Belle Vue V Wolves Mon 24/7/17

[Aces51]

Tungate's average was current whereas Woffinden's wasn't and you completely ignore that a significant difference with Tungate is that Woffinden was just using British speedway because his income was drying up elsewhere.

 

You may not regard moral objections as worth considering and as a clear difference between the two situations but to some it is an important point of principle.

[WestGorton1884]

 

Exactly.

 

There were no 'friends' in this instance, just someone with a beef over Wolves signing Woffinden last season.. but strangely, no problem with signing Tungate.

[BWitcher]

Tungate's average was current whereas Woffinden's wasn't and you completely ignore that a significant difference with Tungate is that Woffinden was just using British speedway because his income was drying up elsewhere.

 

You may not regard moral objections as worth considering and as a clear difference between the two situations but to some it is an important point of principle.

 

It is completely and utterly irrelevant regardless of how you dress it up.

 

The significant difference with Tungate is his average was way below his actual level, Woffinden's as proved on track was about right.

 

Both were signings made by teams who saw an opportunity to strengthen.

 

If you want to bring 'morals' into it, it's hardly 'moral' kicking out Sedgeman who was doing his job and wasn't injured. No difference at all between the signings.

 

There are many things wrong with the sport, these aren't part of it.

 

Doubling Up is where folk should be looking as an example of eroding team identity.

Edited July 27, 2017 by BWitcher

[WestGorton1884]

Maybe you could cut down on the facetious attitude, that'd be a start

My main point is newcomers to the sport can't understand why teams have to be ' Weakened ' because they were successful the previous season?

Edited July 27, 2017 by WestGorton1884

[bruno]

It was seen as quite different to the normal team changes made by most teams during a season.

Belle Vue fans accepted that what Wolves did in bringing in Woffinden was within the rules. It wasn't the making of a change in the team that caused them to feel that it was morally wrong but that Woffinden was on an average which did not reflect his current ability coupled with believing that he was just using British speedway because his other commitments were drying up.

Personally, I can't pretend that I liked to see the UK being used in this way but accepted the reality that many teams would have done the same given an opportunity to bring him in. Obviously, those in charge of the sport were concerned that a similar situation shouldn't happen this year and changed the rules.

The six words after obviously have thrown me, didn't realise there was anyone Edited July 27, 2017 by bruno

[waiheke1]

It's ridiculous to argue that belle Vue are morally ok but not wolves. Both sides got a rider on a legitimate bargain average.

Not sure why you'd say tai was "using" British speedway, I'd say British speedway did quite well out of it as well via increased crowds.

FWIW I think the earlier cut off for team changes is the right move, but I'm not going to whinge about wolves making a change that was within the rules and struggle to see anything remotely morally wrong.

I would say that every year an average should be assigned to all riders based on their performance in top leagues the previous season if they did not ride EL. But there is no such system and Tai had a recent average from a season he was world champ.

[BWitcher]

SPEAKING for myself, I never suggested that you couldn't change a team, only that you are not forced to at the end of a season.

 

I agree for the most part.

 

For the past 10+ years the top flight has consistently weakened it's product. Crowds fall, weaken the product, crowds fall, weaken the product. It's an unsustainable model. It's not the whole issue, but it's part of it.

[waiheke1]

 

I agree for the most part.

 

For the past 10+ years the top flight has consistently weakened it's product. Crowds fall, weaken the product, crowds fall, weaken the product. It's an unsustainable model. It's not the whole issue, but it's part of it.

The issue then isn't the existence of the points limit, but the level it is set at. But of course the issue then is filling teams to a decent points limit when promoters can't/won't spend enough to attract the top riders, and the haphazard scheduling also makes riders reluctant to ride in the uk.

[BWitcher]

The issue then isn't the existence of the points limit, but the level it is set at. But of course the issue then is filling teams to a decent points limit when promoters can't/won't spend enough to attract the top riders, and the haphazard scheduling also makes riders reluctant to ride in the uk.

 

Spot on.

 

Whilst the sport in this country continues to run as it is with a scattered fixture list it will never climb back to it's previous standing. It can't even arrange fixtures to avoid clashes between riders just racing in this country so there really is little hope.

[stevebrum]

So what are the scb going to do about Thorsell? Guess we will know tomorrow.

guess you had the answer then? As expected nothing to answer to.

[waiheke1]

guess you had the answer then? As expected nothing to answer to.

Tbf shovvy was right. If wolves agree eld to release him there should have been no facility. If they didn't it should have been a 28 day ban.

[stevebrum]

Tbf shovvy was right. If wolves agree eld to release him there should have been no facility. If they didn't it should have been a 28 day ban.

Appears not then.

About time the BSPA stopped penalising clubs and riders from the actions of the bullying Poles afaic.

[waiheke1]

Appears not then.

About time the BSPA stopped penalising clubs and riders from the actions of the bullying Poles afaic.

surely the point is that rules should be followed. Whatcis the rule that states u get a facility for a rider racing in a relationship scheduled fixture in a foreign league?

[BWitcher]

surely the point is that rules should be followed. Whatcis the rule that states u get a facility for a rider racing in a relationship scheduled fixture in a foreign league?

 

I agree rules should be followed.

 

I'm sure Racers and Royals posted somewhere saying the BSPA had made an agreement to cover this situation this year? Why said agreement hasn't been included in the rules is another matter of course.

[Aces51]

It is completely and utterly irrelevant regardless of how you dress it up.

 

The significant difference with Tungate is his average was way below his actual level, Woffinden's as proved on track was about right.

 

Both were signings made by teams who saw an opportunity to strengthen.

 

If you want to bring 'morals' into it, it's hardly 'moral' kicking out Sedgeman who was doing his job and wasn't injured. No difference at all between the signings.

 

There are many things wrong with the sport, these aren't part of it.

 

Doubling Up is where folk should be looking as an example of eroding team identity.

You say the significant difference is that Tungate's average was way below his ability whereas Woffinden's wasn't, proved by his performance. From a rough and ready calculation for all matches since their respective signings Woffinden averaged 1.31 more than his pre-signing average of 7.03 and Tungate 1.32 more than his, which doesn't seem to support your argument.

 

As regards the moral question some may not understand it or think it relevant but that comes down to your personal principles.

 

Clearly the BSPA and SCB thought there was a need to change the rules to try to prevent a similar occurrence this year.

 

I agree there are more important issues affecting the sport but at least this one has been addressed.

Edited July 27, 2017 by Aces51

[waiheke1]

Those stats would indicate Tungate improving his average by a significantly higher percentage than woffy?

And from memory Woffya average would have been inflated by riding in the 2nd string position in last year's format, albeit this would likely be offset by the fact he was up against only the top rival teams.

But the stats are clear, Tungate was on a bargain average compared to Tai.

 

I agree rules should be followed.

 

I'm sure Racers and Royals posted somewhere saying the BSPA had made an agreement to cover this situation this year? Why said agreement hasn't been included in the rules is another matter of course.

And that's fair enough. But if this was Poole imagine the outcry about the lack of transparency.

Not a dig at you, or wolves, but a dig at the inability of the sports governing body to do anything competently.

[SCB]

Lets also not forget that for Wolves to gain from Woffys average, they had to suffer while it drop a couple of seasons earlier. BV didn't have the same hardship with Tungate!

[racers and royals]

 

I agree rules should be followed.

 

I'm sure Racers and Royals posted somewhere saying the BSPA had made an agreement to cover this situation this year? Why said agreement hasn't been included in the rules is another matter of course.

I had to check what I had written-and I quote.

"Every foreign rider on signing his Polish Extraleague contract would have to have the signed paperwork from his other clubs confirming the fact that the polish league club have 1st dabs on his services. the BSPA must have reluctantly agreed to facilities being granted in these circumstances."

 

It was only an observation of the situation- but in fairness to the teams who have riders in the Extraleague and would be seriously weakened in these circumstances then the promoter`s all agreeing to a facility would be the sensible opition

Edited July 27, 2017 by racers and royals

[Aces51]

Those stats would indicate Tungate improving his average by a significantly higher percentage than woffy?

And from memory Woffya average would have been inflated by riding in the 2nd string position in last year's format, albeit this would likely be offset by the fact he was up against only the top rival teams.

But the stats are clear, Tungate was on a bargain average compared to Tai.

And that's fair enough. But if this was Poole imagine the outcry about the lack of transparency.

Not a dig at you, or wolves, but a dig at the inability of the sports governing body to do anything competently.

There are all sorts of factors you can take into account if you really want to analyse those statistics. Woffinden had 10 matches, whereas Tungate had only 5, so Woffinden's figures more likely to be an accurate reflection of his performance. Also, because he has had far fewer meetings Tungate's average is significantly inflated by one meeting, his 13 points last Monday against Wolverhampton. His average for his 4 other meetings is only 0.32 higher than his Somerset average.

 

However, contrary to BWitcher's claim, what the statistics do show is the Woffinden did perform significantly above his starting average.

[BWitcher]

You say the significant difference is that Tungate's average was way below his ability whereas Woffinden's wasn't, proved by his performance. From a rough and ready calculation for all matches since their respective signings Woffinden averaged 1.31 more than his pre-signing average of 7.03 and Tungate 1.32 more than his, which doesn't seem to support your argument.

 

As regards the moral question some may not understand it or think it relevant but that comes down to your personal principles.

 

Clearly the BSPA and SCB thought there was a need to change the rules to try to prevent a similar occurrence this year.

 

I agree there are more important issues affecting the sport but at least this one has been addressed.

 

Given Woffinden was riding as a second string in the 'old format', one in which most riders were increasing their average by at least a couple pts, you've only backed up my argument there.

 

Indeed, you could even argue Woffinden performed below expectations, even for a 7.03 average.

 

You are right, Tungate has only had five meetings, plenty of time for it to go up even further.

 

Your personal principles seem somewhat biased.. there is zero difference between the Woffinden and Tungate signings.

 

 

I had to check what I had written-and I quote.

"Every foreign rider on signing his Polish Extraleague contract would have to have the signed paperwork from his other clubs confirming the fact that the polish league club have 1st dabs on his services. the BSPA must have reluctantly agreed to facilities being granted in these circumstances."

 

It was only an observation of the situation- but in fairness to the teams who have riders in the Extraleague and would be seriously weakened in these circumstances then the promoter`s all agreeing to a facility would be the sensible opition

 

Thanks for clarifying, I knew you'd mentioned it somewhere.

 

Another case of fans being kept in the dark. I agree with others who say that, per the rules, Thorssell should face a 28 day ban.

You're numbers and conclusions are accurate but unfortunately you're wasting your time, bwitcher doesn't understand sums and numbers, you'll just end up going round and round over the same ground. No matter how much you simplify it he won't get it, lol!

 

Having said that comparing the tungate signing to the woofinden one is bad enough, actually accusing someone of hypocrisy because they point out that there is no comparison is just trolling to get a reaction.

 

We're having a sensible conversation here, your attempts to enflame aren't needed.

Edited July 27, 2017 by BWitcher