Time To Scrap Doubling Up?

[TheReturn]

I don't agree. Fans don't care that a rider races for two clubs.

I would..... I wanted to know the rider was 'ours' and committed to my club and team. In the old days doubling up was not for every meeting, Perks main commitment would be Long Eaton and then he would do the odd doubling up for Cradley. It was never doubted that he Long Eaton committed first and foremost. (well at least it felt that way, I hope that was the case).

 

These days I am not sure I would know if a rider who rode for a different club most nights was really bothered about my team or if this was just another earning opportunity for them. If I had a club, I know to some extent it's an earning opportunity, but I would want to feel that those 7 riders were committed to my club and team and that was their number one speedway priority.

Edited August 15, 2017 by TheReturn

[MattK]

Well the doubling up system is stopping me going to Swindon on Thursday.

 

Sorry...I'm not going to pay my hard earned, to watch Poole rider Paul Starke ride against Somerset for Leicester last night, then ride for Poole Wednesday night against Wolves, then ride for Somerset against Swindon on Thursday.

 

With 4th place up for grabs, this makes a whole mockery of the sport.

 

I'm sure other fans will feel the same way.

 

Paul Starke is riding in place of Jake Allen, who is injured.

[Gresham]

 

Paul Starke is riding in place of Jake Allen, who is injured.

I know...but in the space of a week, he's riding for three teams, all competing for the same points in a league made up of only 8 teams. It's madness imo, and shouldn't be allowed.

 

How can you have a rider who's side is in 4th place, riding for a team who's trying to take that 4th place from you?

 

Easy to pay off, so as not to score as well.

 

It's a joke.

[t1tmt]

I have not posted on this forum for such a long time, but finding this thread has just brought me back.

 

Surely the point of Doubling Up is to help develop riders so......

1. There need to be a 'qualifying' criteria for a rider to be able to double up - it really should not be a free for all.
2. Double up yes, double down no. Why is it right for a rider at the upper tier of the sport, step down for a few easy paydays, what does this do for the future of the sport, and the riders who are looking to progress? If that upper tier rider thinks they should be in the championship, then move down completely.
3. A double up space in a team should be shared by two (or more) lower league riders, The team should consider unavailability when selecting these riders so that the majority of meetings are covered by these riders and not be necessary to bring in additional cover every week.

I would find it a joke, to be honest, to find a rider declared in a team and pretty much never see them in my team's race jacket. The Jack Holder situation at Peterborough could have been avoided had something like my third point been in place. Doubling up is a gamble because there will always be clashes, this is why sharing the team spot would be far more engaging for the fans as it would be their riders on track rather than whoever was available on the day.

 

Thoughts?

[keef robin]

Regardless of doubling up and weaker league have seen some great racing and unpredictable results, and I've been watching on and off since 1963.

This is one of the best seasons racing since then for me. Still love attending to watch four blokes tearing around a track.

[iris123]

Well the doubling up system is stopping me going to Swindon on Thursday.

 

Sorry...I'm not going to pay my hard earned, to watch Poole rider Paul Starke ride against Somerset for Leicester last night, then ride for Poole Wednesday night against Wolves, then ride for Somerset against Swindon on Thursday.

 

With 4th place up for grabs, this makes a whole mockery of the sport.

 

I'm sure other fans will feel the same way.

But that is nothing to do with doubling up!!!

 

You are talking about guests and we have had them even back in the good old days of the 70s,just as we had doubling up.I think there was at least one case of a rider who's team was going for the title riding as a guest for their rivals back in the 70s.Was Ivan Mauger i think one?

[TheReturn]

I know...but in the space of a week, he's riding for three teams, all competing for the same points in a league made up of only 8 teams. It's madness imo, and shouldn't be allowed.

I do wonder how much credibility this gives us to the casual BT Sport viewer when the presenters talk about this, and how a rider is riding for XYZ clubs during the next few days.

[Grachan]

But that is nothing to do with doubling up!!!

 

You are talking about guests and we have had them even back in the good old days of the 70s,just as we had doubling up.I think there was at least one case of a rider who's team was going for the title riding as a guest for their rivals back in the 70s.Was Ivan Mauger i think one?

 

One of the first meetings I attended was a double header at Swindon in 1974, with Swindon taking on Hackney first and then Belle Vue.

 

Guesting at no 1 for Hackney was... Bob Kilby.

 

Guesting at no 1 for Belle Vue was... Bob Kilby.

 

Biggest crowd I ever saw at Swindon. Could barely move.

Edited August 15, 2017 by grachan

[iris123]

 

One of the first meetings I attended was a double header at Swindon in 1974, with Swindon taking on Hackney first and then Belle Vue.

 

Guesting at no 1 for Hackney was... Bob Kilby.

 

Guesting at no 1 for Belle Vue was... Bob Kilby.

 

Biggest crowd I ever saw at Swindon. Could barely move.

That is quite funny.Bet most of the crowd left shaking their heads in disbelief...........

[THE DEAN MACHINE]

 

One of the first meetings I attended was a double header at Swindon in 1974, with Swindon taking on Hackney first and then Belle Vue.

 

Guesting at no 1 for Hackney was... Bob Kilby.

 

Guesting at no 1 for Belle Vue was... Bob Kilby.

 

Biggest crowd I ever saw at Swindon. Could barely move.

while guest are a neccerary evil for covering injury although there has got to be a better way doubling up is an evil that is neither wanted or needed , there is enough riders who would commit to ride here there is no excuse

[HertsRacer]

Regardless of doubling up and weaker league have seen some great racing and unpredictable results, and I've been watching on and off since 1963.

This is one of the best seasons racing since then for me. Still love attending to watch four blokes tearing around a track.

 

Edited August 15, 2017 by HertsRacer

[iris123]

while guest are a neccerary evil for covering injury although there has got to be a better way doubling up is an evil that is neither wanted or needed , there is enough riders who would commit to ride here there is no excuse

I am not sure your statement is correct.The number of riders around Europe has dropped alarmingly.

 

Doesn't Sweden have doubling up?As f-s-p stated before Sweden didn't want to know about finnish riders,but due to lack of home grown riders they became quite keen.The number of young Danish riders taking up the sport has about halved in just a few years.Even now in the past couple of years in the Bundesliga the allow German riders to guest for other teams.I'd imagine the amount of British riders has also dramatically fallen from the 80s and yet someone mentioned we still have roughly the same amount of teams.So how will the places get filled without doubling up?And as i have already pointed out,even back in the 70s when we had lots more homegrown riders we still had guys like Bob Coles who rode in both leagues,i guess to make it pay,but i am sure was a welcome sight at tracks

 

Someone even mentioned that the Poles are having problems with youngsters,which is probably why they are so keen on getting riders over from other countries,which in turn gives us a problem

Edited August 15, 2017 by iris123

[tigerowl]

And last night in the Kent v Lakeside National League meeting, both teams used a guest at number one. Yet still the promoters bemoan a lack of riders.

[The Cheese]

In the 10 Championship sides I make it 32 who currently also ride in the Premiership. Just assume they all ride in the Premiership, even if you have 6 man teams then that means you still need to find 22 more to replace him in the Championship. Then you have plenty of people on another thread wanting to kick out all the Australians so that's another 8 from the Championship gone and 4 needing replacing in the Premiership. You can't just promote NL riders because then people complain that the standard isn't good enough. And the racing is poor because you have 2 NL riders miles adrift at the back.

[THE DEAN MACHINE]

I am not sure your statement is correct.The number of riders around Europe has dropped alarmingly.

 

Doesn't Sweden have doubling up?As f-s-p stated before Sweden didn't want to know about finnish riders,but due to lack of home grown riders they became quite keen.The number of young Danish riders taking up the sport has about halved in just a few years.Even now in the past couple of years in the Bundesliga the allow German riders to guest for other teams.I'd imagine the amount of British riders has also dramatically fallen from the 80s and yet someone mentioned we still have roughly the same amount of teams.So how will the places get filled without doubling up?And as i have already pointed out,even back in the 70s when we had lots more homegrown riders we still had guys like Bob Coles who rode in both leagues,i guess to make it pay,but i am sure was a welcome sight at tracks

 

Someone even mentioned that the Poles are having problems with youngsters,which is probably why they are so keen on getting riders over from other countries,which in turn gives us a problem

there isn't enough British riders but there is enough riders , someone on here last year did some statistics and said last season enough riders rode in the uk last season to fill all the teams for this year , I really think we should adopt the polish system, no averages top 5 any rider but every team has to include one Brit and the reserves have to be British under 21 , they can stay there until they 22 , each team signs 3or 4 reserves and the ones that don't get picked that week can double down , I know people will argue that the wealthiest team will get all the best riders but as shown with leszno last season and Torun this year paying top dollar for the best doesn't work

[paulboy]

 

But did both actually care? It's about earning a crust I expect they're bothered about. You certainly get that feeling.

Oh it's no criticism of the riders, they need to race as much as they can, does anybody really believe many care about "their" team?

[foamfence]

In the 10 Championship sides I make it 32 who currently also ride in the Premiership. Just assume they all ride in the Premiership, even if you have 6 man teams then that means you still need to find 22 more to replace him in the Championship. Then you have plenty of people on another thread wanting to kick out all the Australians so that's another 8 from the Championship gone and 4 needing replacing in the Premiership. You can't just promote NL riders because then people complain that the standard isn't good enough. And the racing is poor because you have 2 NL riders miles adrift at the back.

I don't think 'banning' Aussies is wanted or will happen, more likely a requirement to commit for a certain length of time. If you consider overseas riders who have been dropped due to the 'averages' game and those NL riders who have some experience at a higher level (like Rye bringing in Morley and Newcastle with Hopwood), then you would probably have enough riders to remove the need for doubling up.

[iris123]

there isn't enough British riders but there is enough riders , someone on here last year did some statistics and said last season enough riders rode in the uk last season to fill all the teams for this year

Didn't see the stats,but they sounds just that 'stats'.Look at how many teams spots are available and see how many riders rode.Good,but you are streched and in an ideal world.What then happens when things start to go wrong and riders get injured,riders decide they don't want to continue or would rather ride in Poland etc and the choice is getting more limited as each year passes.

We don't have enough youngsters coming through and neither does anyone else.And if we limit the amount of meetings riders can do then we have to face the fact that more and more will just stop riding because it doesn't make financial sense,especially for foreigners to come over.It is also a fact that if you have a 14 meeting season like they do in Sweden and Poland you are less susceptible to riders missing through injury.I doubt anyone in the UK wants such a short season,and the more meetings the worse the situation gets with riders missing

It isn't what i would like,but we have to face the reality that speedway is becoming less and less popular with youngsters taking the sport up,as well as fans who want to watch it

I have said we need a re-think any maybe more of a continental style calendar for some tracks hosting just a handful of meetings.

Edited August 15, 2017 by iris123

[The Cheese]

I don't think 'banning' Aussies is wanted or will happen, more likely a requirement to commit for a certain length of time. If you consider overseas riders who have been dropped due to the 'averages' game and those NL riders who have some experience at a higher level (like Rye bringing in Morley and Newcastle with Hopwood), then you would probably have enough riders to remove the need for doubling up.

 

Maybe just about enough for next season then, but when we leave the EU? Will the likes of Busk Jakobsen, L Lindgren, Ostergaard, Graversen, Jonas B Andersen, Vissing, Hansen be able to get work permits? Nobody knows yet of course but there is a fair chance they will not meet the criteria.

[Nobblytriers]

I haven't read all of the thread so apologies if someone else has suggested this but how about amalgamate the top two leagues but not with the race format we have today?

 

Something like ... 5 riders from the current teams in the premiership and championship plus 3 from the NL. The NL riders don't ride against the main body of riders but just have, say, 4 races spread throughout the meeting. These races all count towards the result. They get 2 rides each ( 1+2, 2+3, 1+3) and then the top 2 get a 3rd ride. This would give them track time, a bigger audience (which could possibly help with sponsorship), time with more experienced riders in the pits and they will be able to ride many more tracks and surfaces. Also, as they will be riding against each other there should be less races where the less abled rider is half a lap down and getting demoralised. They should also have a better chance of scoring points so they should boost their income.

The current reserve role could be taken by the 2nd strings, with a maximum of three extra rides taken between the two riders. With only five main team riders there should be enough within the current leagues to go around.

 

No doubt there will be some reasons why this idea, or similar ones, may not work. I've not thought long and hard about this, it's just an idea. Something does need to be done and maybe something like this is the answer?

 

Over to the more knowledgeable ones in the forum.