Aces51 Posted July 27, 2017 Report Share Posted July 27, 2017 (edited) Given Woffinden was riding as a second string in the 'old format', one in which most riders were increasing their average by at least a couple pts, you've only backed up my argument there. Indeed, you could even argue Woffinden performed below expectations, even for a 7.03 average. You are right, Tungate has only had five meetings, plenty of time for it to go up even further. Your personal principles seem somewhat biased.. there is zero difference between the Woffinden and Tungate signings. My principles are clear, it's those who cannot see that British speedway was being used who need to consider if they are being blinded by bias it other factors. Tungate may improve his average further or he may not, that is a matter of conjecture but it was you who claimed his average was way below his actual level and so far the facts do not support you. However, in truth the real considerations are those that existed at the time the signings were made because that is what we are discussing, not how they did or, in Tungate's case might, turn out. I doubt you will find many who did not think that Woffinden was a far better rider in 2016 than his 7.03 average, look at the comments on here at the time and equally, that Tungate was better than his average, although I think the weight of opinion in his case was less certain. That is why I was concerned about the moral point. I see the situation with Woffinden riding in the World Games in the same light. He just wants to use Team GB, as he did with Wolves, when it suits him and I strongly agree with Rossiter's decision not to pick him. Edited July 27, 2017 by Aces51 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perton Wolf Posted July 27, 2017 Report Share Posted July 27, 2017 My principles are clear, it's those who cannot see that British speedway was being used who need to consider if they are being blinded by bias it other factors. Tungate may improve his average further or he may not, that is a matter of conjecture but it was you who claimed his average was way below his actual level and so far the facts do not support you. However, in truth the real considerations are those that existed at the time the signings were made because that is what we are discussing, not how they did or, in Tungate's case might, turn out. I doubt you will find many who did not think that Woffinden was a far better rider in 2016 than his 7.03 average, look at the comments on here at the time and equally, that Tungate was better than his average, although I think the weight of opinion in his case was less certain. That is why I was concerned about the moral point. I see the situation with Woffinden riding in the World Games in the same light. He just wants to use Team GB, as he did with Wolves, when it suits him and I strongly agree with Rossiter's decision not to pick him. So what do you say to Wolves fans who had to put up with a season of below average performances when Woffinden achieved that 7.03 average? That because he's done well abroad since, his past form for Wolves is irrelevant and has been stricken from the history books? We aren't talking about form from half a decade ago or longer, it was relatively recent from only a couple of years ago. It's right that Wolves benefited from his real terms low average as we were the ones who had to put up with his below par performances before, not to mention that he is our Asset - what about Tungate? Somerset never got to see the advantage of his average being reduced....... Which is fair enough for Belle Vue and it's their gain, but you can't really argue the moral case here, not a leg to stand on. Add that to the fact that Tungate will probably end up improving his average to a bigger extent than Woffinden would of if he had rode 4 home/4 away for us last season! As for Rossiter, people like him will further see British Speedway decline. You have a World Superstar like Woffinden and instead of at least aiming to come to a compromise with him or even appease him, you completely alienate him. It's called Man Management, an art which has been lost in British Speedway it seems. I'm not sure why so many British fans seem content with finishing 4th place in the SWC when we finished 2nd last season but oh well............ 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted July 27, 2017 Report Share Posted July 27, 2017 (edited) My principles are clear, it's those who cannot see that British speedway was being used who need to consider if they are being blinded by bias it other factors. Tungate may improve his average further or he may not, that is a matter of conjecture but it was you who claimed his average was way below his actual level and so far the facts do not support you. However, in truth the real considerations are those that existed at the time the signings were made because that is what we are discussing, not how they did or, in Tungate's case might, turn out. I doubt you will find many who did not think that Woffinden was a far better rider in 2016 than his 7.03 average, look at the comments on here at the time and equally, that Tungate was better than his average, although I think the weight of opinion in his case was less certain. That is why I was concerned about the moral point. I see the situation with Woffinden riding in the World Games in the same light. He just wants to use Team GB, as he did with Wolves, when it suits him and I strongly agree with Rossiter's decision not to pick him. Woffinden had an average of 7.03 because that was his earned average in a season when he was the reigning World Champion. Upon being brought into the team, riding at 2nd string, he performed around the level you would expect from a 6.00 rider riding in the 2nd string slot. Tungate meanwhile, due to the way Somerset built their team was thrown into the No 1 position, a position far tougher than he had experienced before. As a result his average tumbled. Somerset were stupid enough to release him instead of capitalising on him at reserve. Belle Vue stepped in to sign him, getting rid of a rider who had committed to a full season for them and hadn't under performed, nor was he injured. Indeed it could be said Tungate 'used' Somerset just to get a nice low average to make his move to Belle Vue. Had he joined Poole there is little doubt there would be aspersions cast... The reality is, no matter how much you try and squirm, Belle Vue have done exactly the same thing Wolves did. If one team lacks morals, so does the other. The reality is also, Tungate is a far bigger bargain. I understand, it's tough, you need someone to blame for another year without winning the league. It seems Belle Vue have become the Liverpool of Speedway.. maybe it will be 'your year' this time. As for your principles, you must have been most upset when Belle Vue signed Jason Crump in August 2009, how dare Crump use British Speedway like that! Edited July 27, 2017 by BWitcher 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aces51 Posted July 27, 2017 Report Share Posted July 27, 2017 (edited) The fact that Woffinden had a poor season doesn't entitle you to get him back on that average. It happens all of the time. We had Bjerre in 2006, an asset who had a very poor season recovering from his injury in 2005. We persevered with him the whole season and then he signed for Peterborough in 2007. I remember fans complaining that he left after the club has stood by him but I don't recall anyone saying we were entitled to benefit from his likely improved performance in 2007. My view is that riders who are not racing in the UK should come back on an average based on their current form in whichever foreign leagues they are riding. It is relatively easy to agree a conversion factor for each foreign league. As for Tungate, Somerset sacked him, they can hardly complain or feel aggrieved if another club decide to take a chance and sign him. Woffinden seems to want everything to revolve around him but it does seem to somewhat destroy his credibility to refuse to ride in the SWC until they do this his way but then want to ride in the World Games, which just happens to be at his Polish home track. I think it true that no rider can be bigger than the team. If he wants to change things he has to do it by example and persuasion from within the team. In any event I am far from convinced that being an exceptional rider necessarily means that you have the ability to teach others or that what works for you will work for everyone. The reality is, no matter how much you try and squirm, Belle Vue have done exactly the same thing Wolves did. If one team lacks morals, so does the other. The reality is also, Tungate is a far bigger bargain. I understand, it's tough, you need someone to blame for another year without winning the league. It seems Belle Vue have become the Liverpool of Speedway.. maybe it will be 'your year' this time. As for your principles, you must have been most upset when Belle Vue signed Jason Crump in August 2009, how dare Crump use British Speedway like that! It's a shame you feel it necessary to be so childish. Edited July 27, 2017 by Aces51 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted July 27, 2017 Report Share Posted July 27, 2017 Woffinden and his situation with Team GB is an entirely different issue and has no relevance to the discussion. Although your fascination with it does reveal the real truth behind your claims of 'immorality'. It's just another excuse to bash a rider you don't like. As I've mentioned above, I don't remember you having any issue with a certain Jason Crump 'using' Britain when he signed for Belle Vue in August 2009. As for converting averages.. far too much of that in the sport as it is. Woffinden had a perfectly valid average, achieved pretty recently in a year where he was World Champion. An average, which I do admit, was a little on the high side given his actual performance. Wolves took that gamble signing him on that high average and fortunately they got away with it. Indeed we also suffered when Woffinden convinced Peter Karlsson to use his engine, adversely effecting the Swede's form. 6+1 from 3 completed rides on his own machinery including beating Cook from the back and all over Nicholls.. to picking up 8 from 5 with one of those points gifted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin wood Posted July 27, 2017 Report Share Posted July 27, 2017 To me and other fans winning the league means topping the table at the end of the season .We did that last year.Play offs are a different competition.League champions when finishing third or fourth doesn't sit right with me.Not having a go by the way I'm just not a fan of the play offs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KIRKYLANE Posted July 27, 2017 Report Share Posted July 27, 2017 The play offs are an important part of the Tv coverage and here to stay Rugby went down the same road as Speedway and then came back to it's senses and had the team that topped the league as league champions and a separate trophy for the winners of the play off That is very acceptable in my view... the best of both worlds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted July 27, 2017 Report Share Posted July 27, 2017 To me and other fans winning the league means topping the table at the end of the season .We did that last year.Play offs are a different competition.League champions when finishing third or fourth doesn't sit right with me.Not having a go by the way I'm just not a fan of the play offs. Yep, and you were all partying into the night.. oh wait. No, the reality is you were gutted, Craig Cook was gutted, the Belle Vue team was gutted because you weren't champions. Whether that's right or wrong is another matter, but the reality is, you won nothing. The play offs are an important part of the Tv coverage and here to stay Rugby went down the same road as Speedway and then came back to it's senses and had the team that topped the league as league champions and a separate trophy for the winners of the play off That is very acceptable in my view... the best of both worlds Again, they've done this, but the reality is, the clubs have no real interest in the league winners 'shield'. The 'Champions' are the winners of the Grand Final. Nobody is gutted at just missing out on the 'league winners shield'.. they are devastated at losing the Grand Final. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aces51 Posted July 27, 2017 Report Share Posted July 27, 2017 Woffinden and his situation with Team GB is an entirely different issue and has no relevance to the discussion. Although your fascination with it does reveal the real truth behind your claims of 'immorality'. It's just another excuse to bash a rider you don't like. As I've mentioned above, I don't remember you having any issue with a certain Jason Crump 'using' Britain when he signed for Belle Vue in August 2009. As for converting averages.. far too much of that in the sport as it is. Woffinden had a perfectly valid average, achieved pretty recently in a year where he was World Champion. An average, which I do admit, was a little on the high side given his actual performance. Wolves took that gamble signing him on that high average and fortunately they got away with it. Indeed we also suffered when Woffinden convinced Peter Karlsson to use his engine, adversely effecting the Swede's form. 6+1 from 3 completed rides on his own machinery including beating Cook from the back and all over Nicholls.. to picking up 8 from 5 with one of those points gifted. It's good to see you have a sense of humour. It tells me much about your bias if you really cannot see that it is entirely relevant to refer to Woffinden's attitude to Team GB where he has clearly shown there that he was willing to ride for GB in the World Games because it suited him, just as he was prepared to ride for Wolves simply because his commitments abroad were running out. He used UK speedway in 2016 and wanted to use Team GB this year. As for Crump, he came back on an average of about 11, so no advantage to be gained there, he had ridden in the UK for many years, much longer than Woffinden but he isn't British and was at an age when he didn't think he could maintain his form without reducing his commitments. We were bottom of the league and he helped us out because he was asked to do so. Woffinden saw his commitments abroad were running out and despite his previous comments about UK tracks apparently approached Belle Vue for a place but was turned away and then signed for Wolves. There are considerable difference in the two cases and I saw nothing wrong when Crump joined us. We weren't in contention for anything, we weren't being used, he came on an average that properly reflected his ability and the only benefit was to keep some extra fans for a few meetings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebrum Posted July 27, 2017 Report Share Posted July 27, 2017 surely the point is that rules should be followed. Whatcis the rule that states u get a facility for a rider racing in a relationship scheduled fixture in a foreign league? of course rules are meant to be followed. So what do we do when Poland don't play by the rules?? There is no way any British club should have to be penalised by the bullying Poles. The fact that Woffinden had a poor season doesn't entitle you to get him back on that average. It happens all of the time. We had Bjerre in 2006, an asset who had a very poor season recovering from his injury in 2005. We persevered with him the whole season and then he signed for Peterborough in 2007. Doesn't entitle you no, however if any club should get an entitlement it should be the parent club. Just my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starman2006 Posted July 27, 2017 Report Share Posted July 27, 2017 Doesn't entitle you no, however if any club should get an entitlement it should be the parent club. Just my opinion. Your not entitled to one.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebrum Posted July 27, 2017 Report Share Posted July 27, 2017 Your not entitled to one.. Reason?????? This could be interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ouch Posted July 27, 2017 Report Share Posted July 27, 2017 Woffinden saw his commitments abroad were running out and despite his previous comments about UK tracks apparently approached Belle Vue for a place but was turned away and then signed for Wolves. We never turned him away. He approached us. We informed his promoter about the discussions. Management committee informed us he would come in on an 8. We couldn't accommodate him. He signed for Wolves on a 7. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebrum Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 We never turned him away. He approached us. We informed his promoter about the discussions. Management committee informed us he would come in on an 8. We couldn't accommodate him. He signed for Wolves on a 7. Would seem complete nonsense when you look at the rules it's pretty clear Tai wasn't going to be reassessed. Wonder who is right as Tai was neither 'absent for more than 3 seasons' or 'absent for a season thru injury??? 16.2.3 AMENDED MA’s may be either Established or Assessed MA’s that have been amended with the Approval of the BSPA GC or MC for: a) Riders who have been absent from British League racing for more than 3 seasons (NB. The MA may be increased or decreased). Riders who have been absent for more than 1 full season due to injury. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trees Posted July 29, 2017 Report Share Posted July 29, 2017 AND therein lays one of speedway's major issues. No sooner have fans built up a rapport with a rider then they are forced to let him go. If a team wants to keep an unchanged team from one season to another they should be allowed to do so. All this dumbing down (among a multitude of other reasons) is helping to kill British speedway.If BV want to keep certain riders they can, teams can and usually do keep the majority of their riders. If we are gonna always strive to have equally built teams then one or two changes do have to happen to the more successful clubs of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHILIPRISING Posted July 29, 2017 Report Share Posted July 29, 2017 If BV want to keep certain riders they can, teams can and usually do keep the majority of their riders. If we are gonna always strive to have equally built teams then one or two changes do have to happen to the more successful clubs of course. UNFORTUNATELY averages and points limits never have and never will achieve equality in team building. In reality riders are human beings, not a number. A rider could well achiever a certain average racing on a particular track but get nowhere near it elsewhere. It isn't an exact science and doesn't work. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestGorton1884 Posted July 29, 2017 Report Share Posted July 29, 2017 (edited) Wolves did nothing wrong by bringing 'their' asset back for the business end of last season , And deserved to be champions . But comparing the Woffinden move to Tungate is ridiculous. Tungate was sacked by Somerset for a series of low scores , and yes he may very well improve his average at BV But being allowed to draft in the current world champion just in time for the play offs, is completely different Edited July 29, 2017 by WestGorton1884 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebrum Posted July 29, 2017 Report Share Posted July 29, 2017 Wolves did nothing wrong by bringing 'their' asset back for the business end of last season , And deserved to be champions . But comparing the Woffinden move to Tungate is ridiculous. Tungate was sacked by Somerset for a series of low scores , and yes he may very well improve his average at BV But being allowed to draft in the current world champion just in time for the play offs, is completely different Isn't it awful that poor Belle Vue have to work on a budget (apparently). Some still have that green eyed monster syndrome. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestGorton1884 Posted July 29, 2017 Report Share Posted July 29, 2017 Isn't it awful that poor Belle Vue have to work on a budget (apparently). Some still have that green eyed monster syndrome. Not me Steve , didn't think it was fair at the time , probably don't now But Wolves deserved the victory , absolutely smashed the Aces at Monmore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebrum Posted July 29, 2017 Report Share Posted July 29, 2017 Not me Steve , didn't think it was fair at the time , probably don't now But Wolves deserved the victory , absolutely smashed the Aces at Monmore You don't have an agenda WG. Nothing unfair about the move in bringing in your own asset who just happens to be on a low average earned by a season of misery for Wolves fans. If I take my Wolves hat off and see another club bring a club asset back to boost a play off booth then I'd have to say fair play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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