Teterow Germany Gp Saturday 9th September

[tarkens]

I think you're forgetting the obvious one - Gary Havelock

[Aces51]

Sam Ermolenko is an undeserving champion. He should've been excluded for stopping in front of Billy Hamill, causing him to crash.

 

Hans Nielsen should have been the rightful winner.

Perhaps, instead of saying undeserving I should have said name a winner who wasn't a worthy World Champion. Ermelenko was and Havelock arguably was but Jerzy Szczakiel never really performed at that level after winning the title.

[Terry]

Perhaps, instead of saying undeserving I should have said name a winner who wasn't a worthy World Champion. Ermelenko was and Havelock arguably was but Jerzy Szczakiel never really performed at that level after winning the title.

 

Egon Muller was the same. He had a few decent world finals before his win, but didn't do much after.

[False dawn]

Now you're into semantics. You must, to the satisfaction of the majority at least, define worthy.

Just to illustrate the difficulty...,

There are many that say that Mr Doyle would have made a worthy champion last year. Well maybe. But had the WC been held in Slovenia, Poland, Denmark, Britain or Sweden as a one off final instead of the GPs held on those dates, then the World Champ would have been Peter Kilderman or Tai Woffinden or Magic Janowski or Antonio Lindback or Greg Hancock. Would they have not been worthy champions?

So maybe a worthy GP champion is the one that wins the most GPs. But then what about Mark Loram? (BTW that makes Magic the most worthy champion so far this year). Or scores the most points? Listen to the Greg Hancock critics on that score.

 

One man's worthy is another man's "I can't stand the sight of him".

 

Fans have been having this debate since the year dot. Fun isn't it?

[BWitcher]

 

Sam Ermolenko is an undeserving champion. He should've been excluded for stopping in front of Billy Hamill, causing him to crash.

 

Hans Nielsen should have been the rightful winner.

 

Misunderstood the question entirely.

 

Sam Ermolenko was by far the best rider in the world in 1993 and as such was a worthy World Champion and would almost certainly have won the World Title under a GP system that year.

 

As for your reference to him not being excluded, that's just the luck on the day which can be talked about in many cases over the years. You seem to be forgetting though, had he been excluded, everything after that changes, who is to say he would still have run a last in his final race, one in which he flew from the start.

 

 

I think you're forgetting the obvious one - Gary Havelock

 

Far from obvious.

 

Havelock was dominant in that particular year, winning or finishing on the rostrum in most, if not all, the qualifying rounds. Again under a GP system he would have been right up there in that particular year.

[racers and royals]

Video- Danish commentary https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdlngRqokt4

English commentary https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNFeEKg85Tw

short version all races- Polish https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlLN3-S4OsQ

[waiheke1]

I'm not arguing for or against the GP's but name an undeserving World Champion from the one off finals. Maybe Jerzy Szczakiel but I can't think of any others.

Depends what you mean by undeserving. But if it's a rider who was never in the top 2 or3 riders in the world in any given year, then you would definitely add Egon to the list. Maybe Havvy. That's probably about it.

I'd also note that if last night was a world final, then surely Doyle would be a deserved world champ?

And what an awful gp that was. not helped by it being a disastrous night for Woffy. Surely the title gone now but a medal is still up for grabs if he can turn it on for the remaining meetings.

[r8gdp]

Title going to Doyle if he can avoid accident s (last year) he s been the best again this year seems to be able to pull out a great start from any gate when needed .

Dudek riding along nicely should pick up a medal which is good news for cook

Don t know if janowski can hold off lindgren who is battling away for every point

Woffy needs to start the fire in the steam train to get it moving again just doesn't seem to have that buzz this year

It s going to get tight for that last qualifying place zager needs to have a good run in the last 3 gps same for valicuk who seemed to have more fight in him last night

The track last night was rubbish but those who wanted it battled away it was the same for everyone

[Phil The Ace]

Made a late choice to dash over for this one.

 

Flew to Hamburg, hired a car and got here a few hours later.

 

Would I do it again????? Hmmmmmmmmm

 

If you have ever been to a festival, the co editions were the same here. Everything is grass, and with the rain it had for passed few days it made it all a swamp. Hope no one was wearing there best gear.

 

The car park which was a mud bath had no lights so it was pitch black and very dangerous.

 

The track weirdly was good for this it looked from when I first got there. Bit it produced no racing what so ever.

 

The food was great, really happy zagar one, he also broke the track record in one race.

 

It's a really nice set up And stadium. But it's no where near ready for a GP.

 

I had fun though

[BUDGIE]

What an absolutely awful GP. Back to being in a field in Germany, Thought we were over that! Sure they had weather problems but last nights 'entertainment' was very very poor.

Looks like Doyle will be World Champion this year and who can say that he doesnt deserve it after he was by far the best rider last year only to be denied by injury, and currently is at the top of the pile by 10 points.

[speedibee]

Rubbish stadium, rubbish racing. Nothing at all to enjoy. Needs to be knocked off the GP calendar. Eith the Germans come up with a better stadium or its left off. Nothing redeeming about it sorry to say.

There was a nice one in Gelsenkiirken , and they were all set to try a radical new approach to track building , getting the spectators to bring the shale in with them when they took their seats, sadly some idiot left the shale uncovered and there weren't enough polystyrene cups to go round to bring it in ,so it had to be abandoned last minute ,

What an absolutely awful GP. Back to being in a field in Germany, Thought we were over that! Sure they had weather problems but last nights 'entertainment' was very very poor.

Looks like Doyle will be World Champion this year and who can say that he doesnt deserve it after he was by far the best rider last year only to be denied by injury, and currently is at the top of the pile by 10 points.

I can , the rider who deserves to win will be the one with the most points after the last GP , not not because of any incident last year .. you don't get world titles because you deserve them otherwise whats the point of the series .

Imagine winning a GP and finding out that that's the trophy!! ebay?

there was another trophy ,but that was kept in case Doyle didn't choke at the last minute , a much bigger and better trophy because "He deserves it "

Always wondered why when a track is wet and the meeting goes ahead (just), why don't they have the riders just blasting round to turn the dirt over an hour or so before the meeting, (maybe even have locals on standby so no one gets an advantage)..

 

4 riders doing 40 laps would replicate ten heats..

 

Every time I see a meeting like this the racing improves as it slickens off and the thick dirt/mud/slime gets moved out..

 

It just happens too late to make the meeting entertaining..

sidecars would do and even better job , or even quads

[ray c]

Well done jason nearly there

[Terry]

 

Misunderstood the question entirely.

 

Sam Ermolenko was by far the best rider in the world in 1993 and as such was a worthy World Champion and would almost certainly have won the World Title under a GP system that year.

 

As for your reference to him not being excluded, that's just the luck on the day which can be talked about in many cases over the years. You seem to be forgetting though, had he been excluded, everything after that changes, who is to say he would still have run a last in his final race, one in which he flew from the start.

 

 

 

 

 

I haven't misunderstood the question at all. He clearly should have been excluded for bringing another rider down.

He may have won his last race if he needed to, but we'll never know.

It's no good saying "if it was a gp system," the fact is it was a one-off meeting which had an undeserved winner.

 

Of course Ermolenko was a worthy world champion, being one of the worlds best...But that wasn't the question.

 

Anyway, under a gp system Nielsen would most likely have won every year from 83.

[norbold]

There again was Lionel Van Praag a worthy winner in 1936? Bluey Wilkinson scored a maximum in the final, with Van Praag only winning because he carried forward more bonus points. Jack Parker was top of the averages that year.

 

 

 

(The answer by the way is yes of course he was a worthy world champion because he won it under the rules pertaining at the time - as every other World Champion has, which makes them all worthy winners.)

[BUDGIE]

 

I can , the rider who deserves to win will be the one with the most points after the last GP , not not because of any incident last year .. you don't get world titles because you deserve them otherwise whats the point of the series . surely the man with most points will win not deserve to.

Surely the one with the most points will win unless they change the rules, haha, so no need to deserve it?

By the way for no apparent reason I dislike Doyle, but that doesnt mean that I dont recognise that hes been the best rider in the world over the last 18 months

[speedibee]

Surely the one with the most points will win unless they change the rules, haha, so no need to deserve it?

By the way for no apparent reason I dislike Doyle, but that doesnt mean that I dont recognise that hes been the best rider in the world over the last 18 months

makes no odds whether I like him or not ,( I don't think theres an question about that ) In 1 year Hans Nielsen went a whole season without being beaten at Oxford and won almost every race at away tracks , he was far and away the best rider in the world , Didn't win the world championship theough ,because someone scored more points than he did , What Doyle has done in the last 18 months in speedway terms .counts for about the same as Woffinden collecting money for chariity ....Nothing ,

[False dawn]

There again was Lionel Van Praag a worthy winner in 1936? Bluey Wilkinson scored a maximum in the final, with Van Praag only winning because he carried forward more bonus points. Jack Parker was top of the averages that year.

 

(The answer by the way is yes of course he was a worthy world champion because he won it under the rules pertaining at the time - as every other World Champion has, which makes them all worthy winners.)

Interesting. Maybe the question should be "Was the system of determining the World Champion, worthy?".

Just to complicate the discussion, there was a speedway Hall of Fame (not the several goes we've had on here but one announced by Briggo, I think) some years ago. It automatically contained all the previous World Champions, which, at the time I thought made it a bit pointless. To be a "worthy" enshrinee (what the US call their NFL Hall of Famers) surely you would have to be more worthy than simply winning the World Championship. Indeed there is a case for a handful of riders who never won the Championship.

[waiheke1]

 

I haven't misunderstood the question at all. He clearly should have been excluded for bringing another rider down.

He may have won his last race if he needed to, but we'll never know.

It's no good saying "if it was a gp system," the fact is it was a one-off meeting which had an undeserved winner.

 

Of course Ermolenko was a worthy world champion, being one of the worlds best...But that wasn't the question.

 

Anyway, under a gp system Nielsen would most likely have won every year from 83.

Ok so by that logic you could argue that Penhall wasnt a worthy winner in 82, Nielsen not in 86, countless other examples.

I don't think that was what was intended by the question at all though..

makes no odds whether I like him or not ,( I don't think theres an question about that ) In 1 year Hans Nielsen went a whole season without being beaten at Oxford and won almost every race at away tracks , he was far and away the best rider in the world , Didn't win the world championship theough ,because someone scored more points than he did , What Doyle has done in the last 18 months in speedway terms .counts for about the same as Woffinden collecting money for chariity ....Nothing ,

Not sure this is right, Nielsen went all of 86 unbeaten AWAY from home and almost unbeaten at home, but did win the world championship that season. I don't think he was unbeaten at home in 84,85 or 88 which would be the other years you could be talking about.

Valid argument though , the only deserving winner is the winner! Not sure I agree entirely but that could just be because you are a seether...

[SCB]

"Worthy". The issue here is we all have slightly differing ideas. You could argue that any man (woman or child) who plays the system and wins is worthy. Doesn't make them the best though.

 

We could (probably will) argue his forever but I'd argue that, using the Hans Nielsen going pretty much unbeaten all year for Oxford and not winning the World Title shows that while he clearly had the talent and the mind set for for league racing and was one of the best that year he didn't have the mind-set to win the World Title and do "it" when it mattered. Being World Chanpion to me is about the whole package, not just being able to ride a bike but the technical side and the head game. In fact the head game is far more important IMO.

 

We can talk about greatest evers, we can talk about most talented, we can talk about World Champions. They're all different things. Different things that are strongly linked but there are differences. Leigh Adams was one of the most talented riders, certainly of his generation but Nicki Pedersen who imo isn't "that" talented won titles just down to his mind set. Probably loads of other examples throughout history.

[Terry]

Ok so by that logic you could argue that Penhall wasnt a worthy winner in 82, Nielsen not in 86, countless other examples.

I don't think that was what was intended by the question at all though..

 

 

The original question asked by Aces51 was "name an underserving world champion," the word 'worthy' only came up after I'd posted.

Of course Penhall and Nielsen were both worthy champions, but if the question was still 'deserving' for those particular world finals, I'd say that Penhall was and Nielsen wasn't.