Club Owned Speedway Sealed Engines...

[Gresham]

...I know this has been spoken about before. And forum members have given their views etc...but has it ever been asked of the riders?

 

If so...what is their opinion?

 

If not...Could someone like the Speedway Star ask them?

 

Do Riders want full control over their own engines, or would they consider riding for British Clubs if the Clubs owned or the BSPA owned the engines?

 

Without going into it all again...for those who haven't thought about it.

 

The premise...to take away the spiralling costs of maintaining and tuning a Speedway engine.

 

Basic idea...

 

Clubs/BSPA do a deal with someone like JAWA, GM, GTR...to provide basic sealed engines that are tuned to last longer. All built to the same spec.

 

Riders pick lots for engine at meeting and provide their own rolling chassis. Can alter everything on bike, except engine.

 

Engines given back at end of meeting.

 

Riders would earn less, but wouldn't have the maintenance and tuning costs.

 

Money saved by Clubs paying riders, goes towards engines etc.

 

Obviously there are so many questions to how this could be achieved...but I'm really interested in whether the riders would be interested in such an idea.

 

The idea, to make riding Club speedway less expensive, put everyone on an even keel ( not 100%...but better than now ), take away the element of having 7 individuals providing random machinery on the day and a team manager and calling it a 'Team'.

 

If riders want to partake in Individual events, then do it with their own machinery paid for by themselves or sponsors. It also takes away the riders being paid money by British Clubs, and then the riders using it on Engines for Leagues in Poland and Sweden etc.

 

It's massively different to how the sport is run and the riders mentality would have to completely change, especially about 'exact personal set ups'...but imo, for the sport to continue in this country, it really does to do something drastic.

 

This would be my ideal...however....would love to know what the riders would feel about it....and not just the fans.

 

[foamfence]

...I know this has been spoken about before. And forum members have given their views etc...but has it ever been asked of the riders?

 

If so...what is their opinion?

 

If not...Could someone like the Speedway Star ask them?

 

Do Riders want full control over their own engines, or would they consider riding for British Clubs if the Clubs owned or the BSPA owned the engines?

 

Without going into it all again...for those who haven't thought about it.

 

The premise...to take away the spiralling costs of maintaining and tuning a Speedway engine.

 

Basic idea...

 

Clubs/BSPA do a deal with someone like JAWA, GM, GTR...to provide basic sealed engines that are tuned to last longer. All built to the same spec.

 

Riders pick lots for engine at meeting and provide their own rolling chassis. Can alter everything on bike, except engine.

 

Engines given back at end of meeting.

 

Riders would earn less, but wouldn't have the maintenance and tuning costs.

 

Money saved by Clubs paying riders, goes towards engines etc.

 

Obviously there are so many questions to how this could be achieved...but I'm really interested in whether the riders would be interested in such an idea.

 

The idea, to make riding Club speedway less expensive, put everyone on an even keel ( not 100%...but better than now ), take away the element of having 7 individuals providing random machinery on the day and a team manager and calling it a 'Team'.

 

If riders want to partake in Individual events, then do it with their own machinery paid for by themselves or sponsors. It also takes away the riders being paid money by British Clubs, and then the riders using it on Engines for Leagues in Poland and Sweden etc.

 

It's massively different to how the sport is run and the riders mentality would have to completely change, especially about 'exact personal set ups'...but imo, for the sport to continue in this country, it really does to do something drastic.

 

This would be my ideal...however....would love to know what the riders would feel about it....and not just the fans.

 

While it sounds ideal, some riders seem to be strongly opposed to it, when there was suggestion of the sealed GTRs being used in that manner there was a lot of opposition, mind you, if it ever did happen they would be forced to accept it. It might be good if a sponsor could be found so that some challenge matches could be tried.

[eric i]

Top riders have made a great investment in machinery to gain an advantage, understandably they don't want it to disappear. However if they could still use their own equipment in individual meetings and on the continent I see no reason why it couldn't be done.

[FAST GATER]

I have always said that s/way is a team sport ridden by individuals and there in lies the problem IMO,there are very few riders who are true team players as in general they are paid on their results not the teams.I am sure there are incentives ( bonus points to follow team mate ) for the team winning but these are vastly outweighed by lining one's own pockets and keeping personal sponsors happy .

 

Riders are fickle by nature in my experience and selfish ( not that in some respects that is a bad thing) what you propose would have to be enforced by the governing body IMO .Otherwise it would never happed as the only increased power and items which enhance the appearance of the bike are embraced by riders regardless of the cost which is quite ironic really!!!

Edited August 8, 2017 by FAST GATER

[Guest]

While it sounds ideal, some riders seem to be strongly opposed to it, when there was suggestion of the sealed GTRs being used in that manner there was a lot of opposition, mind you, if it ever did happen they would be forced to accept it. It might be good if a sponsor could be found so that some challenge matches could be tried.

 

What sort of outlay would a sponsor be facing if your proposition was followed through foamfence?

[foamfence]

 

What sort of outlay would a sponsor be facing if your proposition was followed through foamfence?

I would imagine a minimum of eight bikes, wasn't something like that happening when the Honda engines were being tried? Some flat track engines (450 motocross) can be fitted with a heavier flywheel, I believe there are some being used in UK flat track bikes now, so that would be another possibility, basically the F2 bikes that are still doing the rounds. There is also the 2 valve upright Jawa engine that has been developed, that's another possibility but you'd need a different diamond to accommodate them.

[The White Knight]

I would imagine a minimum of eight bikes, wasn't something like that happening when the Honda engines were being tried? Some flat track engines (450 motocross) can be fitted with a heavier flywheel, I believe there are some being used in UK flat track bikes now, so that would be another possibility, basically the F2 bikes that are still doing the rounds. There is also the 2 valve upright Jawa engine that has been developed, that's another possibility but you'd need a different diamond to accommodate them.

Really?

 

Sounds good to me.

[Gresham]

If I was in control of British Speedway...I'd be approaching JAWA to produce speedway engines for the Clubs to own.

 

Get a deal done. Call it the JAWA British League.

 

Pay for the engines over a period of time. To keep initial costs down.

 

Basic sealed engine, like the off the shelf engines they supply now.

 

Have a supply of engines that the BSPA hand out at each meeting...with each individual rider supplying their own rolling chassis.

 

Riders paid a wage rather than per point. Bonuses for wins. This happens now with some riders already.

 

Less wages paid to riders...they don't need money for maintenance and tuning costs. Money saved by Clubs, put back into the sport.

 

Everyone racing on the same engine, that is sealed and off the shelf.

 

If the top boys don't like it, then tough, go and ply your trade elsewhere.

 

Imo, the engines and bikes used now are really only conducive for the large tracks in Poland.

 

EVERYTHING...is Polish lead.

 

Half the problems with British Speedway, when it comes to racing on the tracks, is that these Engines are not suited to smaller tighter tracks.

It's like trying to race an F1 car around a village streets.

 

We need engines and bikes that suit our tracks.

 

If we continue in the same vein, then it will only get worse. Riders are trying to make these already too 'hi reving' engines, go faster.

 

Would rather watch Championship standard riders like we saw in the Lynn v Somerset match last night, with NL boys coming into the mix, than the GP boys who's main goal is individual glory.

[Lord Skid]

Well, at least they've got the supply of engines sorted, what's the next step then

?

Anymore crackpot ideas.

[Gresham]

Well, at least they've got the supply of engines sorted, what's the next step then

?

Anymore crackpot ideas.

I think it's a crackpot idea, to get 7 riders providing their own bikes, of which you have no idea of what quality they are on the day, then get them together, chuck in a team manager and call them a 'Team'.

 

Perhaps that's why Speedway is falling apart at the seems.

 

Every Club is dependent on the riders providing their own engines. We all know what they are capable of in ability.

 

What's most frustrating for any fan, is seeing one of your team struggling, because he's screwed up his equipment up in previous meetings, can't afford to replace it, or has his best engines in Poland now and riding some cobbled together machine that isn't competitive....until he can afford to get competitive again.

 

Seems to me, that Speedway shot itself in the foot from the start, by allowing Club Speedway to evolve the way it has.

 

I know....lets get riders to bring their own equipment, of various standards and we'll call them a Team...right...ok

[Eastville Bulldog]

One other issue is the fact that no two engines are the same. Two identical off the shelf engines could be as much as 4 or 5 horsepower difference, giving a rider an advantage over a team mate. In theory all engines would need dyno testing before each meeting and something done to bring all to the same standard. Different engines may wear at different rates and in different parts. Keeping a 'level playing field' would be a nightmare.

[Gresham]

One other issue is the fact that no two engines are the same. Two identical off the shelf engines could be as much as 4 or 5 horsepower difference, giving a rider an advantage over a team mate. In theory all engines would need dyno testing before each meeting and something done to bring all to the same standard. Different engines may wear at different rates and in different parts. Keeping a 'level playing field' would be a nightmare.

Yes...I understand that, and agree. But it's pretty much like that now, with the 'have' and the 'have nots' in a team. Those who have money and sponsorship can afford better tuned engines, so the playing field isn't level as it is.

 

At least this idea, in theory, would cut down riders, spending ridiculous amounts of money on tuning and maintenance and endless hours doing so.

 

The drawing of lots, would also over a season even out.

 

Is that horsepower much different to having someone say like Rohan Tungate riding against Joe Screen or Andy Smith?

 

I'm sure there are a 1000 and 1 issues that would have to be thought about...but Speedway imo, can't keep going down the same route it's doing at Club level.

 

And for me...taking away the rider involvement in engines for Clubs, is a good start.

[Tsunami]

One other issue is the fact that no two engines are the same. Two identical off the shelf engines could be as much as 4 or 5 horsepower difference, giving a rider an advantage over a team mate. In theory all engines would need dyno testing before each meeting and something done to bring all to the same standard. Different engines may wear at different rates and in different parts. Keeping a 'level playing field' would be a nightmare.

Agreed.

1 Best engine picked by the worst rider, the best rider will be claiming his doesn't work, and will be borrowing the reserves engine.

2 Best rider has a poor night, he will blame the engine, and will want his points money topped up to compensate him.

[FAST GATER]

Agreed.

1 Best engine picked by the worst rider, the best rider will be claiming his doesn't work, and will be borrowing the reserves engine.

2 Best rider has a poor night, he will blame the engine, and will want his points money topped up to compensate him.

You are right of course the last place rider looks for issues is with himself but IMO the best riders are not always winning as they should but lesser riders on better machinery often have the edge .

[ruffdiamond]

Agreed.

1 Best engine picked by the worst rider, the best rider will be claiming his doesn't work, and will be borrowing the reserves engine.

2 Best rider has a poor night, he will blame the engine, and will want his points money topped up to compensate him.

yeah, but you will always get moaners, (were British and others),,,

I like the idea of drawing lots, maybe all the engines could have names, like Betsy or Gertrude. The draw could be done in front of the early attendees/fans and, I think it would add a bit of something to the meeting, as the fans in time would get to know what engines are what. It could be 'done up' a bit like the lottery.

Edited August 9, 2017 by ruffdiamond

[FAST GATER]

yeah, but you will always get moaners, (were British and others),,,

I like the idea of drawing lots, maybe all the engines could have names, like Betsy or Gertrude. The draw could be done in front of the early attendees/fans and, I think it would add a bit of something to the meeting, as the fans in time would get to know what engines are what. It could be 'done up' a bit like the lottery.

Far too reasonable for s/way sadly could just catch the imagination of fans ,maybe be done in some kind of open meeting to test it

Edited August 9, 2017 by FAST GATER

[Tsunami]

yeah, but you will always get moaners, (were British and others),,,

I like the idea of drawing lots, maybe all the engines could have names, like Betsy or Gertrude. The draw could be done in front of the early attendees/fans and, I think it would add a bit of something to the meeting, as the fans in time would get to know what engines are what. It could be 'done up' a bit like the lottery.

Actually that is how it is done in Japan for their form of speedway on a hard bowl surface. Riders and bikes are kept in cages on the centre green and allocated by a draw. The sport of course is just for betting on, and hence the reason why the need to give the allocation some sort of random credibility in the eyes of the punters.

[ruffdiamond]

Actually that is how it is done in Japan for their form of speedway on a hard bowl surface. Riders and bikes are kept in cages on the centre green and allocated by a draw. The sport of course is just for betting on, and hence the reason why the need to give the allocation some sort of random credibility in the eyes of the punters.

 

what !!!,,, they keep the riders in cages, are they that crazy ?

[balderdash&piffle]

Well, at least they've got the supply of engines sorted, what's the next step then

?

Anymore crackpot ideas.

Whats crackpot about it. This is already done in motor sport very successfully , in series like THE RENAULT CLEO CUP and THE PORCHE CARRERA CUP.

[Gresham]

As someone else said on another thread...some people will only look to find reasons why something won't work, and never offer up alternatives or find a way for things too work.

 

For me...British Club Speedway needs a complete overhaul and to start again.

 

We can't compete with the Poles, and it seems we are getting further apart.

 

We need to go in our own direction.

 

If it means losing riders to the sport in this country because they don't like it, then so be it.

 

I'm sure there would be many enthusiastic riders from other sports like MX...think Bewley...who would love to make a living from riding Speedway for a Club and not having the expensive of having to own and maintain engines.

 

If it meant the 'quality' of riders went backward for a while then so be it...it already is as it stands, and gets weaker every year.

 

Weaker leagues, less top riders, less fans coming through the gate...yet still the same spiralling costs of maintaining speedway engines. Madness.

 

I'd much rather see British Speedway go to two nights a week racing...preferably weekend...for all tracks. Riders have other jobs during the week...or ride abroad, but not for another British Club.

 

No money for points...just a basic weekly wage. Then bonuses given out at the end of the season depending on how they have scored and finished in the league...that would keep them focussed and not just 'turning up'. That already happens with some riders now...so it's nothing new.

 

British Club speedway doesn't fit in with 'Joe Bloggs International Speedway Rider'.

 

It's a garden shed sport in this country...of which the riders think they are the F1 equivalent. Far from it.

 

The money and facilities just don't go hand in hand with what they are trying to portray.

 

Time for massive change if Club Speedway is to continue in this country imo.