of 'Professional International Speedway Rider' on the continent.

[foamfence]

I agree...and so it has become a catch 22.

 

Riders won't want to change...fans want change.

 

For me, the only way it could change, is to make one big league and stop doubling up. That will dilute the 'quality' that some fans have issues with...not me, as I think we need to take a step back to take two forward.

 

Club speedway is what is important in this country. It's getting less each season. Clubs closing etc.

 

What riders are going to ride for one Club in this country and have a second job? Not many, when they see the spoils of 'Professional International Speedway Rider' on the continent.

Agreed! I think if you put a new framework in place, the riders might grumble but I doubt many would actually quit.

[Hacksaw Jim Duggan]

Weaken the middle tier to 50% top league then more conference riders will have to step up to fill those gaps. Make the conference league an armature league. Allow double ups but with the understanding the higher league will always have priority. That will then make it less attractive to start he season with a high profile rider for the middle tier. And he more professional league will never be compromised .

 

The problem is the middle tier is too strong. And the third tier has teams who should really be in a higher league.

 

It used to be the top middle tier ridersmay make a good top league reserve. The 2leagues should have weakened and strengthened as a unit. Instead we now have too many middle tier riders at a top league standard.

 

A further weakening of the Championship will turn it into the Conference League, if the league is turned into the Conference League it shouldn’t then be a shock if it attracts Conference League crowds – while there are exceptions to the rule most Conference League crowds are lower than those in the Championship, it is why clubs are generally in the Conference League.

 

The continual wish to weaken the standard isn’t healthy it is consciously driving fans away simply by it's definition - it is weaker than it was. It has actively been going on for 3 years now and hasn’t seen an increase in attendances – it is time to stop making the thing worse in the hope more people will come, that is clearly not working - in your own post you are actively saying the league should be made less attractive for sides to sign better riders, that in turn makes the product less attractive to fans.

 

The notion that anyone and new fans might turn up at a meeting and won’t know who the riders are is great, but the people who currently do attend DO know who the riders are and many wouldn’t accept it and would become even more selective than they are now – that’s not a smart or logical business strategy for clubs to implement - the sport would be best trying to pander to and retain fans who still got to the effort of attending and building on them as they have al loyalty to the sport and fund it. A weakening of the product yet again is just a further slap in the face and would likely see further loss of funds and fans rather than people coming back in numbers, even those fans who have walked away...because the reason for their non-return would likely now be....well it is weaker now than it was when I used to go...

Edited August 17, 2017 by Hacksaw Jim Duggan

[Sotonian]

I don't know how many riders are licensed to ride in the UK but it's obvious that there are not enough.

 

The first thing I'd do is not allow the likes of Belle Vue and King's Lynn to run National League teams... why on earth should they be running 2 teams when they don't have enough riders for 1! There's 14 riders freed up straight away (assuming they only rider for 1 NL club) I'd also place some sort of cap on who can ride in an NL team, allow 1 "experienced" rider (based on number of official matches ridden) as a coach but the rest have to be inexperienced, no more than say 100 matches unless they continue to ride for the same team

 

There are too many riders in the NL, who to be brutally honest, are never going to make it beyond the level they are currently at and ride as a hobby, these riders should not stand in the way of riders with genuine talent and ambition. It may mean an initial period of rider and pay control.

 

This is completely at odds with the oft-mooted move to a fixed race night though. Without the option to run NL matches what else would fill the void on away match weeks? Individual events and challenges are no longer attractive and/or cost-effective.

[Gresham]

 

A further weakening of the Championship will turn it into the Conference League, if the league is turned into the Conference League it shouldn’t then be a shock if it attracts Conference League crowds – while there are exceptions to the rule most Conference League crowds are lower than those in the Championship, it is why clubs are generally in the Conference League.

 

The continual wish to weaken the standard isn’t healthy it is consciously driving fans away simply by it's definition - it is weaker than it was. It has actively been going on for 3 years now and hasn’t seen an increase in attendances – it is time to stop making the thing worse in the hope more people will come, that is clearly not working - in your own post you are actively saying the league should be made less attractive for sides to sign better riders, that in turn makes the product less attractive to fans.

 

The notion that anyone and new fans might turn up at a meeting and won’t know who the riders are is great, but the people who currently do attend DO know who the riders are and many wouldn’t accept it and would become even more selective than they are now – that’s not a smart or logical business strategy for clubs to implement - the sport would be best trying to pander to and retain fans who still got to the effort of attending and building on them as they have al loyalty to the sport and fund it. A weakening of the product yet again is just a further slap in the face and would likely see further loss of funds and fans rather than people coming back in numbers, even those fans who have walked away...because the reason for their non-return would likely now be....well it is weaker now than it was when I used to go...

That's a bit like saying, I want to drive a Ferrari, but can't afford it....and can only afford to drive a Ford Fiesta, but won't buy one, as it's not good enough in your opinion...so instead you'll walk. Cutting your nose off to spite your face.

 

Speedway in this Country can't afford what you want.

[IainB]

 

This is completely at odds with the oft-mooted move to a fixed race night though. Without the option to run NL matches what else would fill the void on away match weeks? Individual events and challenges are no longer attractive and/or cost-effective.

Surely clubs have to look at the bigger picture, why are they running 2 teams when they don't have enough riders for 1?

[Hacksaw Jim Duggan]

That's a bit like saying, I want to drive a Ferrari, but can't afford it....and can only afford to drive a Ford Fiesta, but won't buy one, as it's not good enough in your opinion...so instead you'll walk. Cutting your nose off to spite your face.

 

Speedway in this Country can't afford what you want.

 

 

No – it is nothing like that.

 

I wish for a retention of standards comparable to the standard they are currently at, that is as low as the base can get in which to build from, that seems viable short term – what speedway cannot afford is to continue to drive fans who do attend away - that is the one thing that has continued while the standard has gotten lower, and lower and lower - the lowering of standards is the constant in the crowds decreasing

 

It seems more logical to look at alterations and adjustments to the current rules around double up riders rather than a simply widespread reduction in quality of the product, yet again.

 

This notion that things will be ok once sides are National League standard is a complete fallacy – that isn’t going to increase gates, bring people back or attract new fans, it will achieve nothing - it is a moon howling exercise that might delude some but most will simply walk away from the sport knowing they are being served up substandard dross compared to what they viably could be offered with minor rule alterations, and thus the next season the same moon howlers would follow the same process "drop the standard 50 % again, that will fix it".

Edited August 17, 2017 by Hacksaw Jim Duggan

[Gresham]

 

 

No – it is nothing like that.

 

I wish for a retention of standards comparable to the standard they are currently at, that is as low as the base can get in which to build from, that seems viable short term – what speedway cannot afford is to continue to drive fans who do attend away which is the one thing that has continued while the standard has gotten lower, and lower and lower - the lowering of standards is the constant in the crowds decreasing

 

It seems more logical to look at alterations and adjustments to the current rules around double up riders rather than a simply widespread reduction in quality of the product, yet again.

 

This notion that things will be ok once sides are National League standard is a complete fallacy – that isn’t going to increase gates, bring people back or attract new fans, it will achieve nothing - it is a moon howling exercise that might delude some but most will simply walk away from the sport knowing they are being served up substandard dross compared to what they viably could be offered with minor rule alterations, and thus the next season the same moon howlers would follow the same process "drop the standard 50 % again, that will fix it".

Your idea sounds ideal in a perfect world...but why do you think there is doubling up?

 

There aren't enough riders in Britain willing to ride in the current situation.

 

How do you intend to attract more riders, when there isn't the money or enough rides for just one team?

 

How do you intend to attract 'quality' as you put it, from foreign shores, when there isn't the money?

 

'Quality' as you put it, at the standard you wish, is down to machinery. Which in essence is down to running costs...ie money.

 

If you stop doubling up...you'll have a cream of riders riding for teams here and abroad...but the great majority riding for one club here, kicking there heels making no money, unless they have a second job, yet they still have to compete financially to maintain there bikes at a competitive level.

 

How is that going to work? The gap between the have's and have not's will become even greater.

 

Answer...

 

One big league, riders who will commit to one club in Britain. Not allowed to ride for Continental Club if it has priority over British meetings. Cheaper running costs, with Standardised engines. Which will attract new riders. Cost is a major issue as to why people don't take the sport up and why less riders appear every year. Two nights a week fixtures.

 

If it means watching the 'quality' as you put it, of the likes of Charles Wright, Paul Starke, BWD etc and they have two jobs, then so be it.

 

We just don't have the money in this country to compete with the Continent.

 

Before you know it, in the blink of an eye...we'll end up like the US and Oz...with very few tracks and riders just riding abroad or a few select individual meetings here.

[MattK]

One big league, riders who will commit to one club in Britain. Not allowed to ride for Continental Club if it has priority over British meetings. Cheaper running costs, with Standardised engines. Which will attract new riders. Cost is a major issue as to why people don't take the sport up and why less riders appear every year. Two nights a week fixtures.

 

If it means watching the 'quality' as you put it, of the likes of Charles Wright, Paul Starke, BWD etc and they have two jobs, then so be it.

 

We just don't have the money in this country to compete with the Continent.

 

Before you know it, in the blink of an eye...we'll end up like the US and Oz...with very few tracks and riders just riding abroad or a few select individual meetings here.

 

Isn't half the reason we have doubling-up in order to allow riders to commit to British speedway by offering them enough meetings to make a living?

 

If you remove doubling-up, by having one big league, you are effectively halving the number of meetings and therefore making rider MORE dependent on racing in foreign leagues?

[IainB]

 

Isn't half the reason we have doubling-up in order to allow riders to commit to British speedway by offering them enough meetings to make a living?

 

If you remove doubling-up, by having one big league, you are effectively halving the number of meetings and therefore making rider MORE dependent on racing in foreign leagues?

But by allowing DU aren't you effectively halving the number of available team spaces? And don't some riders TU (triple up)?

[MattK]

But by allowing DU aren't you effectively halving the number of available team spaces? And don't some riders TU (triple up)?

 

Yes, but there aren't dozens of riders sat on the sidelines unable to ride due to lack of available spaces.

[Hacksaw Jim Duggan]

Your idea sounds ideal in a perfect world...but why do you think there is doubling up?

 

There aren't enough riders in Britain willing to ride in the current situation.

 

How do you intend to attract more riders, when there isn't the money or enough rides for just one team?

 

How do you intend to attract 'quality' as you put it, from foreign shores, when there isn't the money?

 

'Quality' as you put it, at the standard you wish, is down to machinery. Which in essence is down to running costs...ie money.

 

If you stop doubling up...you'll have a cream of riders riding for teams here and abroad...but the great majority riding for one club here, kicking there heels making no money, unless they have a second job, yet they still have to compete financially to maintain there bikes at a competitive level.

 

How is that going to work? The gap between the have's and have not's will become even greater.

 

Answer...

 

One big league, riders who will commit to one club in Britain. Not allowed to ride for Continental Club if it has priority over British meetings. Cheaper running costs, with Standardised engines. Which will attract new riders. Cost is a major issue as to why people don't take the sport up and why less riders appear every year. Two nights a week fixtures.

 

If it means watching the 'quality' as you put it, of the likes of Charles Wright, Paul Starke, BWD etc and they have two jobs, then so be it.

 

We just don't have the money in this country to compete with the Continent.

 

Before you know it, in the blink of an eye...we'll end up like the US and Oz...with very few tracks and riders just riding abroad or a few select individual meetings here.

 

 

No – the situation I position is far from being perfect it is idiocy of anyone to assume the exact words they post are the ideal solution to this situation, it isn’t an ideal situation - Chapman himself has said that and is aware of it, anyone discussing the current structure, rules, regulations and rider shortage are also aware of it hence they don’t position what they say as being perfect - it is for the time being a workaround, any proposal would be that.

 

The question you pose ARE the exact reason why there is doubling up yes - hence I would see the situation remain as it is with minor alteration as there isn’t going to be the widespread of riders who wish to race here who will resolve the issue – I said I would prefer a retention of the current standard. I haven’t once mentioned riders coming from abroad, I accept an increase in quality at this time isn’t likely.

 

The minor changes would be in relation to where guests and replacements could be pulled from e.g sides chasing Play Off Places in the Premiership having to use replacements from the Championship if need be rather than riders from other teams in their league competing for the same place - a tightening of who could be used in such instances would help IMO.

 

I don’t think the “quality” I reference is in anyway machinery related, the current standard of rider is the quality fans will look for e:g a Newcastle fans will wish to see a rider the quality of Robert Lambert race for them, not his removal from their side and his place taken by a rider the quality of Shelby Rutherford. Or riders the quality of Starke, Wright etc being taken from the Championship, fans of that league wouldn’t even be getting that in the proposed league of 50% reduction in quality I quoted earlier – I was addressing that post, that is what I see an issue - continually stripping back the standard of rider on show and expecting crowd numbers to even remain the same, that evidently is not working - people are not going to swallow rubbish which would be the case if the standard of rider on show continues to decrease.

 

The one big league you reference isn’t viable – there isn’t the numbers for that and if riders had such restrictions placed on them, and their earnings as those you wish to impose they would tell promotions in this country to run and jump or wish for a higher cost in order to compensate for potential loss of earnings all the while the issue would be the promotions would still require those riders to fill their team.

 

 

I am not talking about the continent, paying excessive wages to the top stars in the world etc and so on – those days are clearly not viable, nor is it viable to simply put on a show of utter dross and expect fans to pay for it – there has to be some sort of standard on show in order to attract fans AND IN THE POST I QUOTED that isn’t what is being offered forward as a proposal - some of the points you have raised, made points and counter points to are clearly what you feel and think but they are totally moot to me and the post I have chosen to engage with....

Edited August 17, 2017 by Hacksaw Jim Duggan

[IainB]

 

Yes, but there aren't dozens of riders sat on the sidelines unable to ride due to lack of available spaces.

And why is that I wonder? Maybe because a lot of riders are denying opportunities to others by doubling up? It does seem a bit catch 22

[MattK]

And why is that I wonder? Maybe because a lot of riders are denying opportunities to others by doubling up? It does seem a bit catch 22

 

When doubling-up was limited we had a lot more journeyman foreign riders. I remember plenty of riders at Swindon who rode for a season or less, David Lampart, Krzysztof Stojanowski, Sergey Darkin, Manuel Hauzinger and I'm sure more I've forgotten.

[Gresham]

 

 

No – the situation I position is far from being perfect it is idiocy of anyone to assume the exact words they post are the ideal solution to this situation, it isn’t an ideal situation - Chapman himself has said that and is aware of it, anyone discussing the current structure, rules, regulations and rider shortage are also aware of it hence they don’t position what they say as being perfect - it is for the time being a workaround, any proposal would be that.

 

The question you pose ARE the exact reason why there is doubling up yes - hence I would see the situation remain as it is with minor alteration as there isn’t going to be the widespread of riders who wish to race here who will resolve the issue – I said I would prefer a retention of the current standard. I haven’t once mentioned riders coming from abroad, I accept an increase in quality at this time isn’t likely.

 

The minor changes would be in relation to where guests and replacements could be pulled from e.g sides chasing Play Off Places in the Premiership having to use replacements from the Championship if need be rather than riders from other teams in their league competing for the same place - a tightening of who could be used in such instances would help IMO.

 

I don’t think the “quality” I reference is in anyway machinery related, the current standard of rider is the quality fans will look for e:g a Newcastle fans will wish to see a rider the quality of Robert Lambert race for them, not his removal from their side and his place taken by a rider the quality of Shelby Rutherford. Or riders the quality of Starke, Wright etc being taken from the Championship, fans of that league wouldn’t even be getting that in the proposed league of 50% reduction in quality I quoted earlier – I was addressing that post, that is what I see an issue - continually stripping back the standard of rider on show and expecting crowd numbers to even remain the same, that evidently is not working - people are not going to swallow rubbish which would be the case if the standard of rider on show continues to decrease.

 

The one big league you reference isn’t viable – there isn’t the numbers for that and if riders had such restrictions placed on them, and their earnings as those you wish to impose they would tell promotions in this country to run and jump or wish for a higher cost in order to compensate for potential loss of earnings all the while the issue would be the promotions would still require those riders to fill their team.

 

 

I am not talking about the continent, paying excessive wages to the top stars in the world etc and so on – those days are clearly not viable, nor is it viable to simply put on a show of utter dross and expect fans to pay for it – there has to be some sort of standard on show in order to attract fans AND IN THE POST I QUOTED that isn’t what is being offered forward as a proposal - some of the points you have raised, made points and counter points to are clearly what you feel and think but they are totally moot to me and the post I have chosen to engage with....

I really am struggling to understand a lot of that.

 

Your point of I quote... 'The minor changes would be in relation to where guests and replacements could be pulled from e.g sides chasing Play Off Places in the Premiership having to use replacements from the Championship if need be rather than riders from other teams in their league competing for the same place - a tightening of who could be used in such instances would help IMO.'

 

How does that work?...a great majority of riders in the Prem are riding in the Championship ( doubling up )...so how do you propose to take riders from the Championship and place them in the Prem as a guest? That's what's happening already. You'd be left with a very small pool of riders to choose from, who aren't already doubling up. The majority of them, the lower end of the Championship level.

[Hacksaw Jim Duggan]

I really am struggling to understand a lot of that.

 

Your point of I quote... 'The minor changes would be in relation to where guests and replacements could be pulled from e.g sides chasing Play Off Places in the Premiership having to use replacements from the Championship if need be rather than riders from other teams in their league competing for the same place - a tightening of who could be used in such instances would help IMO.'

 

How does that work?...a great majority of riders in the Prem are riding in the Championship ( doubling up )...so how do you propose to take riders from the Championship and place them in the Prem as a guest? That's what's happening already. You'd be left with a very small pool of riders to choose from, who aren't already doubling up. The majority of them, the lower end of the Championship level.

 

Yes, that’s correct….it wasn’t the struggle you thought it was, you should give yourself more credit.

[frigbo]

 

When doubling-up was limited we had a lot more journeyman foreign riders. I remember plenty of riders at Swindon who rode for a season or less, David Lampart, Krzysztof Stojanowski, Sergey Darkin, Manuel Hauzinger and I'm sure more I've forgotten.

None of those doubled uo and were Swindon riders for the period they were in our team.

 

The old shared position for doubling up was vaguely sensible in comparison to the utter farce that prevails now.

 

I'm frankly shocked that there is a section of people on here who actually support what is virtually two leagues of the same riders mixed up and given different team names. No wonder the league gap has closed - they're almost the same blokes competing in both!

Edited August 17, 2017 by frigbo